1/8th Scale FE Rules package for Evansville,Johnson City ,St Ann's, Kenosha etc?

[LohringMiller]

Very similar rules have been running in RCU and NAMBA for years. They allow flexibility in selecting readily available, high quality components. I think all but a very few will be happy.

Lohring Miller

 

[Grimracer]

Similar.....

It seems strange to me that we just let this run around the IMPBA and then have no plan to react.

Maybe.. if something like this happens (Club builds a successful class that propagates to more then one district). We (the IMPBA) uses this as a "sample" or "trial sample" and after one year the IMPBA evaluates if this is indeed what's needed in the rule book. In the end if a class is raced at an IMPBA event propagates though the district.. and in this case jumps to other districts that its some how used as a trial sample.

I would think the BOD would not mind talking to the racers and understanding the "drive" from this class.

The IMPBA is here to help stabilize the classes.. wrap up rules around them so we can all jump in with little confusion.



Grim

 

[JamesEllet]

Hey everyone, I'm the CD for the Johnston City race and was tipped off that there are questions regarding the 1/8th Scale FE class on here.
For my race, I will be following IMPBA rules to the best of my ability. I have very little knowledge of FE but as this is the first time I'm running this class bare with us.

That being said, Grim makes the best point. This is very good discussion and based on the Madison club running alternate (RCU) rules, you already have a solid case to make a proposal to the BOD on rules changes for the class in the future. Going further, if anyone feels they can add value to the organization as a whole regarding FE don't hesitate to run for a director position.

To me, FE feels like a wild west but I know at some point, if it's not already, included in national IMPBA events. My races are generally capstones in racers seasons so I like to stick to the rules as best as I can so that if racers come to race and also get their boats dialed in for a national event I like to try and give them as close to what they'll expect when they go off to the big leagues.

 

[Duke Mordja]

James,

Most all of the new builds in D4 are following the 8S as max power.

I too am new to FE, thats why as D4 Scale Director - working with multiple racers building in D4, decided to follow whats happening and working in D14.

Since your race is mostly D14 and D4 racers, please review what most racers are doing to make this class grow.
There are about 10 FE 1/8 scales being built in D4 now. Sounds like D14 has many in the works as well.

Please take a look at the 2023 SCALE Registration form on the IMPBA website. The form lists what D4 races are going to follow.

Thanks

Duke

 

[JamesEllet]

James,

Most all of the new builds in D4 are following the 8S as max power.

I too am new to FE, thats why as D4 Scale Director - working with multiple racers building in D4, decided to follow whats happening and working in D14.

Since your race is mostly D14 and D4 racers, please review what most racers are doing to make this class grow.
There are about 10 FE 1/8 scales being built in D4 now. Sounds like D14 has many in the works as well.

Please take a look at the 2023 SCALE Registration form on the IMPBA website. The form lists what D4 races are going to follow.

Thanks

Duke

As the scale director of our district, I'll run the rules you want me to.
I would feel better know that they are actively being submitted for a vote of change in the official rules but I'll run what you guys need me to within district. Please email me at [email protected] with what they need to be so I can get them up on the site just in case anyone out of district wants to attend with an FE so they know what to expect.

 

[Duke Mordja]

As the scale director of our district, I'll run the rules you want me to.
I would feel better know that they are actively being submitted for a vote of change in the official rules but I'll run what you guys need me to within district. Please email me at [email protected] with what they need to be so I can get them up on the site just in case anyone out of district wants to attend with an FE so they know what to expect.

James,

Here is the link to the registration from.

D4 2023 Scale Registration.

Should be lots of fun Scale races in the Midwest this year.

 

[JamesEllet]

Ok, I'll get these regulations added to our site. With these, do I need to plan to do a tech for the winner or anything?

 

[Duke Mordja]

If there is unknown parts not easily identified with an obvious speed difference, then we can shake down the winner.

Especially if we dont like them.

Ive been learning how to teck the kV by hooking a drill to the driveline and measuring the voltage out of the motor and using the formula to check.

Interesting
Havent tried it yet.

 

[Don Ferrette]

Well boys and girls it's time I step in on this one with both feet and if some fragile feelings get hurt it's not intentional but it is what it is. I've been racing scale nitro for over 25 years and FE scale for well over a decade so this isn't just plucked out of thin air....

First and foremost that is most disturbing to me- people are making FE rules who have little to no real world FE experience. This is a train wreck waiting to happen.

Sam- the turning FE scale into a spec class was not really meant as a compliment but more so a why statement.

