1/8th Scale FE Rules package for Evansville,Johnson City ,St Ann's, Kenosha etc?

[HTV Boats]

I have run FE for 14 of my 40 years in model boat racing. Setting up multiple boats for myself my son and grandson. We have set records in cat, tunnel, hydro and monos. N,P,Q.S and T.
I have no dogs in the Scale class so just give you my read on 8S. First it is simple to series 4S batteries which are very common and makes running P class an added +. Don is correct on lower amps with higher voltage. Going from 4S to 6S big difference, 8S to 10S not so much. Back to batteries 10S means 2 5S that can't be used in many other classes. Over the years the packs with higher cells seem to drop or loose one cell more often than 2-3-4 cell packs. I have many 6S packs i have reduced to 3 or 4 cells. I am thinking heat in multi cells gets very uneven heat in middle cells and that affects IR so cells discharge at different rates. Warming batteries evenly will help but not always practical. Again I have lost more 6S than 4S packs over the years. 5S I am sure are similar.
Then comes ESC's. I have had MGM, Etti, Swordfish, ZTW, and others but at the end of the day Castle has outperformed them in reliability. At present I would opt for 8S with Castle X2 over any 9-10 controller I have owned. (That is for 40X100+mm cans) Made in the US and if we support Castle they may come out with higher voltage in time. The new Castles are a game changer for FE racing in my mind.
Mic

I was typing while Tyler was posting so we have some similar opinions. (Roaring Tops also)

 

[RaceMechaniX]

Castle are working on a HV version of the XLX2. It will be released as a car version first with a fan, but you can expect they will marinize it after a year or so in the car world. Figure on 2 years before we see it.

 

[DPeterson]

I left electric awhile back with a quite a bit of experience. I have no desire to return but I am building 2 Fe Scales for a couple club members. They will be set up with 8S Graphine cells at 130c 6300mah, TP Motor 860 KV and the new Hydra controller.

Follow what your friends and fella racers are doing. The set up will be fine.

Curious as to the 57mm max prop diameter. Is this for electronic burn down protection for beginners?

Tyler and Mic are right on.

Back to the shop -- Doug

 

[JamesEllet]

Well boys and girls it's time I step in on this one with both feet and if some fragile feelings get hurt it's not intentional but it is what it is. I've been racing scale nitro for over 25 years and FE scale for well over a decade so this isn't just plucked out of thin air....

First and foremost that is most disturbing to me- people are making FE rules who have little to no real world FE experience. This is a train wreck waiting to happen.

Sam- the turning FE scale into a spec class was not really meant as a compliment but more so a why statement.

Duke- sorry but the "8S with 10S is like a 45nitro racing a 67nitro." statement is not an accurate comparison. I will give you one that is though- what you are doing in FE scale is the equivalent of telling the nitro scale guys they have to run a stock motor, no tuned pipe and a 55mm prop. How do you think that would go over?

And Lohring- quit making it sound like NAMBA has been doing it for a long time, your 8s FE scale rule is only a few seasons old.

Now with that out of the way let's talk real world numbers. The formula for FE is simple and unchanging- volts times amps equals watts. It takes a certain amount of wattage to move a given package. You have two ways to achieve that required amount- higher voltage and lower amperage or lower voltage requiring higher amperage. What comes with higher amperage? More heat, the absolute number one killer of electronic components. Let's do a quick example with let's say 3,000 watts being the required wattage to move a properly set up boat with typical loaded pack volts @ 3.7v per cell (not peak just charged voltage)-

8s- 29.6 volts will require 102 amps to achieve 3,000 watts
10s- 37 volts will require 81 amps to achieve 3,000 watts

