Thoughts on the Stock Class rules

[Mark Bullard]

I have always been opposed to a stock class. I know when they were trying to create the outboard stock class it was all about a beginners class. But I never saw a beginner racing that class. John Equa and a few of us work out the details for the class. We decided it will be call B Sport Outboard class. At the time there were only K&B 21 outboards. So we came up with a simple go/no-go gauge for the carb and the exhaust outlets on the foot. I was hanging out at the local short track and came up with the claiming rule. The rule was based on the price of a new motor at the time. These rules worked for many years as you could do anything you wanted to the inside of the motor but was limited on the bore and exhaust of the motor.
One of our old past presidents Fred McBroom said it best whenever a stock class came up. "A stock class promotes cheating." There is a lot of truth to that statement.
So a go/no-go gauge for the carb plus the carb number. And some sort of can muffler that all motors must run that a go/no-go gauge will fit into the outlets. And if you like the claiming rule of what a new motor price is at that time.
Or the next thing is to not even have a stock class that would promote cheating. Just do bore & stroke. This way a motor can be protested. This keeps it simple for the hosting clubs.

 

[SayMikey]

At the last gas nats it took 2 guys 1.5 to 2 hours to tech all the stock classes. If 1 motor is illegal you have to keep going down the line till you get to a good one. Also, if someone is "illegal " you have to check it several times to make sure .The club was lucky to find the guys committed to the job. If there were a claim rule I would just get a spare broke in motor to have on hand. Easy fix.

Actually Wes it was one guy teaching another.

 

[Wesleys Custom RC]

Your making my point exactly. If we continue to tech motors, there has to be a better faster way.
One thought is to ask the guys racing in the class if they want the motors to be checked. If the majority doesn’t, there is no reason to do so and a winner is named. If they do only tech the first place boat and give the Tech’s 10 minutes to make a call. If he passes tech it’s over and If he is DQed move on to the 2nd place boat. To make it easy, come up with 5 or 6 items for the tech’s to check and that’s it.

As far as claiming goes, so long as it’s done at the end of the race after all the heats are done and a guy gets enough money to buy a new replacement, I don’t have a problem with that and see no reason why tech inspections and claiming can’t co-ex-exzist.

We have done a pill draw for tech in the past. It worked but it is still 1 more thing to do and if it is a small club like ours it can be a pain. I actually like the either, or (claim or tech) as long as the claim gives you cost plus tax plus shipping. I'd do that ANY day of the week. Go to a race, get a new motor? Heck ya!

 

[SayMikey]

Think about it 4 stock classes that's only 4 motors if they are legal. In my opinion id only tech at national events. There is always the protest rule, but while racers complain about they think someone is cheating its rare for someone to protest.

 

[ChrisHerzog]

I have always been opposed to a stock class. I know when they were trying to create the outboard stock class it was all about a beginners class. But I never saw a beginner racing that class. John Equa and a few of us work out the details for the class. We decided it will be call B Sport Outboard class. At the time there were only K&B 21 outboards. So we came up with a simple go/no-go gauge for the carb and the exhaust outlets on the foot. I was hanging out at the local short track and came up with the claiming rule. The rule was based on the price of a new motor at the time. These rules worked for many years as you could do anything you wanted to the inside of the motor but was limited on the bore and exhaust of the motor.
One of our old past presidents Fred McBroom said it best whenever a stock class came up. "A stock class promotes cheating." There is a lot of truth to that statement.
So a go/no-go gauge for the carb plus the carb number. And some sort of can muffler that all motors must run that a go/no-go gauge will fit into the outlets. And if you like the claiming rule of what a new motor price is at that time.
Or the next thing is to not even have a stock class that would promote cheating. Just do bore & stroke. This way a motor can be protested. This keeps it simple for the hosting clubs.

