What is wrong with racing ?

[bzubee]

You stated it all Rod !

 

[Capt Ron]

as memory serves me, the I.M.P.B.A. started going round in organized circles in 1949...

i was born in 1949 and i ain't quite dead yet nor is the I.M.P.B.A.

this newbie Fast Electric r/c boater has way too much to learn from you seasoned nitro and gas racers for the towel to be tossed in anytime soon!

W. Ron Green

 

[Shark]

Ok, I'll have to respectfully disagree with ROD if nobody else wants to.

First, yes NASCAR and Model Boat Racing are two different sports. However, both NASCAR and MODEL BOATING are a business, plain and simple. NASCAR is in the busines to make money to pay for TROPHYS, PRIZES, TV TIME & Promotion. These things dont pay for themselves.

A few years back, NASCAR was on the brink of disaster. Lack of corporate sponsors was reducing "TEAM" participation and the lack of "TEAM" participation cost the sport TV time and fans. Decisions had to be made by the France family if the business was to stay alive.

These decisions included "handicapping" big dollar teams to even up competition and the end result would be two fold. The first would be increasing "parody" by giving all drivers a chance to be competitive. No team had the giant advantages as in the past...aka Dale Earnhardt, Rusty Wallace, Bobby Allison & Darryl Waltrip.

The second would be the increase in fan base as they had more than ONE CHOICE in picking a new driver. Corporate sponsors were not interested in donating money to a team that would always finish last or in the back of the field, the object is to get your advertising dollars maximised by having the sponsored car on camera.

This being said, Promotion thru the selling of a competitive sport has grown NASCAR to new record levels of fan bases each year since.

NASCAR had to make big changes like: Limiting horsepower, limiting engine builders, limiting chassis's, limiting tracks, limiting speeds, etc etc etc...

These changes were not accepted by the teams, drivers or owners in the begining, however as we see today, there are more teams now than in the 70's. For a while in the 90's, there were not enough cars to fill a 43 car roster.

The reality of change was that the "business" needed to grow thru effective change as the "staus quo" was not enough to keep the sport alive. This has turned out to be the best decision they have ever made.

NASCAR was able to reach beyond the "redneck" mentality of fanbase and incorporate middle america fans.

Model Boating is no different. The numbers dont lie, participation is down, new memberships are down, teams are pratically down to zero in some areas. Income is way down.

We have to remember that as a business we need to support it thru innovations and creativity and not keep the mindset of "status quo".

But how to do it? What are the goals? Who will be affected?? These are the tough questions that even NASCAR faced before change.

At the end of the year, each district provides trophys or championship shirts or jackets to class champions.

This cost money. The more of it, the better the prize. The less of it, the weaker the reward.

In the 80's, my district provided TROPHYS to the top five boaters in each class at the end of the year.. This was accomplished by having the same number of racers at the end of the race season as was in the first race.

Today, we can barely afford to provide the winners of each class with a championship shirt. Our racers seem to start falling off by the 4th race.

Sure, lots of us have tons of trophys and shirts and jackets and "we" dont need any more, however, the new boaters or those who didnt have a competitive chance still would like to achieve this goal and these are the people we should be taking into consideration and not ourselves.

Competitive change is the only way to achieve this. A person who wants to race has to make a decision, "do i spend the extra $400.00 on the new engine" or "do i keep the old engine as I dont have a chance to win anyway"..

There has to be an incentive for investment. Without it, we have "status quo".

If a sporting group as large as NASCAR can accept change and prosper from it, why cant a puny organization like model boating?

 

[henry velasco]

Holy cow Ray

You sound like a union organizer

Henry

 

[Shark]

Nah Henry,

If I wanted to sound like a union organizer, I'd be threatening to burn your houses down!!

Peace.

 

[Geraghty]

Ok, I'll have to disagree with ROD if nobody else wants to.

Decisions had to be made by the France family if the business was to stay alive.

Rey,

You just said exactly the same thing I did.It was Bill France himself sitting at the top of the food chain calling all the final shots,not the rank and file of NASCAR.

Sit down and read again what I said.I never said a word about the "status quo".I didn't say a word about acceptance of change or investment incentives,just mission of the two organizations.

