#360 free machining brass for a head button?

[hugh hargett]

Joe Im just reading now coz its clear people are going to do what they wanna do facts dont even matter here. Bring those motors up to lexington and stop playing games. Honestly I think you could sell them a 2 by 4 right now and theyd buy it from the looks of things. If you would like to entertain eggheads that are interested in "why" "how" or "if" please do. I must say Im really surprized in engineers that have no use for the scientific method or the post about Jim not knowing about the importance of heat in the chamber. Really silly stuff #360 brass or not. Knowing why is important if you plan on advancing motor design. If you just look at the post while defending Steve theyre arguments hurt him too like tether car engines are not the same but yet Steve was the one said they use 360 brass not Jim - Or dynoes put a constant load on a motor and real world changes everything -exactly why you would use a dyno to eliminate real world anomalies and know exactly why or if you see the increase in performance :huh: instead of IMHO's or racers opinions that wanna be Joe W or Julian. So they figure if they buy what they have they can. Buy all the buttons you want you will still eat guys like that wakes. Alot more going on in their boats than some brass buttons trust! Buy what you want ,paint what you want ,bake what you want anything but put it on a dyno and verify it. Im really surprized at some of you guys coz you know better you really do. Either way theres no point of trying to force it down your throat so it is what it is. Run the buttons and have fun with them. I dont Jim thinks he knows it all but you will always have a hard time getting an engineer to turn away from the teachings and methods of folks like Albert E. and the like. I mean hell bringing up Tk's anodizing means what? some of the same folk said hes been trying for a 100 for 15 years - Horrible post but if its true why use his aluminum anodized buttons non #360 brass as a call for whats works well in a brass #360 thread? Some just want them to work. They care less about facts or the truth. Thats crystal clear to me.Bottom line no one respected in the technical or scientific world will accept your findings based on what you have. You need verifyable results that can be duplicated by someone else unbiased to your cause. Accept it or not the earth is still not flat.The most funny thing is Jim had to start this thread to continue the discussion coz when people got proved wrong they started talking around it then the same ones come straight here chiming anyway. SILLY PERIOD! I guess the squish bands thread is the next migration . The truth is some people on IW dont even know who Ed Kalfus is :lol: - pityful.The laws of physics rule us no mater if you like it or not. You will always feel like your going up against a wall if you cant accept that.

Hugh

 

[Chris Wood]

Jim, with all of this "Secret Society" stuff that you are supposedly privy to, you saying that you are the only one right and everyone else is wrong, about the 360 brass head material not making a difference compared to aluminum even though a lot of boaters have tested it and are running it with better performance and you saying the cylinder head temperature does not make any difference in the performance of our boat engines even though that is a proven fact, and a lot of your other incorrect comments that I do not want to be associated with.

I am going to bow out with grace and leave you with your thread. Good luck with your venture.

Charles Perdue

Just one more question, what was the official speed that you ran with your X-hydro when you held the SAW record?

Sorry to see you go, not really! I have NAMBA record sheets all the way back to 1985 & IMPBA sheets back to 1996. I don't see your name listed for any event what so ever. Maybe you ran some with some other organization. The last time I ran straight away in 1994 at a sanctioned NAMBA event, the official speed was 85.88. The boat was a 14 lb modified crapshooter with my engine & prop.

Jim Allen

I dont and wouldnt even play like I do Jim. Whoever made up the theory that you have to race to know engines is a fool point blank it means absolutely nothing to what knowledge a person has in their head. Be happy not everyone is racing coz I can tell you now some of you just had a good boat put in your hand$$$$$. What makes a good fool is not being able to accept info with facts and tested data from info with IMHO's. Send the motors down to Lexington with the brass button in them and DYNO test them ending all the speculation. Joe W Steve Woods said the button he used had a shallower bowl now whats the truth? Is the bowl shallower or not? If you need me to pull the quote from the other thread I can.

Secret societies or whatever foolish charges people wanna make wateva!!!! You dont have to be an engineer to know something but Ill take an ME's tested word over alot of whats been offered here as "what I think". Kill it send the motors!!!and end all talk!!!!!Im sure the 2 cycle forum is set up that way coz engineers dont really care for folks with alot IMHO's they cloud the truth or havent you noticed?? Send the motor for testing might be the one time Jim allows you a FREE pull :blink: . Yeah coz dyno pulls aint free big spenders.

"DYNO PROVEN RESULTS" is a great sales pitch!

