Turbo Charged

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Pennywizz6

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jul 22, 2004
Messages
366
Is it possible to put a turbo charger on your nitro rc engine? Not with a turbine but with ram air flow direct towards the carb. Heres an image that i drew in 5 min, just for a basic idea. It would stick out of the hull and the wind would go down the tube and into your carb. Id set i up so no water could enter and i could set it up so a servo switches if your idle when it has no air flow and switch it to the tube while your running. Just a thought, and if possible, i have the equipment to mke nay such part.

Phil B) :) :huh:
 
O yeah... the picture :rolleyes:

turbo.jpg


It wont just be a tube, it will be much fancier.
 
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Some years ago we tried something like this on our 50 cc mopeds, the idea was to increase horsepower by going faster and faster.

the mopeds in norway had a topspeed of around 50-60 km/h then, but we didnt manage to go faster by increasing the airflow.

But I see that Kawasaki has such patents on some of their large motorcycles, and it seems to work inn speeds near 300km/h......

stian

[email protected]

http://www.almostracing.com
 
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The speed of the air through the carb is greater than the speed of the boat. So unless a funnel shape of apropriate size was used this would be useless. A large orifice is only going to be drag when you get to that point.
 
My experience is in the trucking industry. Has any body ever seen a caterpillar turbo?

The exhaust spins the turbo fan, creating boast into the intake. Always wondered if that would work to increase hp.

Would take some real fine machine work. Probably cost as much as the engine.

Just a thought

Mike
 
I dont think a little rc engine's exhaust has any power to turn a fan. I will come up with a way to not cause drag. I dont think it will cause drag anyways, i know its not the same size or anything but look at full size boat intakes on the skaters and stuff, they go 120mph with huge scoops. When my boat will work ill do some prototyping.

PHil ;) :huh: :)
 
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Those are intakes and intakes only on those boats. They require intakes to supply air to the "sealed" engine compartment. Our boats aren't sealed. Regardless, the intakes do not provide any type of forced induction that you are looking for.
 
Guys,

Carburators operate through pressure differential. The high velocity of the air going through the venturi is at a lower than atmospheric pressure, causing the fuel to flow from the tank through the spraybar. If you "pressurize" the venturi, fuel draw decreases, causing the engine to run lean. This will, indeed, increase unloaded RPM, but overall HP suffers greatly. Think about what happens when you launch a boat with the engine too lean............ It dies.

Pressurized induction doesn't work on a 2-stroked engine, anyway. It is possible to install an impeller of some sort between the carb and the crankcase, so that the carb flows more are than the displacement of the engine, i.e. the carburator is mounted on top of a supercharger. The problem with this on a 2-stroke is that the exhaust port is open well after the transfer ports have closed. Any pressure you have induced into the crankcase, and thus the cylinder, is lost through the exhaust port, with the exception of what bounces back due to the effect of a tuned pipe. I suppose it may be possible to slightly increase the amount of pipe pressure by forcing more fuel/air through the system, but what every you used to create this pressure increase would rob you of more HP than you would gain in the end.

Something to think about. Brad.

Titan Racing Components
 
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Thanks alot for the useful info brad. How about you leave room for air to exscape if the pressure is to high and causes drag. If it will run to lean with the turbo and counteract it but making it run richer?

Phil :huh: <_< :unsure:
 
Good Point Brad,

this all stems from the bernoulli rule:

The Bernoulli Rule is basically a spin-off of the conservation of energy principal. The rule basically says that in order to have equal energy states air at low velocity high pressure on the outside of the carburetor inlet will be at an equal energy state to the air inside the carburetor that has High Velocity and Lower Pressure. This Equal energy state exists in the whole inside of the carburetor just inside the velocity stack and not at just the spraybar. There are some “high end” carbs that use this principal again inside the carb to create small areas within the low pressure zone with incrementally lower pressures and higher velocities.

So to some extent, the same thing is being said, just in different ways.

When one speaks in terms of fluid mechanics, the moving force is difference in pressure, not air velocity. One of the basic premises of fluid mechanics is that matter flows with a constant energy state naturally from to Low Pressure regions from High Pressure regions. Meteorologists, engineers, and physicists generally use the terms of pressure as the motivating element behind the movement of mass.

Atmospheric pressure exists everywhere and is around 14psi depending on altitude and weather.