People at our level race for all sorts of reasons.The thrill of competition,the speed,the smell of nitro,the challenge of learning about model boats,posing in the pits,travel,meeting new people or something as simple as they are just sick and tired of evening TV.For whatever reason 95% of the people who race model boats,it isn't to make money.

I ran NASCAR "Grand National" west in the Pacific Northwest in the '70's so please don't sit there and preach to me about the mission of NASCAR.I know exactly how NASCAR operates.I lived under their rule for 8 years.NASCAR was never on the brink of disaster.They could have stumbled along as they were forever much like the way ARCA and the Hooters pro series do today.

NASCAR is where it is today because of one guy who had a vision as to where he wanted it to go with stock car racing.

Bill France had a viable solid "business plan" that he was able to sell.I can't imagine how many "big" investors and banks were and still are involved in the $$$$$ success of NASCAR.

Basically what Bill France did was he made his pitch to WINSTON,not the rank and file and that is when the flood gates opened for NASCAR.

When NASCAR got WINSTON,they "bought" TV time from the networks and then recruited their own sponsors.It all evolved from there.

I'll say it again slowly.Membership organizations are not run like businesses.They don't need to be and they will never will be.They charge just enough dues to pay the bills and thats that.That is a book-keeping function not a business plan.That is the reason 99% of membership run organizations are non-profit.

Everything a membership run organization does is re-active nothing is ever pro-active.Membership run organizations never spend money on speculation,NASCAR did.

If you feel this driving need for more participants in District 19 then get out there and recruit them.Dotting "i's" or crossing "t's" in the rule book has absolutely nothing to do with getting new racers to the pond.Recruiting does.New racers have absolutely no idea what is in the rule book.

I'll tell you what.Go to the NAMBA general meeting next year at the Nats and propose a $25.00 surcharge on every swinging dick in NAMBA and earmark the money for promotion and see how far you get.You will quickly find out how many of the rank and file think model boat racing is in such tough straights they need to anty up $$$$ for promotion.

I know I have been a bit harsh with you but I'm an "A" hole and I admit it. Think about this.

Now if you were to propose a PRO SERIES that paid prize money and you went out and sold races for a fee to a sponsor then you would have a pro-active business plan,not a re-active book-keeping system.

I actually proposed this once to an IMPBA officer.You should have heard the scream of displeasure from this person.I thought I was going to have to give him CPR right then and there.I was told that anyone who participated in a race like this would no longer be a member in good standing in the IMPBA and he would see ti it personally that anyone who raced in a race like that would never be welcome at an IMPBA race ever again.You know he was right.There is a rule in the IMPBA rulebook that states exactly that.Hows that for shitten away an opportunity.

Some years ago I had a sponsor in the town I live in that was willing to put up a $2,000.00 minimum purse guarantee to put on a race right here at my home pond in town during our annual 4th of July celebration.This event would have been co-sponsored by a local civic organization so we could get in on their state gambling permit for fund rasing,much like bingo.We would set-up a betting matrix board on the qualifying rounds,much like a pool.The boat race prize fund would share in this pool over and above the $2000.00 guarantee.Every boat would draw a blind number for the pool each heat.Basically how that boat finished would determine the payout to the bettor.

I can guarantee you this,There is nothing a Wisconsinite enjoys more than beer,brats and betting on a hot summer day.

PROPOSED POSSIBLE RULES OF COMPETITION.

1.Monos and cats only on a giant triangular off shore course.

2.Set a minimum boat weight of lets say 12#.

3.Specify a single propellor for the event.You could do anything you want to that prop.

4.90 motors max.

5.2 starting buoys 50 feet apart.You start in between the [2] lights.

6.Run round robin qualifying rounds.Max 5 boat heats.Get in as many qualifying rounds as possible,time permiting.

7.Run a consolation heat and lets say the best 7 go to the final.Minimum $1,000.00 to win,balance to the next 6 boats.The balance of the prize money from the betting pools would have the money split up on a per lap finished basis amongst all the entrants.The co-sponsor would set-up just as many pools as they could sell.

8.We would call jumped starts[we would video the starts with a light on the start/finish buoy],buoy cuts and count number of laps.Anything else,settle it on the race course.If you want to make the final you had better finish as many laps as you can.If a dead boat is hit,the hittor will be DQ'd from the heat and he will transfer his laps to the hittee's total to be counted in the final prize money distribution,but not towards the final heat.