Which set up do you think will runner cooler? But hey how about looking at what's out there, take Doug Smock's (a VERY experienced FE guy) FE scale for starters. 10s, 850kv motor and 50mm prop that runs upper 50s all day long and stays cool as a cucumber. He's been running the same set up for I think 10 years now and just recently replaced the ETTI 220A Opto ESC ($250) because he just flat wore the original one out. John Finch runs the same set up and has for years as well. I have too as have many others. It flat out works, is more forgiving of set up (read dialing in for optimum performance) and isn't running on the ragged edge of letting out the magic smoke. Your current 8s specs with a 57mm prop won't take but a slight increase in load to potentially start frying things. Good luck when you pick up that little twig or leaf running in the summer when the water is warm. And you're going to need even more luck when trying to field test motor kv, that drill test method has a significant margin for error. Like any other spec class it will become a nightmare for those trying to tech things at races, just like it is now for stock gas classes. If anything consider limiting prop sizes based on cell count, like say 50mm for 10s 54mm for 9s and 57mm for 8s along with an overall motor can limit of 40mm diameter (the vast majority of motors appropriate for scale are 40mm cans) but I would stretch the length limit to 108mm as there are motors out now with thicker billet end plates that are not flush with the can like a NEU motor.

For those of you who are building 8s platforms do yourselves a favor spend the money on a controller that will handle up to 10s so if you want to race where the normal rules apply you can just drop in a 10s cell package, slap on a 50mm prop and be very competitive.

Flame suit now on...................

Thanks for all the info! I know so little on FE it's sad haha. Especially as someone who puts on races. Has Doug posted anywhere what his set up looks like and what all is in it? I'd like to try to know more on it and something I can look at to put together what everyone is talking about.

 

[Don Ferrette]

Thanks for all the info! I know so little on FE it's sad haha. Especially as someone who puts on races. Has Doug posted anywhere what his set up looks like and what all is in it? I'd like to try to know more on it and something I can look at to put together what everyone is talking about.

NEU 1527 1.5Y 850kv motor, ETTI HV Opto Pro ESC (see previously posted link) a pair of 5s packs (not sure if he's still running Hyperions) and a detongued Octura x450/3 blade prop. I've run same set up. So has John Finch, Mike Luszcz (ML Boatworks) and numerous others. Doug is at Sowega this weekend racing and may have limited internet access but I'd bet you could shoot him a p/m to verify.

 

[John Finch]

I am running a neu 1527 1.5y 850k with the ETTI like Don said in my Miss Bardahl. I am using a 4s pack in series with a 6s pack to get my 10s rating. I like using even numbered packs because they provide shorter wiring to the plug end of the pack than the odd number packs. I use 8s in my Oberto that Don Built years ago because I wanted to try an 1100 kv motor and it matched up well with 8s. Don broke the SAW record in the same boat at 100 mph using 10s. I just broke the oval record a couple weeks ago with the same boat on 8s. Record trials you use a lot of amps really quick so you only make a couple passes and your done. Heat racing on the other hand is all about safely being able to run a solid 8 laps on one run without burning everything up. If your prop is too large for 8 laps you are asking for smoke! Bottom line for me to be able to run a warmup lap, 6 racing laps, and one return lap is either one of these two boats with 30 percent battery life left at the end of the run using an x450 three blade with no added pitch. Top speed on both boats is 62 mph as set up like I just said. They are FUN!

 

[Don Ferrette]

OK after seeing this pop up in my Facebook feed I gotta ask why you are limiting motor choices and excluding a motor that has been the backbone of FE scale for many years- the 850kv NEU 1527 1.5y??? Guys like Smock, Finch, myself and others who could just switch out their existing 10s boat to 8s can't run with you all under these rules. So right out of the gate you are excluding some of the most experienced FE scale racers in IMPBA.

And second why only 5 laps??? Once again the aforementioned 10s 850kv x450 prop combo with go 8 laps (1 mill, 6 race laps and 1 return to pits) with plenty left in the packs to not stress them. Right out of the IMPBA rule book for FE scale-

g. Heat races will be 6 laps in length and will follow standard IMPBA starting procedures. The last
boat running rule may be used, except at the International Regatta

Did anyone consult with the National FE Director before doing this? Are you all just tossing the rulebook out the window saying F it, we're gonna do what we want??

