What have we come to ?

[julianconde]

Other developed countries in the world have similar laws regarding what levels of discipline for kids are considered unnacceptable, have parents working long hours etc etc.

There is gun control where I live, but there are still shootings. Generally it's one criminal element taking out another criminal element, not innocent 7 year old kids.......

The other developed countries in the world have a considerably lower rate of homicides. It's not zero, but it is a lot less likely if it is harder for someone with problems to get their hands on something designed to end multiple lives in the shortest possible amount of time.

Just sayin'

The frequency of these types of things occurring is a worry.

its the same in the USA for you to buy a weapon you are subject to a background check for any criminal offenses in the USA. to get a conceal carry you are subject to the same and a FBI check also you can have a clean record and pass with flying colors but if you are mentally unstable or are crazy and its never documented or have a record of it or problems with the law then you can get away with buying a gun..

in this case the weapons were legit and own by someone that had a good record unfortunately the wrong person got them in their hands and comitted a crime..

you can also purchase guns illegaly and use them to commit a crime also most cases of violent crimes have been people that have mental issues i dont think i have seen someone thats perfectly sane or have testified saying they did it for fun, im perfectly fine mentally or just was bored..

You can have the best gun control policies in the world but its not the weapon its the person behind the weapon that makes it deadly..

 

[julianconde]

here in afghanistan we have alot of weapons carried by soldiers and civilians from different countries. we know who has weapons and they have live ammo to go with them at all times how many soldiers and civilians that carry weapons here have commited murder against each other. Not many at all and theres a **** load of weapons and ammo here. It falls back to the person thats carries the weapons not the weapons themselves.. The weapon does not kill unless you have the wrong person pulling the trigger.

julian

 

[RodneyPierce]

parents need to start being parents to there children, not friends to there children.

Don, you are 100% correct... My worst fear was the belt hanging on the key holder, right inside the front door. Mom knew how to use it if I needed it. Only took one good swat with it, and I knew I didnt want it ever again.

 

[David Santistevan]

Once again we are faced with the tragedy of a mass killing, I cannot express the sorrow and pain we feel for these families. Having graduated from and living in the area of Columbine High, I had friends and employees who lost their children in that shooting and it devastated our community for a long long time. I do not understand what force in our younger generations is creating this type of anger and release but we obviously have a very deep rooted problem.

 

Aside from a few isolated incidents, these are almost exclusive to the US, The number is at least 10 to 1 from anywhere else in the world. So what is it about our culture that teaches these kids that the solution to their problems is to kill as many innocent people as they can? The clue may be in the method. There are many ways anyone could attack a group of unarmed people in an attempt to kill them, Why not drive a car into a crowd etc. Instead they choose semi-automatic weapons where they can start shooting without stopping.

 

I know there are a lot of NRA proponents out there and I do not question anyone's right to own a weapon if they so choose. But allowing semi-automatic weapons to be legal in just not sane in my opinion. These are weapons that were designed for war, They have no place in the sportsman world. We do not allow sportsman to own hand grenades or RPG launchers. Obviously this is not the root of the problem, who knows what force causes someone to lose it. But we cannot enable them with easy access to weapons of mass death.

 

I know I am going to catch hell for this post but I am compelled to express my position in light of our losses once again. If you feel your right and desire to own a semi-automatic weapon outweighs the lives of the 26 people in Connecticut, the 12 people in the Colorado theater shooting, 12 at Columbine, 32 at Virginia Tech then I believe it's time for some introspection.

 

"Guns don't kill people, people kill people" and people with semi automatic weapons kill more people. It is too easy for people who should not have these weapons to get them.

 

Our thoughts and prayers are with the parent who lost their children yesterday.

D

 

[Don Ferrette]

David I'll keep it simple- owning a semi automatic weapon does not make you a killer. The problem is not the guns, they've always been readily available but the simple fact is the solution starts at home.................

 

[julianconde]

Once again we are faced with the tragedy of a mass killing, I cannot express the sorrow and pain we feel for these families. Having graduated from and living in the area of Columbine High, I had friends and employees who lost their children in that shooting and it devastated our community for a long long time. I do not understand what force in our younger generations is creating this type of anger and release but we obviously have a very deep rooted problem.

 

Aside from a few isolated incidents, these are almost exclusive to the US, The number is at least 10 to 1 from anywhere else in the world. So what is it about our culture that teaches these kids that the solution to their problems is to kill as many innocent people as they can? The clue may be in the method. There are many ways anyone could attack a group of unarmed people in an attempt to kill them, Why not drive a car into a crowd etc. Instead they choose semi-automatic weapons where they can start shooting without stopping.