9.Any hint of poor sportsmanship any time during the event and you will be DQ'd on the spot and the 300# sheriff will put you in your car and see you to the city limits. Leave your mouth and machismo at home if you want to share in the wealth.

10.There would be a couple of 30 minute "meet the competitors" times during the day for the public to come in to the pits and meet the drivers and have any of their questions answered. There would be no work allowed on the boats during this public interaction.

I can't even imagine the level of competition that an event like this could draw.I have seen ice fishing contests on this same pond,in 30 below weather,net $30.000.00 for the event sponsor.

I had several "big" names in model boat racing that were very interested in participating in this event but I could never get it past the powers to be.

This event may be flawed in some way but this is a start to a "business plan" that could be sold.

The subject of this thread is "What is wrong with racing"......For the reasons I stated earlier,there is absolutely nothing wrong with racing....it is what it is.You personally may not like what it is,but 99% of the rank in file as a whole are happy with what it is,and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that.If racing was in such terrible straights a hell of a lot more people would be in this discussion than the dozen or so that are involved in this discussion.

Rod Geraghty

 

[Tim Kish]

The subject of this thread is "What is wrong with racing"......For the reasons I stated earlier,there is absolutely nothing wrong with racing....it is what it is.You personally may not like what it is,but 99% of the rank in file as a whole are happy with what it is,and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that.If racing was in such terrible straights a hell of a lot more people would be in this discussion than the dozen or so that are involved in this discussion.

Rod Geraghty

This post was started because of an observation I made after returning to the hobby, nothing more nothing less.

It was painfully obvious that the number of racers had decreased while the number of classes had increased , six years away from the hobby and the change was drastic.

Therefore racing at the club level was suffering , small heats and a lot of mixed class heats just to

keep everyone happy .

This was not an attack on racing , or IMPBA it was just what I noticed when I returned to the hobby and as for Nascar don't follow it don't care.

To say there is nothing wrong is the same as sticking your head in the ground in the hope that the problem will fix itself or just go away , the great thing about the internet is that it allows for open discussions that eventually could lead to help make something better and stronger than it already is.

Tim K

 

[Ed.R]

When NASCAR got WINSTON,they "bought" TV time from the networks and then recruited their own sponsors.It all evolved from there.

The man who brought Winston to Nascar was Junior Johnson. Winston went to JJ so they could sponsor his team and He said for that kinda money you need to talk to Mr.France ya'all can sponsor the hole **** series. TRUE STORY !

Marketing years ago made Nascar what it is today and they stick to the same idea.

Ed.R

 

[BigChuck]

There may be one word that needs to be considered." PROGRESS "

Some people may like it, some may be afraid of it. Some may not want it.

But it is the one thing that Seprates us for all others. Namba's rate of progress compared to ours? Good, Bad ,indifferent............ You be the Judge. For that matter EVERYONE!!

It is the one thing that is the difference. Nascar, ROAR, Who ever...............

One of the things that Made Atlanta a major success WAS TV COVERAGE !!!!

We were on the local AM MORNING SHOW. We had spectators!!!!!

Marketing, Progress,Promoting, you chose your own idea. But having been a part of that success and using some of those very same ideas that you mentioned we can only get better. The what wrong is " in my view, is administration not welling recognize that Change, quite or other wise is good."

 

[Geraghty]

This post was started because of an observation I made after returning to the hobby, nothing more nothing less.

It was painfully obvious that the number of racers had decreased while the number of classes had increased , six years away from the hobby and the change was drastic.

To say there is nothing wrong is the same as sticking your head in the ground in the hope that the problem will fix itself or just go away , the great thing about the internet is that it allows for open discussions that eventually could lead to help make something better and stronger than it already is.

Tim K

Tim,

There is absolutey nothing wrong with this discussion,in fact I love this type of discourse.

Nobody said you were attacking IMPBA or anything else.Everything about the internet is not great.

There is no doubt in my mind you have probably seen a drastic change at the races you have attended ,but that is hardly a cast in stone indicator of the overall health of model boat racing.