 

[Samuel Hagan JR]

OK after seeing this pop up in my Facebook feed I gotta ask why you are limiting motor choices and excluding a motor that has been the backbone of FE scale for many years- the 850kv NEU 1527 1.5y??? Guys like Smock, Finch, myself and others who could just switch out their existing 10s boat to 8s can't run with you all under these rules. So right out of the gate you are excluding some of the most experienced FE scale racers in IMPBA.

And second why only 5 laps??? Once again the aforementioned 10s 850kv x450 prop combo with go 8 laps (1 mill, 6 race laps and 1 return to pits) with plenty left in the packs to not stress them. Right out of the IMPBA rule book for FE scale-

g. Heat races will be 6 laps in length and will follow standard IMPBA starting procedures. The last
boat running rule may be used, except at the International Regatta

Did anyone consult with the National FE Director before doing this? Are you all just tossing the rulebook out the window saying F it, we're gonna do what we want??

View attachment 313959

If you’re willing to drive all the way to Madison IN for a 1 day club race then yeah. Those are the club rules.

 

[RaceMechaniX]

Don,

The two reasons I could stand on are cost and quality. Both are in favor of the TP4070. Neu used to have fantastic quality but since the partnership with Castle I believe they started using Castles low cost suppliers on some of the higher volume motors like the 1515 1521 and 1527. Any of the motors which have the soft silicone leads come out the end bell are 2nd quality. The original one with red, yellow, blue shrink wrap had the higher quality stators. Secondly, you could buy two TP4070's for one Neu.

If the only limit was 10S and the selected motors most of you should be running a Lehner 2280 with a 40160wk which has the potential to whoop up on the 1527.

 

[Don Ferrette]

Don,

The two reasons I could stand on are cost and quality. Both are in favor of the TP4070. Neu used to have fantastic quality but since the partnership with Castle I believe they started using Castles low cost suppliers on some of the higher volume motors like the 1515 1521 and 1527. Any of the motors which have the soft silicone leads come out the end bell are 2nd quality. The original one with red, yellow, blue shrink wrap had the higher quality stators. Secondly, you could buy two TP4070's for one Neu.

If the only limit was 10S and the selected motors most of you should be running a Lehner 2280 with a 40160wk which has the potential to whoop up on the 1527.

That's true on the later 1527s but there are quite few out there working just fine, Smock's 1527 is 10 years old, why exclude them? BTW- last fall I sent a 15 series in for service and it came back with the old style stator leads so maybe lesson learned for them? I will say my latest FE scale will be running with a TP, it will be on 10s and will be able to easily handle a 6 lap heat just like all the others I've done.

Regardless I don't understand this approach of taking a set up that can't hack a 6 lap race and changing the rules to make it work. That is not the right approach. And if this is being done to "save money" in my opinion one really shouldn't be in the scale class to begin with as they are expensive to build..........

 

[Don Ferrette]

If you’re willing to drive all the way to Madison IN for a 1 day club race then yeah. Those are the club rules.

You kinda missed the point but that's ok...............

 

[RaceMechaniX]

That's true on the later 1527s but there are quite few out there working just fine, Smock's 1527 is 10 years old, why exclude them? BTW- last fall I sent a 15 series in for service and it came back with the old style stator leads so maybe lesson learned for them? I will say my latest FE scale will be running with a TP, it will be on 10s and will be able to easily handle a 6 lap heat just like all the others I've done.

Regardless I don't understand this approach of taking a set up that can't hack a 6 lap race and changing the rules to make it work. That is not the right approach. And if this is being done to "save money" in my opinion one really shouldn't be in the scale class to begin with as they are expensive to build..........

I don't get the 5 laps either. Running 7-8 laps including a mill and finish lap should be the target for most FE boats to have some margin in the setup. Both can be accomplished with adequate battery capacity and good setups.