I agree with a lot of what you have said Mark. I hate the word Stock and agree with Fred completely. There are 4 classes in IMPBA that run (STOCK) motors. They are Stock Mono, Stock Cat, Thunderboat and Cracker Box. I believe the word Stock should be replace with the word Spec. In doing this a Tech would be looking to see if the motor meets the numbers the factory gives it and can over look some of the things that I feel are petty. Carbs on a gas boat are complicated in that there are so many available. A bore measurement with a mic might be the easiest way to go with this in order to make that part simple and fast.
Exhaust is like using fighting words. I have had more arguments with guys about exhaust, can mufflers vs pipes, then I care to talk about. You will never get a majority to run canisters, I would leave that one alone.
Your a engine guy, if you were writing the rules and you could only pick as many as 5 or 6 items to look at and tech, what would those be? Keep in mind, fast, simple and fair across the board.


So this is where I am at right now…

I’m really starting to lean towards a fast and simple tech process with a claiming rule of say 250.00 after racing has concluded for that class at that event. Tech would have to win a majority vote by the guys racing in each class after racing has concluded in order to move forward with checking engines. Then only tech the first place boat and only if that engine fails tech would the 2nd place boat be checked and so on until a winner is named. Claiming would be allowed only after the tech process is completed and would go down in the order of where you placed from first to last. You either claim or you pass. Tie scores in regards to the claiming order would be settled with a coin flip. Only the first place motor can be claimed at an event and it can only be claimed once per event at that said event. Any claims made, have to be announced within 30 minutes after that class has concluded including the conclusion of any tech inspections.

I still need to come up with a good list of the 5 or 6 items to be checked if a tech inspection is called for.

 

[Tom Foley]

Anyone caught cheating should have to take everyone at the race out to dinner that night and spend the rest of the day in the CD stand turn judging along with grounds cleanup after the race .

 

[Grimracer]

Go no go racing is about the best ya can do... if you have these classes racing at the NATS they are now far from a beginners class..

IMPBA Sport tunnel works.. inspection is easy fast and creates VERY little animosity between racers.

Restrictor plate seems to be the easy button.. you dont need to hand them out either.. if the test slug fits.. its no good. Put it on the outside of the carb inlet so its easy to check before or even after each round. If Jonnie jump jet make one out of plastic and Timmy two time makes one out of titanium.. so what.. end game has been met.

Grim

 

[ChrisHerzog]

Go no go racing is about the best ya can do... if you have these classes racing at the NATS they are now far from a beginners class..

IMPBA Sport tunnel works.. inspection is easy fast and creates VERY little animosity between racers.

Restrictor plate seems to be the easy button.. you dont need to hand them out either.. if the test slug fits.. its no good. Put it on the outside of the carb inlet so its easy to check before or even after each round. If Jonnie jump jet make one out of plastic and Timmy two time makes one out of titanium.. so what.. end game has been met.

Grim

I pushed like hell for restrictor plates years ago but like canisters it became a knock down drag out argument whenever it came up.

The reason that I would want them between the carb and jug is so that there is a seal between the plate and carb. On the outside the carb you would have to come up with a way to seal it so that the only air going into the motor goes through the hole in the center. Just trying to avoid more arguments.

Again to me that is the easiest way to control it. A restrictor with say a 1/4” or 3/8” hole for air and any and everything else is good.

 

[ChrisHerzog]

Anyone caught cheating should have to take everyone at the race out to dinner that night and spend the rest of the day in the CD stand turn judging along with grounds cleanup after the race .

The word cheating is to open to personal interpretation. There is obvious stuff like cutting the timing and then questionable stuff like torquing all bolts. They are not built like that from the factory so is that a form of cheating? It can get kind of petty that’s why I think the very first thing that needs to happen is to loose the word stock and replace it with spec.

 

[FloridaScaleBoater]

Anyone caught cheating should have to take everyone at the race out to dinner that night and spend the rest of the day in the CD stand turn judging along with grounds cleanup after the race .