Take a look at the Internats entries this year.Some of the largest classes at the Nats this year were the classes that have been added in the last 6 years while you took your voluntary leave of absence.

I just got off the phone with John Equi and the IMPBA membership will be up approx. 10% in 2006 from the 2005 totals.IMPBA is financially very healthy.There are areas in the rulebook that require attention but none of those areas concern the number of classes we have.

It is best I just leave the "head in the ground" remark were it is.........but I haven't taken the last 6 years off.All I have seen over the past 2-3 years is progress in the IMPBA.

I do business with racers from coast to coast and business has never been better.

Once again,RE: racin'.....it is what it is.

I'm done with this subject.

Rod Geraghty

 

[Roger Hooks Jr.]

Maybe instead of just talking about what is wrong with boating for every line you choose to write about "What's wrong" let's also hear what you plan to do to improve on the issues raised at the beginning of this post. It doesn't matter if everyone thinks it is a bad idea as long as you keep it within reason and the rules of your organization... just try it and see what happens. We call it a "green light session" in the marketing department. Just keep the underlying principle in line... Have Fun and promote Fun.

Mike Hughes said he was going to just race the most popular classes in his district to support what is working in his district. He also stated that he doesn't know if this is the answer but that is what he was going to do in pursuit of making progress. I applaud him for that.

I myself have listened to most all concerns on this board and at many meetings including one national meeting so I decided to "do" as much as my time, talent and ability allowed to. People mentioned needing more race sites. I am in the process of landing three for next season. People wanted flyers to pass out to new comers I put that together as well. Some electric guys wanted a place to race their 1/8th electric scale boats. I invited to my race. People talk about cost. Hopefully I can introduce an example of a solution to offset at least some expenses for racers at the next NAMBA nats.

I am no different from all the rest of you who enjoy this hobby/sport. I encourage each one of you to sit down and really think. What could "YOU" do to make things better.

Here's a simple one. Every race I have in the area I post a bulletin at work. My dad keeps flyers in his car and saw an opportunity to pass on to a guy at his last visit to the hobbyshop and for those who know my dad he is not exactly the conversationalist so if he can do it so can you. The result... I had 1 guest and he had four at the last race. The guy he invited brought his son and his son brought to friends. So between two people brought in 5. If everyone did that the population in spectators would more than double the amount of racers. that gives you a nice pool of new comers to entice. From there you are on your way to get them hooked... There is one guy that still races til this day that my dad invited from work over 20 years ago... I think he won sport 60 and his son got second in sport 40 I at the NAMBA nats in Florida.... And don't forget the ladies. One other guy on another occassion invited a lady from work. She came with a chair and watched all day long.

It is not rocket science. It just takes a little effort from "EACH" of us.

The motion of change first begins with a movement in you.

 

[Roger Hooks Jr.]

... Oh Yah...

From a business point of view... in many cases when you add variety you add more appeal. The amount of classes we have is okay. I think the focus should be in making sure you maintain your customer base.

District 9 continues to do okay. We are fortunate to have been able to maintain all of our race sites within a 2 to 3 hour radius with only one couple traveling for more than 5 from Nevada. I think the key is to promote and recruit in your local area so when the race comes to your town you always have good numbers then out of towners traveling for 8 hours is no longer an issue. If they come... "Glad to see you" if not "See you at the next race". I would think that the second largest economy and population in the country LA (southern california) should not have a shortage in participants. It's simple marketing and demographics. We all have the same to offer. It's just a matter of what adjustments we are going to make to get the people in the door and stay. As one person mentioned... It doesn't matter if they race 3 or 10 boats, got first or 5th. It's how much fun they had in doing so.

 

[Geraghty]

When NASCAR got WINSTON,they "bought" TV time from the networks and then recruited their own sponsors.It all evolved from there.

The man who brought Winston to Nascar was Junior Johnson. Winston went to JJ so they could sponsor his team and He said for that kinda money you need to talk to Mr.France ya'all can sponsor the hole **** series. TRUE STORY !

Marketing years ago made Nascar what it is today and they stick to the same idea.

Ed.R

Ed,

Absolutely true......that is when France made his pitch to Winston.

It was a marriage made in heaven for both Winston and NASCAR.The timing was perfect for both.Winston kept their name out in plain sight and NASCAR had unlimited marketing funds.