If youre the type that doesnt value or gets tired of reading formulas no need to fool with anything technical; especially the operation of an engine. Alot of formulas and math all in it....... You definately arent ready for lamda control of an engine if you get bored with formulas. You wont even be able to set the internal clock on the mcu without some math.

To be quite honest I can take a youtube video's audio and a scope and tell you exactly how many K youre turning.Be careful! Coz I can get the truth from a video with audio. Admittedly I wouldnt know if you were indeed running the brass <_< .

Hugh

any one that knows me will tell you that i don't lie.if i said the bowl is shallower,then it's shallower.

go to my website and watch the video of the g2 blackbird,and listen to us talking.i was using a stalker pro,and quoating speeds.tell me if your audio agrees.that nova did and still does have a 360 brass head button,at .17 cc in it

 

[hugh hargett]

Chris id never call you a liar in fact it was Steve that said the bowl was shallower and I believe him Joe W said it was the same size as the aluminum button both may be true but the way it was presented is foggy between the two you have to go back and see why steve said that to me I asked a question coz a vague claim of higher compression was made with a material change ans I said no way what else is there. The smaller bowl was the reply so then it went to well the brass aint truly the reason for the higher compression and r's then is it?. Unless you have a way to confirm the before brass and after brass button is in before you run etc etc my audio analyzing wont mean much plus how many chances you want to run the same line? This is the whole problem with your version of proof even for you it will be hard to run the same better time over and over again. I really hope for your sake their times drop at the next race coz if they have any issue its your a and rep on the line. If youd dyno your results not even the worst driver could mess it up for you. But go ahead we will wait for the results which even then can be crushed by a few dyno runs.You will prove something that will last possibly only until some one straps it up in the dyno .Jims Job is easy you can go break you neck proving it on the water then alls hes gotta do is strap it up and prove you wrong in a few pulls. You gotta see that man.

 

[tnrcboatracer]

Hugh, you seem to pick and choose what you want out of context. Chris/Steve Wood's comments were about the NR21, Joe W's comments were about his RS101 button. I never said that I had no use for the scientific method. I did say that I didn't need to know the full science behind something to accept it. Just like I don't know exactly how the microchips in my laptop work. I accept that they do and use the technology they provide to my own use. I simply collect data and when I satisfy myself, I apply the technology. I have no desire to advance the state of Nitro Motor Design. I'll leave that to others. I would rather spend time on the water instead of on a dyno. I would rather work on my driving and hull setup skills than have a dyno queen engine.

'nuff said.

 

[hugh hargett]

Tn are you running #360 or Terrys anodized aluminum :huh: ones. I guess im lost as to what your issue even is :huh: .

No tn absolutely not.Im very aware that steve was talking about a nova(i asked him to verify it) and joe is talking about a cmb101 the issue isnt the motors the issue is are the brass buttons direct repalecment for the aluminum ones bowl depth etc. You need to pay attention. You can work on your driving skills and a brass button may never still put you across the line first. The only outta context thing is you answering for Chris. Im the same one that supported your theories on 2.4 radio signal loss you didnt challenge my engineering knowledge then :huh: .Stopp trippin coz we dont agree now. Chris Pm me if you have issue but mind you we are just having a technical debate not a personal argument. I love you guys I really do im just telling you that a dyno result can only help your cause. Again no one has to take it.

I still havent said brass#360 wont work Im saying that Jim allen knows his stuff through formal education in it and years of hands on more than some of us are old not to mention being close personal friends with some of the top engine people in the world as well as one of the founding fathers of sanctioned rc boating ED Kalfus. You guys gotta respect the older guys that paved the way. Jim set records for about 6 or 7 years straight and never brought a production motor or prop out of the store. HOW MANY OF YOU CAN SAY THAT??? You dont see Mr. Davis or Andy brown saying silly stuff like Jim "you dont know the importance of pre chamber heat" come on now thats just plain ole ignorant period. Those guys know Jim Allen and know better than that. Seeings that you didnt even know the man has had a dyno for over 40 years why dont you learn a little about your sport the history of it and who really knows what. I can tell you know Jim doesnt think he knows it all but what he knows he knows **** well. I wont even begin to tell you the great things hes said about Andy Brown, Jack Odonnel , John Beardslee ,Marty Davis and others. Told me straight up Andy taught him alot about props and setups too to go along with 40 plus years of knowledge he raced plenty NAMBA. He raced more than some of you have yet currently back then . He told me Jack was the only person in the world capable of pulling off the bell valve. Do I need to continue????? Go to his gallery and tell me if youre not amazed at what you see. You just cant disregard what this man has done. Hes dedicated his life to building 2 cycle engines and been a major contributor to this sport for many many years. My only purpose here was to make sure good things got said about him too. I dont pm him my support I show it out front where it deserves to be seen. If it were Marty, Andy or anyone of them id support them the same way. Us 30-40 years old aint got nothing on those guys and our s&^T does stink.

the real point of this thread is the top tether guys dont use #360 free machining brass and they DO NOT!