I like that **** right there now!!!

 

[Tom Foley]

The word cheating is to open to personal interpretation. There is obvious stuff like cutting the timing and then questionable stuff like torquing all bolts. They are not built like that from the factory so is that a form of cheating? It can get kind of petty that’s why I think the very first thing that needs to happen is to loose the word stock and replace it with spec.

Bottom line is everyone knows what stock really means but I do see Spec as a clarification tool . Stock carb , stock gaskets , stock squish , stock bearings ,crank , rod , piston . Any plug , stock ignition , Specify exhaust .

 

[bzubee]

What your saying is any reason to open up a motor is grounds for a DQ? How petty do we need to get Bill? Personally I would have replaced the jug but in my opinion getting DQed for that was petty. Again my opinion.

This again is why I think we should come up with a list of maybe 5 or 6 items for guys to tech and call it a day. Keep it simple, keep it fair, make it reasonable and fast and live with the results. If we want to add a claim rule on top of that then so be it. It can all be done much simpler and faster is all I’m saying.

Or do away with the stock class all together since at the last national races it hasn't been "STOCK". The rules are there in the book follow them or change the rules. That's why I'm out of the stock classes. Chris you can't hardly get a more simple tech process than the Sport Tunnel Hull class at the last Voo Doo race did you see anyone tech any sport tunnell hull boat ? Procedures are listed in the rulebook a simple go/no go Guage is all that required and a visual inspection of the outside of the engine. Swirls in the carb throat oblong carb inlet or exhaust outlets simple to check but very seldom done.

 

[ChrisHerzog]

Or do away with the stock class all together since at the last national races it hasn't been "STOCK". The rules are there in the book follow them or change the rules. That's why I'm out of the stock classes. Chris you can't hardly get a more simple tech process than the Sport Tunnel Hull class at the last Voo Doo race did you see anyone tech any sport tunnell hull boat ? Procedures are listed in the rulebook a simple go/no go Guage is all that required and a visual inspection of the outside of the engine. Swirls in the carb throat oblong carb inlet or exhaust outlets simple to check but very seldom done.

That’s my goal Bill, to change the name and make it simple.

 

[ChrisHerzog]

So confused by this thread. A lot of what you speak of is in the rule book Chris. We can't even get clubs to host races anymore due to the workload and now we want to add teching motors to the list? I agree with Mike with just teching at national events.

Why do people always get caught up with the motor in the stock classes. Are we assuming the guys winning are cheating? Is that why you want the claim rule or the restrictor plate?

Guys that consistently win put in the test time, are good drivers, nail the start in lane 1 and set the boat up correctly. Most of the time gained is made up with cornering speed.

I think what we have has worked well and the number of consistent entries back that up. It's rare to not see multiple heats of thunderboat and stock mono at the races.

Damn, have you even read what I have written or did you just read a piece of what I wrote here and there and come to your misinformed conclusion?

Let me try and take you through it one more time.
The goal here is to start a dialogue on how to make it as simple as it can possibly be. Simple, fast and fair. That to me means less work for everyone involved. Less work, less BS on EVERYONE!!! For instance, at a recent race this year someone was DQed for honing a cylinder. The guy had a blemish in an old good running engine and instead of swapping the cylinder out he tried to save a couple of bucks and he honed it. Doing this does absolutely nothing to increase the preformance of this engine, in fact most likely does the opposite and yet after winning almost all his heats he was DQed. That is not the intent of the class, it never was “I was there in the very beginning when this class came to be” and in my opinion, is way overboard. Using a mic and having to check every single part of an engine is a complete waist of time and again not the intent of the Stock classes.

I want to change the name from a Stock class to a Spec class witch is what it should be. If you don’t know the difference between the two classes you need to look into it. Everyone brags about how easy the 20 Stock OB class goes, it’s because it’s not a Stock Class and not called a Stock yet a lot of people mistakenly call it that. The word STOCK is at least 80% of the problem. By calling it a SPEC class it eliminates almost all of the BS making it easier on EVERYONE involved.