If you remember,the pressure was on the government to ban all tobacco adds on TV,billboards and publications.

Winston could see the handwritting on the wall and they took the opportunity to get firmly entrenched with NASCAR as the series sponsor.

Through all the years that Winston was affiliated with NASCAR,did you ever remember seeing a billboard advertising tobacco products at a race track?I can't remember one,can you?

Rod

 

[Ed.R]

Rod,

No , The same can be said about the drivers/crew and so on . I NEVER heard a driver , when Winston was envolved say" Go smoke and make sure there RJ Reynolds , or winston. Same can't be said for Nextel.

But thats what Nextel pays for. More power to Nascar to still grow when economy isn't all that good and other series still strugle. If it wasn't for Danica I don't think IRL would draw attention to itself or a big crash .

I work in the feild so I'm lovin NASCAR same with my 3 boys and wife.

If Toyota can join I'd love to see Audio and a deisel powered stock car .

Done.

Ed.R

 

[Shark]

Rod,

I completely understand your points. However. With respect to our organizations, we are at a point where the membership needs to take a hard look at the future of this hobby.

We can either be the group of boaters who resisted change and killed the hobby, or we can be the group of boaters who expanded and grew the hobby by accepting competitive change.

The posts that folks made comparing nascar to boat racing were purely metaphorical.

Change is change.

Many sports have had to do it in order to either grow revenue, fans or competition.

Look at football. I am sure we all like football. I am sure we all liked football the way it was before "change" was made to the divisions. Football was on TV and on radio. Fans were going to games and products were being sold. Why then, did the National Football league feel change was in order???

It was competitive change thru parody. Fans wanted to see different teams in the playoffs other than the cowboys, niners, steelers & patriots.

Switching from a 3 division system to a 4 division system has created a new dynamic that fans have grasped with both hands.

Football has now reached new levels of fan based enthusiasm.

Model boating does lack this enthusiasm. I agree with Tim K. who started this post.

"what is wrong with racing?" It is many things. Not all can be solved or addressed. Many have brought up great ideas and points on this thread and the collective thought process of these posts shows that the dynamic exists to make competitive change.

Now I surely dont speak for any other district or organization. However, as a participant for 38 years now, I have seen this hobby go from gangbusters to just bust in less than 10 years.

I have made the first of many ideas to promote growth and enthusiasm. Our Points system. With competitive change as done in all other areas of motorized sport, we can re-generate enthusiasm by increasing the ODDS of winning. Once the ODDS of winning are increased, the by-product will be investment and growth by the racing community. These things go hand in hand.

I agree with those who believe there are too many classes and way too many three boat heats. One poster wrote that "his" best races were three boat heats as there wasnt that much dead wood to go around. Well, thats hardly a competitive race when you factor in a 50% DNF percentage per heat ratio. Dead wood is a part of the competition. There are no easy heats.

Confusing "entertainment" value with "competitive" value is not equal. Indeed, watching 3 twin X hydros running around is pure entertainment, but on a flip side, watching three 3.5 outboard monos run around is hardly an eye opener.

In our district, I have made the suggestion that we incorporate at least two races into sister districts with points that count towards "our" championship series. This would accomplish a few things. First, the size of the race would at least double in attendance. This means more revenue for the respective districts.

Second, the dynamic of each class would change as the competition increases. IE: a 5 boat 45 hydro class in dist 19 would become a 10 or 15 boat class for the day. This alters the destiny of all points chasers as the competition naturally increases.

Thirdly, a more friendly interaction with sister districts would encourage participation and more social atmosphere between competitors.

Here, our district could interact with those up north in dist 9. They host one race in our schedule, and we host one race for their schedule.

This idea all but eliminates the 3 boat heat scenario that currently exists in our district.

I am sure others areas are facing similar numbers.

What I am proposing is simple change, effective competitive change that would include all racers, both big budget racers (like me) and the smaller budget racers who enjoy the hobby as well. Not everyone can be a big budget racer.

One boater posted that he travels in a trailer, with a shop, electricity, storage, drill press, lathe, etc etc etc...but what is not realized is this is what scares new boaters away.