Duke- sorry but the "8S with 10S is like a 45nitro racing a 67nitro." statement is not an accurate comparison. I will give you one that is though- what you are doing in FE scale is the equivalent of telling the nitro scale guys they have to run a stock motor, no tuned pipe and a 55mm prop. How do you think that would go over?

And Lohring- quit making it sound like NAMBA has been doing it for a long time, your 8s FE scale rule is only a few seasons old.

Now with that out of the way let's talk real world numbers. The formula for FE is simple and unchanging- volts times amps equals watts. It takes a certain amount of wattage to move a given package. You have two ways to achieve that required amount- higher voltage and lower amperage or lower voltage requiring higher amperage. What comes with higher amperage? More heat, the absolute number one killer of electronic components. Let's do a quick example with let's say 3,000 watts being the required wattage to move a properly set up boat with typical loaded pack volts @ 3.7v per cell (not peak just charged voltage)-

8s- 29.6 volts will require 102 amps to achieve 3,000 watts
10s- 37 volts will require 81 amps to achieve 3,000 watts

Which set up do you think will runner cooler? But hey how about looking at what's out there, take Doug Smock's (a VERY experienced FE guy) FE scale for starters. 10s, 850kv motor and 50mm prop that runs upper 50s all day long and stays cool as a cucumber. He's been running the same set up for I think 10 years now and just recently replaced the ETTI 220A Opto ESC ($250) because he just flat wore the original one out. John Finch runs the same set up and has for years as well. I have too as have many others. It flat out works, is more forgiving of set up (read dialing in for optimum performance) and isn't running on the ragged edge of letting out the magic smoke. Your current 8s specs with a 57mm prop won't take but a slight increase in load to potentially start frying things. Good luck when you pick up that little twig or leaf running in the summer when the water is warm. And you're going to need even more luck when trying to field test motor kv, that drill test method has a significant margin for error. Like any other spec class it will become a nightmare for those trying to tech things at races, just like it is now for stock gas classes. If anything consider limiting prop sizes based on cell count, like say 50mm for 10s 54mm for 9s and 57mm for 8s along with an overall motor can limit of 40mm diameter (the vast majority of motors appropriate for scale are 40mm cans) but I would stretch the length limit to 108mm as there are motors out now with thicker billet end plates that are not flush with the can like a NEU motor.

For those of you who are building 8s platforms do yourselves a favor spend the money on a controller that will handle up to 10s so if you want to race where the normal rules apply you can just drop in a 10s cell package, slap on a 50mm prop and be very competitive.

Flame suit now on...................

 

[P THOMAS]

So how would the speed compare to 8s or 10 s if you limit prop sizes? What mah and c rating works for these 4 cell or 5 cell batteries?

 

[ACTION JACKSON]

Guess all I can say is you big boys that have been running for years need to start talking about the ins & outs better & more often so us newbies have a better direction. I like the idea running cooler but if all this information was at fingertips then maybe people would have more selections, not just calling someone you don't know to get just their setup. That don't always work. Make a list of the top electric racers that newbies can talk to. From namba & impba. Along with email. Have a great day.

 

[Don Ferrette]

So how would the speed compare to 8s or 10 s if you limit prop sizes? What mah and c rating works for these 4 cell or 5 cell batteries?

Phil like anything set up plays a big part. We've all seen a well set up nitro boat make an average motor look really good while a poorly set up boat make a great motor look like a dog. I would run no less than a 70c rating and 5500mah or better. I typically shoot for 6000 or higher to give a mill lap, 6 race laps, a cool down lap and still leave at least 20% left in the pack. Tyler and I had a convo the other week about what's the latest out there these days and he said Roaring Top are a good value and perform. You've also got the Panther graphenes from Hobbyking just for starters.

 

[Grimracer]

Steve Jackson.. Meet Mike Ball!

Wait..that was post #6

Grim

 

[FloridaScaleBoater]

Steve Jackson, meet Doug Smock.
One of the BEST out there
IMPBA D-13 director, contact info on IMPBA web page.

 

[Duke Mordja]

I think the confusion for me is where Scale FE rules can "span the S/T voltage specification".
Why wasn't one picked? Is it an S class or T Class?
Parts availability - water cooled speed controllers - motors from known suppliers is a big part of it.
Whats a good watercooled 10S speed controller?

We in D4 plan on doing the 8S and having TONS of fun racing. 10S Scales? Lets race those too in 10S.

 

[SayMikey]

So I guess the Madison club has been doing it all wrong for the last couple years! We are going to go play in there sandbox and see what happens.