 

I know there are a lot of NRA proponents out there and I do not question anyone's right to own a weapon if they so choose. But allowing semi-automatic weapons to be legal in just not sane in my opinion. These are weapons that were designed for war, They have no place in the sportsman world. We do not allow sportsman to own hand grenades or RPG launchers. Obviously this is not the root of the problem, who knows what force causes someone to lose it. But we cannot enable them with easy access to weapons of mass death.

 

I know I am going to catch hell for this post but I am compelled to express my position in light of our losses once again. If you feel your right and desire to own a semi-automatic weapon outweighs the lives of the 26 people in Connecticut, the 12 people in the Colorado theater shooting, 12 at Columbine, 32 at Virginia Tech then I believe it's time for some introspection.

 

"Guns don't kill people, people kill people" and people with semi automatic weapons kill more people. It is too easy for people who should not have these weapons to get them.

 

Our thoughts and prayers are with the parent who lost their children yesterday.

D

David please tell me what semi-Automatic weapons where designed for war ?? other than the following .223 or 5.56 and 7.62 semi automatic riffles.

I own the following semi-Automatic riffles and pistols AR15,SKS,AK-47,sig 40,glock,H&K,tactical,diamondback,berretta, S&W revolver ect ect in the right hands these weapons wont hurt a fly and are only used to go to the range and have some fun shooting at targets in the wrong hands all these weapons have the potential depending on the individual to create chaos and lots of casualties..

you said it yourself and quote "Guns don't kill people, people kill people"

 

[David Santistevan]

I think I said that in a round about way. Guns a a whole are not the problem but semi-automatic weapons are unnecessary. What use does the common Joe have for them. Allowing them at large makes them easily available to people that shouldn't have them with the ability to kill many people very quickly. I am the first to defend anyones right to own a gun. However a gun that is designed for the purposes of killing a large number of people quickly does not make any sense. There are lots of things our society allows us to have in controlled quantities because mass quantities represent a public danger. This is the same thing. These guns have no purpose in our communities.

I agree again, guns are not the root problem but they are an enabling tool for people who should not have them. Unless someone comes up with a method for easily detecting disturbed people that allow us to find these people before they hurt anyone, then we have to consider taking the tools they use to kill people.

Enough said, I'm done.

 

[julianconde]

I think I said that in a round about way. Guns a a whole are not the problem but semi-automatic weapons are unnecessary. What use does the common Joe have for them. Allowing them at large makes them easily available to people that shouldn't have them with the ability to kill many people very quickly. I am the first to defend anyones right to own a gun. However a gun that is designed for the purposes of killing a large number of people quickly does not make any sense. There are lots of things our society allows us to have in controlled quantities because mass quantities represent a public danger. This is the same thing. These guns have no purpose in our communities.

I agree again, guns are not the root problem but they are an enabling tool for people who should not have them. Unless someone comes up with a method for easily detecting disturbed people that allow us to find these people before they hurt anyone, then we have to consider taking the tools they use to kill people.

Enough said, I'm done.

a good solution to the problem is having the person trying to buy a weapon of any kind do a interview with a proffesional to see the person mental condition,ensure they have no records of mental issues and capable of owning a weapon..

a weapon,knife,forks,sword,baseball bat,golf clubs,pens and pencils,poisons,hands (hand to hand combat) and several others things have been and still used to kill people and all our tools that have been used to commit violent crimes ..

 

[David Santistevan]

Julian,

that is true. However someone with a knife might be able to kill one or two people and hell the person they are attacking even might have a chance to defend themselves or run away. Someone who is more that 15 feet away has no chance of defending themselves and a semi-automatic can reach a lot of people instantly.There is no comparison there.

So given yesterday's events, his mom who bought the guns get interviewed, she checks out and they sell her the guns, she takes them home and gives them to her son not realizing that he has completely lost it. If his own mother does not know that he capable of this then how is a cursory interview by a stranger going to identify him. Hell the guy in Denver was seeing several doctors and they did not even suspect until a few days before.

Anything in the hands of responsible and rational people with the right training are safe. I agree. I would never worry about living next to you with with your collection. The problem is that when they are so easily available then they are available to the less stable elements of our society. How would you feel about Plutonium being made available to hobbiest or how about allowing people who have pleasure aircraft be allowed fly anywhere they want. The point being the potential danger to the public for these weapons is obvious.

The question once again is, does your right/desire to own these guns for the purposes of pleasure or hobby outweigh the lives of the 20 children or any of the others that lost their lives to them?