 

[Mike Starrett]

The joy and frustration levels are exactly the same in a 5 lap race as they are in a 6 lap race. Just 20 or so less seconds for issues to occur

 

[Don Ferrette]

The joy and frustration levels are exactly the same in a 5 lap race as they are in a 6 lap race. Just 20 or so less seconds for issues to occur

Like what kind of issues? If you are referring to equipment once again it's taking an inferior set up and changing the rules to make it work. And one more time right from the IMPBA FE scale section of the rule book-

g. Heat races will be 6 laps in length and will follow standard IMPBA starting procedures. The last
boat running rule may be used, except at the International Regatta

 

[Samuel Hagan JR]

So does that mean RTR has to run 6 laps. I’ll make a note of it to our District Director that RTR needs to run 6 laps since it’s that important a club race has to run 6 laps.

Once again for the last time these are club rules. You can’t stop us and won’t stop us.

 

[Samuel Hagan JR]

I just rechecked the IMPBA rule book and nothing states that RTR is allowed to run 5 laps. Since IMpBA rule book is the Bible and the rules are perfect. So if you guys are gonna piss on our parade, I’m sure I can piss on others. So I’ll make sure RTR runs 6 laps. Better upgrade those fuel tanks.

 

[sbowden21]

D4/D14 what class is being removed from the races in place of this new class? We already only usally get 3 rounds of racing in as is.....

 

[Don Ferrette]

I just rechecked the IMPBA rule book and nothing states that RTR is allowed to run 5 laps. Since IMpBA rule book is the Bible and the rules are perfect. So if you guys are gonna piss on our parade, I’m sure I can piss on others. So I’ll make sure RTR runs 6 laps. Better upgrade those fuel tanks.

You're right the rule book says nothing about five laps for RTR but it does say SIX laps for FE scale. What is so wrong with following long established FE rules? Did you even stop to think for even a moment that those of us who have run FE scale for years are trying to share how to do it a little better? With the format you are pushing members are basically stuck at the club level 'cause they can't hack a normal six lap race without the fear of frying stuff (better not jump the start). If you really wanted to do it right you'd go six race laps and help everyone make sure the boats are capable so if by chance they want to venture outside your sandbox to a race that actually follows the rules they can. So be it but to anyone sitting on the sidelines watching this thread if you'd like help in how to make your FE scale dual purpose with the ability run outside your area if you so choose, feel free to reach out in private via a p/m. I'll be glad to share what I've learned running FE scale for well over a decade...........

 

[DPeterson]

sbowden21 - I am going to assume there will be room due to the natural attrition of some of the nitro classes in D4 and D14. Or maybe not run 2-3 boat classes anymore.

Because D4 and D14 is adopting the motor and cell count package this is a little more than a club thing. Not 100% sure but I don't believe any race venue other than Madison is adopting the 5 lap thing. When I offered to put a couple boats together I conferred with Bill Brandt at Rattlesnake RC and he assured me that 6300 mah will give the boat a mill, 6 laps and a return lap and leave 20% to 25% left in the cells. I believe him as he is in the area of the country that these rules originated, as well as what my past experience tells me.

I'm guessing the Madison Club is still working their way through this and being cautious with the 5 laps. Maybe start thinking 6300 to 8000 mah area for fuel.

Doug

 

[K.R.Joye]

Really appreciate Dons thoughts on saving the current rules for IMPBA FE Scale. The Mi & Cleveland based clubs help develop them and we've been racing successfully with them for decades. Now that there seems to be an upcoming resurgence with FE 8th Scale sure i'm open to looking at allowing more modern available motors into the rules. Why mess with dropping laps, voltage or eliminating the grandfathered motors on current setups. The IMPBA FE Scale class is setup for S/T, so if you want to run 8s go right ahead. The budget ETTI 220 should handle either setup provided is not to heavy or over propped. Like Don mentioned D. Smock and many others have been successfully running the same 1527/10s setup forever with no issues. Not sure why theres such an effort to neuter proven class power requirements that keeps FE on par with their nitro cousins and as a respectful representation of the fullsize ULs. FE 8th Scale was never meant to be a spec class, it was designed to be a premier class(like Nitro Scale) that brought spectators to the waters edge when they were running.
I'm truly excited about the resurgence in the FE Scale class and have my Plett and 1527 setups ready to go! Hope we can make the right decisions going forward.