Chris Steve if you guys really think youve found something send one of your setups down and let the man put it up on his dyno he aint gonna lie about the results. That said good luck at the next race.

Chris for fun I will sit down when I get home pull out the scope and see if I can calculate the speed based on audio in you video. Gimme a link and thanks a million for being kind about it

Later

Hugh

 

[tnrcboatracer]

I have no issues and have been paying attention. The topic was/is #360 brass material for head buttons and why it may work better. I have run the TK button when I ran K&B and NR. I am now trying the #360 brass button in my 101RS. The 101RS requires a larger volume button that OEM to run 50% nitro.

I didn't have theories on the 2.4 radio thead, just some knowledge of polarization of wave reflections off water.

"....it was Steve that said the bowl was shallower and I believe him Joe W said it was the same size as the aluminum button both may be true but the way it was presented is foggy...." In reality both buttons were optimized; the 21 is reduced volume, and the 101 is increased volume. Each application is unique.

I agree that Jim A has done amazing things to progress the science and technology of the 2 cycle engine and model boating in general. As have many others that you have mentioned, and others you have not. I have followed Jim's gallery for several years now; long before you have been a member here. But I also think that what he does is far above what 90% have the time or patience to follow through with. I have never said anything the least bit detrimental about Jim or anything he has posted, I do admire and respect what he has done. I am in fact envious of his skills. I don't think Jim needs you to defind him....

Perhaps we will meet at a race sometime, and we can see who is faster or the better driver. I do notice that your IMPBA number is a little high....... :huh:

 

[Chris Wood]

my dad STEVE was the one typing this on MY computer.. i never said anything.

i don't dare get into these 6 page he's right he's wrong topics that this has now turned out to be.

i will say this.. and i would think most people will back me or dad up when i make this statement.

IF ME OR HIM SAY SOMETHING OR DO SOMETHING.. take it to the bank.. no GRAY AREA OR GAMES WITH EITHER OF USE. now you can take that for what ever you like

no offense HUGH i havn't even got a clue who you are? don't take that the wrong way like i know most people will

again this is CHRIS WOOD'S first time on this topic and my last. ROGER OVER

chris

 

[Joe Warren]

It Topic is getting out of context, The following Twin Owners have Brass Heads to race with.. Bullard, Turner, Warren, Almirola,Conde, Simmons... Ortiz just needs to install his. Good Luck trying to run in front of one of these Boats!! My New RS101s with Brass head buttons and .550 bore carbs are bolted in My Dyno for More Testing Next Weekend. Many others are running them too But they are Not Talking about it.......

 

[BigChuck]

Mine Are bolted in and will Dyno on the Holiday Weekend........What is the worst thing that can happen...??? They are the same as the current head. BUT...........If they are NOT..............??????

 

[hugh hargett]

deleted

 

[hugh hargett]

Jeff got your pm thanks

Steve and Chris you are true gentlemen in the sport thank for not getting personal. Good luck at the next event.

 

[Terry Keeley]

Hey Steve:

Gotta ask (since no one else has as far as I can see), how does the volume/shape of your brass buttons (say for the 101) compare to stock?

 

[Jeff Schindler]

To get back on topic... I learned this in ME315 heat transfer at Purdue, and I even passed the class!

This thread is actually about thermodynamics and more specifically, heat transfer through the head button.

Heat transfers several ways, primarily:

(1) Conduction, This is analogous to the flow of electric current. Temperature differential (Voltage) and resistance of the material (inverse of conductivity) drive this flow

(2) Convection, A fluid boundary carries heat away, (best if it if flowing i.e. forced convection)

(3) Radiation, This is a little harder to describe, but it increases with the square of the surface temperature, and has mostly to do with emmisivity of the surface and the surroundings.

(4) Heat/Mass transfer, this is happening a lot in our engines, Its how the heat gets into the chamber, and its ultimately what takes it away.

If you want to analyze this you need to create different control volumes and look at the flow of heat across the borders.

Of course since that is a 3 day ordeal, you have to show a little trust in me to give you the breakown. I have the ME degree, right?