The reality here is that the whole gun control thing is very touchy. Pro gun people fear that any regulation of any kind will lead to more and more regulation so they are not willing to consider any regulation. I get it, good people, safe people like to have this hobby. But we have to consider the risks. The UK has very strickt gun control, this year they are reporting 14 homicides with guns, the US is reporting over 9,300, so who says gun control does not work?

I agree their some things about us and they way were are raising our kids that are helping to create this problem. However rule is the the virtual whole of the people do not go out and start killing people. It is a very small fractional percentage of people who do this. I will say this, being 52 years old, one if the biggest thing I have seen change in people values over the years is the complete loss of the sense of community and common good. Now its about whats mine, I only care about me and what I want. I think the question above takes on a new light given that fact don't you think?

BTW, We have banned product and toys from being sold to the public for far less danger than this.

D

 

[julianconde]

The question once again is, does your right/desire to own these guns for the purposes of pleasure or hobby outweigh the lives of the 20 children or any of the others that lost their lives to them?

to answer your question that would be No ofcourse not.

Any fire arm can and will shoot and kill at great distances. I myself could hit a target with just iron sights at 300 Meters, 984 feet or 328 yards away. you can double those numbers when i put a a good scope and have a great spotter.

I have to agree the potential danger to the public for any weapon is obvious and it always have been. The weapons are available to buy in semi-automatic and automatic platform also. I think the process of buying any weapon should be more intense meaning in depth background checks and mental evaluations.

Im all for making them harder to buy and if you are able to buy one they have fully investigated your life just like they did when they was going to issue me a clearance.

Banning them im against it because yes many people have lost their lives because they where not used properly but when used properly by the right individual they are harmless.

More people in the USA have lost their lives to pistols and revolvers than assault weapons (High Power Riffles/Military Riffles) i might be wrong but people die everyday by lower caliber weapons (.22-.45 Cal)

 

[Slideblues]

By example I'll use what Don said...... It starts in the home,

Dad was a one shot wonder at extreme range for the military, Did he pass these skills along to his son ?

Yes he did.........

I own his weapon of choice, 7.62, Douglas bull barrel, Canjar duel set, custom stock, Redfield 9X , Does that make me a killer?

No it does not.........

I can drive nails at range control my rate of fire and hold tight groups to min colateral damage.

Unless you've leaned in and fired a high power weapon you are clueless to what Im talking about.

Which is my point, Try'n to educate the masses is gonna be a VERY hard task.

Gene

 

[Don Ferrette]

"The question once again is, does your right/desire to own these guns for the purposes of pleasure or hobby outweigh the lives of the 20 children or any of the others that lost their lives to them?"

This analogy is completely absurd. Are you really foolish enough to think it would have been any different if the guy walked in with a couple average hand guns? There was nobody there to stop him once this tragedy started and actually it's too bad someone there wasn't armed and been able to drop his sorry ass at the beginning. As I said before the solution STARTS AT HOME! Our liberal influenced society has taken away domestic corporal punishment from the parents and at the same time these kids lacking morals, respect and discipline spend endless hours becoming totally desensitized to death playing video games where winning is determined by body counts. Until we fix that this stuff will continue no matter if it's guns, home made bombs or poisonings.

 

[Joe Warren]

And now all the gun control freaks will come pouring out of the woodwork again screaming for outlawing guns. The gun didn't kill, the a-hole holding it did who is yet another product of a wussified society. Too many of the kids today are not being taught how to accept and deal with failure or rejection, they are coddled and praised at every turn, are told "nobody's a loser, everyone's a winner" and are not being disciplined when they step out of line. Now so many grow up having no fear, no responsibility and no accountability for their actions and treat life like one of the video games they've played. Top that with how it's always someone else's fault and "not my child they're perfect" and you have a recipe for disaster. Then when they get out in the real world and life starts kicking them in the tail they can't handle it and flip out. Last week the Oregon shooter lost it over his girl friend dumping him!!! REALLY!?!?!?!? This has NOTHING to do with guns and EVERYTHING to do with the lack of morals, respect, guidance and discipline. This liberal society we have allowed to be created is a bus going towards the cliff with nobody at the wheel and a brick on the gas pedal......................

Our President & family was recently at his re election protected by Secret Service and 100s of other guns in Security dept. Yet he wants to take your guns away that protect your family??

 

[Slideblues]

Just watched a ABC news special this morning, the coverage was with state and local government about what to do.

The big part of the subject was for more concern to menal health issues and the need for a place so people can get help.

Then the gun control comes up. As early as next week four different people are going before the house, senate, with ideas.

While no one would comment to specifics. The general comments were about ALL semi auto weapons with large magazines.