Lets perform a little class experiment regarding this assertion disregarding the effects of gravity:

When a motor is first started the fuel cell is at atmospheric pressure but not for long because it increased by backpressure from the exhaust side of the motor. When the motor is running at some steady state the pressure in the fuel cell is actually higher than atmospheric pressure, and would flow right out of the fuel line if you disconnected it from the carburetor (removed it from the high velocity air). If you disconnected the fuel line from the carb it would be connected to the atmosphere and the atmosphere is at Atmospheric pressure. Fuel would continue to flow into the atmosphere and atmospheric pressure would not push it back. In other words, fuel would flow out of the fuel line until the fuel cell is at atmospheric pressure. When the fuel cell is at atmospheric pressure the flow would stop. Another way to state this is that Atmospheric pressure does not push the fuel into the carburetor assembly.

The Mathematics of the Bernoulli Principle

The Bernoulli Principle is a statement of energy balance. It correctly states that for certain conditions (steady flow, no friction and incompressible fluid), the sum of the thermal, kinetic and gravitational energies is constant at all locations. Thus, for fluid moving through a system of pipes of varying cross section, the fluid that moves through narrow pipes, moves fast and has low pressure while the fluid that moves through wide pipes moves slowly and has high pressure. The formula for this principle is:

ET + EK + EG = k

For systems that do not involve gravity change, this becomes

ET + EK = k

Thermal energy + kinetic energy is everywhere constant.

Now since ET = PV and EK = Mv²/2

PV + Mv²/2 = k

The product of Pressure and Volume plus 1/2 the product of Mass and the square of velocity is everywhere constant.

So for flow from a large diameter pipe to a small diameter pipe within a closed system, velocity (v) increases so pressure (P) falls. Students often interpret Bernoulli's Principle to say that that fast flow "causes" low pressure. In practice, the opposite is true since it takes a pressure gradient to "cause" fluids to flow. Continuing,

Dividing both sides by volume,

P + dv²/2 = k

and, rearranging,

P = k - dv²/2

So, an increase in velocity indicates a decrease in pressure.

So back to how this applies to the supercharger:

When the induction port of the engine is closed, the Supercharger surcharges the pressure of the air in the intake manifold to a pressure above atmospheric pressure. At this point there is no flow in the carb and the fuel will flow backwards toward the fuel cell until there is flow in the carb. It appears that the proper way to choke this system would be to choke off the exhaust, so that when it is choked the supercharger will surcharge the fuel system enough to provide pressure that is equal to the pressure in the intake manifold when the induction port is closed. Therefore, there would be sufficient pressure gradient to provide fuel flow in the carb when the intake manifold pressure drops because the induction port is open.

In Summary:

This supercharger will probably work to some extent, but would probably be best suited for the smallest motors since the pressure gradients are very small. The added load from moving parts would probably largely diminish any performance improvements in the motor. Larger systems would probably have a problem with popping fuel lines and leaking fuel systems. Just about every time I go to the pond I break something before returning home. It seems like this would be just another thing to break.
 
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Weeeee Doggies..... Now thats some kinda cypher'n

You would never guess Kev was dat smart talkin to him on tha phone....... :p :lol:
 
Some of the older desil truck engines where super charged 2 strokes. It's where the 671 blower comes from. They would control the preasure with the exaust valve timing.

Super charging 2 stroke model engines has been done but whether it's worth it or not I don't know. I have an article from a model engine design and building magazine, the article is about building engines for tether cars. In this case the builder made a single cylinder engine, about .21 ci, and had another cylinder running tandom to it, about .35 ci, being used as an air fuel pump to charge the smaller cylinder. I thought it was a good concept. You would need to change the head volume to hold the extra charge and exhaust timing to retain it.

With some good pipe tuning you would get about the same result. It sounded like a real hair puller so I didn't mess with it.
 
Kevin,

:unsure: :huh: :blink: WOW......................!

To the rest of the English speaking world,

In order to reap anything from a supercharger or turbocharger, you must be able to contain the excess pressure within the cylinder until comustion takes place. Without some sort of mechanical exhaust valve, this is not possible. As previously stated, the older diesels were this built this way with some success. At the RPM's we're talking about, I think Kevin is right........... Just one more failure point. The tuned pipe is your "supercharger". Get it tuned right and you will get more out of it than any manifold pressurizing system will ever yield.

Thanks. Brad.

Titan Racing Components
 
izitbrokeyet? said:
Good Point Brad,
this all stems from the bernoulli rule:

The Bernoulli Rule is basically a spin-off of the conservation of energy principal. The rule basically says that in order to have equal energy states air at low velocity high pressure on the outside of the carburetor inlet will be at an equal energy state to the air inside the carburetor that has High Velocity and Lower Pressure. This Equal energy state exists in the whole inside of the carburetor just inside the velocity stack and not at just the spraybar. There are some “high end” carbs that use this principal again inside the carb to create small areas within the low pressure zone with incrementally lower pressures and higher velocities.