The two things we can change by varying the head button construction the most is conduction, and radiation. By changing the head shape, you can bring convection into play

Here we look at how we can change the amount of heat transfered away from the chamber due to these two paths.

Conduction.

This is purely material property. As the temperature diference across the material rises, the flow of heat rises proportionally. let Q_fx be the heat flow in the x direction and k is the conductivity, then Q_fx = -kdT/dx or Q = -k (T2 - T1)

The thermal conductivities have been listed by several others, and Matweb is a great reference. It seems #360 brass in question has a lower conductivity than the other materials, thus removes less heat from the chamber.

Radiation

This has to due with the emissivity of the boundary surface in relation to its surroundings. There will be a net heat flow which may be positive or negative depending of whether the surroundings are more or less emissivity than the surface in question.

In our example, the emissivity is moslty tied to the reflectivity of the material. If the material is a dull black, it will be the most emissive, and if its highly polished silver, it will be be the least emissive.

 

[Jeff Schindler]

Here are my thoughts.

The brass will not remove the heat as well as the other materials. It has maybe a slightly higher transfer due to radiation, BUT a much more significant reduction due to "poor" conduction.

I also think the brass is a better choice... Its like a cookie with a crisp crust and gooey center. If you made cookies out of aluminum, they would be either all goo, or all crisp and incredibly hard to get right.

The brass button is more forgiving. I also can be beneficial in other ways... If the heat isn't going into the button, it has to got somewhere else or we would overheat the engine. To make up for taking less heat out of the chamber, you must flow more cool fuel. It is cooling by fuel, and not by conduction! Also, with more heat flowing into your pipe, and not into the pond you are getting higher EGTs!! Thats good for a few more RPM if you know how to use it.

Just remember, engineers are not all dull and sour, we like our cookies, and we like them crispy on the outside, and gooey on the inside.

 

[steve wood]

Hey Steve:

Gotta ask (since no one else has as far as I can see), how does the volume/shape of your brass buttons (say for the 101) compare to stock?

if i remember correctly,the stock 1.01 is .82. the ones that i make from 360 brass,are .90,and the stock factory ones i have been opening to .90 -.92 cc.the difference between the aluminum and the brass,besides material,is that you can not go deeper on the aluminum factory button,because the plug will protude into the chamber,you have to widen the bowl,which reduces the squish band width.with the brass(or bar stock aluminum(NOT BILLET,as some people wanna call it by mistake),you can go deeper and maintain the squish band width.9/16 ballmill .238 deep,move out .080 on diameter,then add the 3° squish band .010 deep from the flat,that leaves about a .080 width flat on the outside.there you guys go,go make your own

 

[Chris Wood]

lol

 

[John Beardslee]

I think I've read all of this thread - please excuse me if I missed seeing this. One factor that hasn't been mentioned but you may want to consider is the water volume that is in the waterjacket. Even though we constrict flow with inlet or outlet size, the volume contained in waterjacket will have influence on what goes on inside the combustion chamber.

John

 

[Joe Warren]

A few have figured out that the intake stroke of the Nitro Buring 2 stroke has a Super Cooling Effect to the intake tract and all parts related as it is pratically in liquid form with Methanol.. Then we have the power Stroke .. that Provides the Heat that we would like to retain... The Brass absorbs & retains the Heat longer & does not allow the next intake stroke to drop the temp as low. To say the Brass does not Cool Off between cycles of the engine. When I put my Brass Buttons on my Twin in Huntsville on a Friday ..... I told NO One.... Mark Bullard Knew it the 2nd lap around the lake. He says .... You put those Dam Brass Heads on didnt you? :huh: :huh: I can hear & see the difference. :blink: :blink:............... Some cooling systems I work on daily are in a By-pass mode till they reach operating temp. Then they regulate there cooling by a regulating valve. The Brass will be our new regulating device....... If anything the water can stabilize the operating temp of an engine. But lake water cannot make heat as it is flowing thru the engine or cooling head... but it can Drag the operating temps Down depending on the temp of the water and the speed of the flow... Normally lake water temps are well below what we want for Head Operating temps... P.S.Good Friend Bob Morton says WOOD IS GOOD..... I say... BRASS is BETTER!!!!!!!

 

[Bob Morton]

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[Joe Warren]

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I know you Packing Brass Buttons Uncle Bob.. You seasoned boaters always have a ace up your sleeve. I`am still the beginner compared to You..... Sorry for letting the Cat Get Out of the Bag!!!! While they are still debating if they are Good or Bad ??? We will be Making FAST LAPS..