Statements were hunters and sport shooters dont need semi autos period.

So here we go, I do hope they focus more on the person with the problem and not so much the means he used,

Gene

 

[David Santistevan]

Well like I said before, gun control is a touchy subject an there are those who will never agree with it. Your points about our kids are raised has a lot of merit. However, statistically speaking if the way kids are raised were the bulk of the problem then we would have all out carnage in the streets. I think it is more likely that 1) These are a few mentally unstable people, 2) Given the current social pressures including the way kids are raised, exposure to violence on TV and games etc. these people somehow translate that into action and 3) Easy access to guns allowed them to do unspeakable things. I was listening to an interview this morning of the guy who wrote the book about the Klebolds afte Columbine. He himself said that he we to interview the family expecting to find a disfunctional, broken family that explained the why. Instead he came away even more mystified in that these were good parents and great members of the community who did not know their son was a monster.

I think you are missing the point. Guns in the hands of rational, stable people do not represent this kind of threat, no more than a knife, a car, a baseball bat. The difference is that semi-automatic weapons, in the hands of an unstable individual allow them to kill a large number of people in a very short period with little or no chance for defense. Someone with a nonsemit-automatic weapon can kill someone yes, they can even kill several people, but they cannot kill 26 people in under two minutes. We already have these kinds of laws for these very reasons. Shotguns mags for example are only allowed to have three shells in them.

Anyway, as an engineer that looks at things from a analytical basis I cannot reconcile that this is entirely about raising kids. I think that is an easy answer to a very complicated problem. Until we can identify and help these people on a consistent bais, then we have to look way to imit how much damage they can do even at the expense of those who do no represent a danger.

Don, I respect you and I ask that you respect me also, I am not a "gun control freak" and you label us. Until you have lived through an incident like Columbine as we did you cannot know the pain of losing kids and other members of your community. I can tell you absolutely I am not a gun control freak. What I am is a person who had three kids in an elementry school less than a couple of miles from Columbine that were locked down, I am a parent who was standing outside the doors of the school wondering what was going on with my kids but mostly I am about finding a way to prevent more innocent kids from being killed.

As a PS. to Gene's comment. I would love to find a way to help these people, I don't want to see anyone lose a child or even a hobby that they enjoy. But as the saying goes "a few bad apples...". But given our current abilities to identify an help these people what other choice do we have?

D

 

[Slideblues]

Hit on a key part there David, Identify the person with a problem before they snap.

I dont mean to be calous on the subject at all, Its going to be some hard choices for all concerned,

Gene

 

[dwilfong]

Stop and look at this situation that has just happened.

What could have prevented it?

Smart antisocial kid living with his mom. Mom has guns she legal bought.

All the gun control in the world would not have stopped here from buying a gun.

Kid snaps and goes berserk.

So what Cristal ball would tell this story.

Living in modern free society these are the chances you take to be truly free.

The world is not a perfect place and as hard as we try it will never be.

So lets come up with a whole bunch of new laws to try and make the world a safer place?

Thing like this have bin happening since time began it is nothing new.

But it will be used by some to promote there agenda.

So tragedy will be exploited by all for there own means.

So sad!!!

I think are energy's as people would be better served to help those that have lost love ones in this tragedy.

David

 

[Slideblues]

Im sure FBI or ATF has profilers on scene, Their little black books on mindsets...........

No clear answer, further details might come out later,

Gene

One of the group this morning did say there is no way to stop it,

Their quote:

But something has to be done to the mental health system or gun control to slow it down.

And a comment on the instant news media and copycat factor involved.

 

[Glenn Gates]

A lot of you bring up good points- but what the hell were this kids parents thinking? Leaving a Bushmaster and a couple high capacity pistols around without trigger locks and leaving ammo unlocked and accessable by anyone? The kid was rowing with one oar in the water- But the parents were STUPID.

 

[Glenn Gates]

By example I'll use what Don said...... It starts in the home,

Dad was a one shot wonder at extreme range for the military, Did he pass these skills along to his son ?

Yes he did.........

I own his weapon of choice, 7.62, Douglas bull barrel, Canjar duel set, custom stock, Redfield 9X , Does that make me a killer?

No it does not.........

I can drive nails at range control my rate of fire and hold tight groups to min colateral damage.

Unless you've leaned in and fired a high power weapon you are clueless to what Im talking about.

Which is my point, Try'n to educate the masses is gonna be a VERY hard task.

Gene

Gene, I'm with ya- I see no need for high capacity autoloading weapons. But the NRA in all their wisdom has challenged the government on this point not wanting to give any concessions to gun control. Now we got freaks buying them for their kids.