So to some extent, the same thing is being said, just in different ways.

When one speaks in terms of fluid mechanics, the moving force is difference in pressure, not air velocity. One of the basic premises of fluid mechanics is that matter flows with a constant energy state naturally from to Low Pressure regions from High Pressure regions. Meteorologists, engineers, and physicists generally use the terms of pressure as the motivating element behind the movement of mass.

Atmospheric pressure exists everywhere and is around 14psi depending on altitude and weather.

Lets perform a little class experiment regarding this assertion disregarding the effects of gravity:

When a motor is first started the fuel cell is at atmospheric pressure but not for long because it increased by backpressure from the exhaust side of the motor. When the motor is running at some steady state the pressure in the fuel cell is actually higher than atmospheric pressure, and would flow right out of the fuel line if you disconnected it from the carburetor (removed it from the high velocity air). If you disconnected the fuel line from the carb it would be connected to the atmosphere and the atmosphere is at  Atmospheric pressure. Fuel would continue to flow into the atmosphere and atmospheric pressure would not push it back. In other words, fuel would flow out of the fuel line until the fuel cell is at atmospheric pressure. When the fuel cell is at atmospheric pressure the flow would stop. Another way to state this is that Atmospheric pressure does not push the fuel into the carburetor assembly.

The Mathematics of the Bernoulli Principle

The Bernoulli Principle is a statement of energy balance. It correctly states that for certain conditions (steady flow, no friction and incompressible fluid), the sum of the thermal, kinetic and gravitational energies is constant at all locations. Thus, for fluid moving through a system of pipes of varying cross section, the fluid that moves through narrow pipes, moves fast and has low pressure while the fluid that moves through wide pipes moves slowly and has high pressure. The formula for this principle is:

ET + EK + EG = k

For systems that do not involve gravity change, this becomes

ET + EK = k

Thermal energy + kinetic energy is everywhere constant.

Now since ET = PV and EK = Mv²/2

PV + Mv²/2 = k

The product of Pressure and Volume plus 1/2 the product of Mass and the square of velocity is everywhere constant.

So for flow from a large diameter pipe to a small diameter pipe within a closed system, velocity (v) increases so pressure (P) falls. Students often interpret Bernoulli's Principle to say that that fast flow "causes" low pressure. In practice, the opposite is true since it takes a pressure gradient to "cause" fluids to flow. Continuing,

Dividing both sides by volume,

P + dv²/2 = k

and, rearranging,

P = k - dv²/2

So, an increase in velocity indicates a decrease in pressure.

So back to how this applies to the supercharger:

When the induction port of the engine is closed, the Supercharger surcharges the pressure of the air in the intake manifold to a pressure above atmospheric pressure. At this point there is no flow in the carb and the fuel will flow backwards toward the fuel cell until there is flow in the carb. It appears that the proper way to choke this system would be to choke off the exhaust, so that when it is choked the supercharger will surcharge the fuel system enough to provide pressure that is equal to the pressure in the intake manifold when the induction port is closed. Therefore, there would be sufficient pressure gradient to provide fuel flow in the carb when the intake manifold pressure drops because the induction port is open.

In Summary:

This supercharger will probably work to some extent, but would probably be best suited for the smallest motors since the pressure gradients are very small. The added load from moving parts would probably largely diminish any performance improvements in the motor. Larger systems would probably have a problem with popping fuel lines and leaking fuel systems. Just about every time I go to the pond I break something before returning home. It seems like this would be just another thing to break.
Bull,

smarta$$. ;)

But how does the RB charger work? Or does it?
 
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But how does the RB charger work? Or does it?
I really don’t know anything about that RB unit....but I sure would like to try one out just for kicks.....only thing is I'd like to try one out on someone else’s motor :p

We know a guy who swears he's seen one work, and it ran like a scalded dog, but it blew up the motor :huh:
 
I ran one on my R/C dragster and it does work..... It has some issues getting the motor to idle with it, but for my application(extremely high "idle" and then WOT), it seemed to work pretty well, only palyed with it for a little while before I sold everything, was running it on a .21 picco buggy engine....

I know a guy here locally that has one on his Tmaxx and its a pain to keep it running, but when it does run, it runs pretty good.

~James
 
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