Claiming, was suggestions made by others and not me. Trying to come up with something that is EASY, FAST and FAIR, I tried to include that into what I wrote above in what I felt was a fair and practical way.

I also said things like if nobody cares about how the outcome of a class ended up, no tech was then necessary. Speeding things up for a club by having less work for the club.

I really don’t have a problem if I make a suggestion and someone don’t care for it, but do me a favor and at least read what I wrote before you go off on me again.

EASY, FAST and FAIR so almost anyone can do Tech is what I started out after. How that makes things harder on a club or CD is beyond me. And I never said this had to be done at every race by every club, every time. However, pulling an engine completely apart and having someone put a mic on every part somehow works for you and saves time and work for a host club? Yep, no problem there!

 

[osracer]

I like the claiming rule but I would have the guy claiming pay the price of a new motor and give you his motor also. He will really feel dumb when he gets beat by his old engine the next week. Point is, I think the people winning races are doing it with good set ups and good driving. I don’t think their is that much cheating going on, I think it’s guys getting beat that figure the only way that could happen is if someone was cheating.

 

[Duke Mordja]

If I beat everybody with a worn out stock motor, is that legal? Its not stock! LOL

I agree with Bill, I don't think there is cheating going on. The ladies and gentlemen I race with in D4 area have way more to lose cheating than winning a toy boat race. I just hope the stock motors are all being built to rule book specs.

 

[ChrisHerzog]

I like the claiming rule but I would have the guy claiming pay the price of a new motor and give you his motor also. He will really feel dumb when he gets beat by his old engine the next week. Point is, I think the people winning races are doing it with good set ups and good driving. I don’t think their is that much cheating going on, I think it’s guys getting beat that figure the only way that could happen is if someone was cheating.

That would be fun to try and work that in somehow. Maybe say….Instead of the cost of a new motor and the claimer’s motor, let it be up to the guy who’s motor is being claimed to pick what he wants. Take the cost of a new motor say (250.00) OR take (150.00) and the motor from the boat of the person claiming his motor.

Set-up Set-up Set-up that was drilled into my head by all the big wigs I hung with when I was a kid just getting started. It would be fun to beat someone making a bunch of noise with their own motor.

 

[ChrisHerzog]

If I beat everybody with a worn out stock motor, is that legal? Its not stock! LOL

I agree with Bill, I don't think there is cheating going on. The ladies and gentlemen I race with in D4 area have way more to lose cheating than winning a toy boat race. I just hope the stock motors are all being built to rule book specs.

I doubt there is much cheating going on also. In our club there are a bunch of really competitive guys and no body ever complains of anyone cheating. When they practice they practice hard and you can tell that most of the boats run really close to the same speed. It always comes down to the driving on our practice days. However, when you go to a big race there is always that “guy” making a bunch of noise over nothing. I hate that stuff.

 

[LohringMiller]

Has anyone actually done careful testing to see how much all these non stock changes make? What is reasonable to actually tech? I know how much a simple break in changes power. I also know how much power different pipes make. If you allow any pipe I bet the best will have a t least a 10% improvement over the worst. The best mod engines develop around 1 1/2 hp more than a stock Zenoah.

Show me actual test results with changes in all the exotic things you think matter in a stock engine and you will actually know what is important. As an example; does removing the seal springs add more power than a brake in? I bet not. That wold mean that all you need to do is measure the bore, stroke, and carb bore as well as checking visually for grinding in the cylinder. You wouldn't need to remove the engine from the boat. A quick stroke check on all motors in a heat as well as a water jacket diameter check will tell you if the bore and stroke are stock on all engines.

Lohring Miller

 

[Don Ferrette]

I agree with Bill, I don't think there is cheating going on.

That's the funniest thing I've read all day. It is going on and has been going on for some time.