I used to race 8 classes a weekend, in one year, I won them all. Then one day I over heard a couple of new guys talking around the pits. It was a saturday, I had just won my first two rounds in A OB tunnel, B OB tunnel & C OB tunnel. A perfect day you would have to say. These guys said to each other, "THAT GUY GARCIA MAKES THIS NO FUN, we ARE JUST WASTING OUR TIME".

I called my wife and told her I was going to pack up and come home. And I did. I never raced Outboards again. All my efforts to win races and the perception of it was that I was making others feel like they were wasting their time.

This made me realize the difference in perceptions. That is what separates us all.

Collectively, we should find a common ground and take a good hard look at the "competitive" value of the hobby vs the "entertainment" value of the hobby.

Our efforts should be centralized on growing the membership and the racing community and not knocking the organizations themselves. Yes, some districts have been run like dictatorships and resistence to change is present, yet many of us come back the next year to participate, some dont. its the "donts" that concern me.

There are many qualified boaters participating today with great ideas and imaginations. We just need to hear them.

Peace.

 

[Tim Kish]

What do I plan to do to ?

As I said in an earlier post if I race next season it will be in only the largest classes

in my district and I will also be introducing my son to racing , hopefully he will get the bug because

the children are the future of this hobby.

Tim K

 

[Tim Kish]

I would also like to add that I am not trying to paint a doom and gloom picture here but

something has definately happened over the last ten years.

There are also many good things happening , this weekend in London Ontario they are holding

the largest race of the season in Canada the Northern Nats (hope the weather holds out for them).

But on the flip side to that this size of race use to be a normal weekend race for London in the early ninties.

Tim K

 

[bzubee]

Do you realize you are comparing full size car racing to model boat racing? Of course you do! Why not compare full size boat racing to model boat racing? Why ? Because the full size boat racing is no where near as successful as the full size car racing! Compare model car racing to NASCAR it is now where near as poular as NACAR either. TH eonly reason it is more popular than model boat racing is the R/C Cars /truck can be run almost any where with no requirement to use a retrieve boat. If yo utake a good look and actually compare apples to apples, model boat racing is as doing as well as full size boat racing relational wise. I think the point Rod was making is it was much easier for NASCAR to generate rules/ policyies and procedures when it is on eperson making the call versus all of the members.

I would suggest the next time you think about making a comparison try comparing similar type of racing vehicles!

I'd like to point out since 2004 IMPBA has had 400 new members join. Our membership ihas actually grown since 2004 and has grown even more since 2005. So I would hardly say it is diying off many of the races are maxed out on attendance due mostly to the pre race work publicity done by the club members hosting the event and the 2 great forums I'Waters and Jim's Boat Dock.

Just wanted to make a response for eavryone to stop and think about. As for th problems with IMPBA going on right now we are getting those worked out and I would like to point out that if you go back and count how few the members are that are posting negative post about the rule you will se it is only about 6 or so of the same people doing all of the complaining. Go on and actually count the numbers. It's about the same number and people that did all the complaining back 2 years ago and even beyond when Tom Grannis tried to get a noise rule passed. IMPBA passed the first rule that was a passive rule and tried to use peer pressure to encourage membrs to quiet their boats down that for the most part did not work. I ws one of those that found ways around the rule. THen after the 2005 Internats a member came to me with a change to the noise rule and I worked with him on th ewording and presented the proposal to the board a few more changes were made to the wording in th eboard meeting and it was then presented to the membership to be voted on, and approved by a majority of the membership that actually sent their ballots in. There is the short history of how the IMPBA got into the problem we are in now. As I stated earlier we are working on changes to correct some of the problem areas of the present rule but this does take time and some members want it to happen NOW. THEY want it NOW!! THey don't want the membership to have asay it how the problem is solved, AS president I promise the changes will go according to how our rulebook lays out the procedures fo rany change to the rulebook.

 

[Shark]

Bzbee,

Do you understand the use of metaphors??

I think the misunderstanding is yours.

Peace.

 

[Ed.R]

Racing in general , everything is hard to compare to Nascar . Say what you want , big heavy ,little technology( NOT REALLY) narrow tires BLAH BLAH BLAH. No other racing can compete with it . As A big buisness .

On the other hand it's hard for Nascar to get numbers (ratings) that compare to the NFL .

They can beat Baseball though .

Ed.R