 

[Duke Mordja]

If we need to adjust for 2024, we will. Again, biggest confusion has been 8S or 10S.

I hope the three IMPBA Hall of famers racing FE Scale in D4/D14 can help coach us along in 2023 on the FE direction while racing with some recent newcomers to the IMPBA.

Look forward to some great 1/8 Scale racing with David, Ron and Mike against some excellent newcomers.

 

[Don Ferrette]

If we need to adjust for 2024, we will. Again, biggest confusion has been 8S or 10S.

I hope the three IMPBA Hall of famers racing FE Scale in D4/D14 can help coach us along in 2023 on the FE direction while racing with some recent newcomers to the IMPBA.

Look forward to some great 1/8 Scale racing with David, Ron and Mike against some excellent newcomers.

Duke it is not 8 or 10s, but rather it spans the voltage range between them, you can do 9s as well which I have also done successfully. Here is the link to the ETTI controller mentioned earlier. It takes a bit of patience listening to the beeps when programming but it's a dam good ESC that will work from 4s to 14s. A big plus is it comes with the extra capacitor bank. PSA- regardless of ESC or voltage chosen run the extra cap banks in boats, it will give a huge safety margin in protecting your ESC from ripple voltage spikes, probably the #1 killer of ESCs (do a search for ripple in this forum and you'll find lots of info).

ESC- Etti HV 220A Opto PRO II Navy Competition Brushless ESC (10-40 Opto) | Offshore Electrics
Add on capacitor banks-
ETTI - Etti ESC Capacitor Bank High Voltage | Offshore Electrics
HiFei- Hifei High Voltage Capacitor Broad | Offshore Electrics

 

[Duke Mordja]

Duke you can also do 9s which I have also done successfully. Here is the link to the ETTI controller mentioned earlier. It takes a bit of patience listening to the beeps when programming but it's a dam good ESC that will work from 4s to 14s. A big plus is it comes with the extra capacitor bank. PSA- regardless of ESC of voltage chosen run the extra cap banks in boats, it will give a huge safety margin in protecting your ESC from ripple voltage spikes, probably the #1 killer of ESCs (do a search for ripple in this forum and you'll find lots of info).

ESC- Etti HV 220A Opto PRO II Navy Competition Brushless ESC (10-40 Opto) | Offshore Electrics
Add on capacitor banks-
ETTI - Etti ESC Capacitor Bank High Voltage | Offshore Electrics
HiFei- Hifei High Voltage Capacitor Broad | Offshore Electrics

Thanks Don.

 

[RaceMechaniX]

I will preface this by saying I am not a scale guy, but I have more experience testing modern FE power systems than 99% of guys running. Fellow racers have asked for recommendations on a solid reliable group of components that should be legal in most racing groups. Here is my recommendation.

Motor: TP4070 10D 860kv motor with 8mm shaft. Plenty of power, similar props for nitro scale. It's inexpensive and reliable.
ESC: Castle hydra XLX2. 8S compatible (not 10S). fully potted design means it's waterproof. Best datalogging of any ESC. Has more amperage headroom than you need.
Batteries:
1P setups: 8S1P made up from two 4S packs configured in series. You will want a large capacity 6000-8000mAh size pack with a minimum 65C rating. Good options are available from Roaringtop, SMC, and Hobbyking Graphene (Panther series)
2P setups (preferred): 8S2P made up from four 4S packs configured in series and parallel. The benefit here is you can use smaller 3000-5000mAh cells which you might already have from other boats and they may package easier in the hull. Running a 2P setup means you split the current draw between two groups of batteries which is favorable.

Running more capacity typically does mean the boat is heavier but gives a racer more comfort to run an extra lap or run in lane 20 if needed. You want to come back to the beach with a minimum of 20% left in the cells voltage. If you do not have one, invest $20 in a cell checker. This little voltage checker is an invaluable tool for knowing where the limits are.

Warm you cells before you run. Lipo's work best around 100DegF. Ideally all cells should be 85DegF-100DegF when you tape up. Invest in a warming blanket from Amazon to gently warm the lipos before you run. This will improve performance and increase the life of the cells. After a heat race let the cells cool down to below 85DegF before recharging.

There is a small advantage to running a 10S system from an amperage reduction perspective given equal power output, however the robustness of the Castle controller and in particular its waterproof design and best in class datalogging outweigh any advantage 10S bears over 8S. As mentioned earlier partial throttle during the mill is a killer condition for most ESC's due to the higher losses that occur in the ESC. The Castle controller is very efficient at partial load and is highly unlikely to "thermal" in the mill where other ESC's are prone to overheat.