The KISS Principle

[Slideblues]

Hey Guy's

As a child of the 50's I have seen the hobby market go through many phases.

I started out with control line planes, went to 1/24th slots, RC cars, and then to boats and now back to both.

Guess my point is to survive the economic changes the hobby market may have to "Keep It Simple Stupid" and try to get something going that everyone can afford and then motivate the people to stay involved and stick with it.

I'll use RC cars for a example, 89 bucks fer a matched set of 6 cells, the latest turnbuckles and chassis revs to stay competitive 250 bucks for a chassis kit, Come On!!!

The little feller is gonna tap daddy out and then ya add replacement parts from crashes.

Boats are a little better, that is usually the latest model will be in the front of the pack for at least the full season before a change is needed, but watch out on the latest stuff comming out in tha Fall.

My ideas are just my own thinking and I feel that a change might be needed to try and get through the gas price hike for one example if the hobbyist is to survive in the new economy that we have goin on now.

I just try to get my kids out in tha fresh air and doin something with there hands and brain, rather than set in front of tha tube and play'n some new Nintendo release, or spending endless hours talkin on tha telephone.

K..... Im done,

Gene

 

[Eric Perez]

I think the easiet way of controlling expenses is to not think of it as "racing" your boat -but more like controlled "playing" with your boat.

That has been the best way for me to control expenses. A lot of money is wasted in the name of "racing". Think of it as playing with toy boats and things really get into perspective quickly.

Does it mean go to less out of town races? Maybe -but at least you show up at the pond and keep the club going. Some people tend to run with it until they cannot afford nitro fuel -then it all over...

If we would be racing shopping carts we would be going through CNC machined cart wheels like it was going out of style. It's the nature of racing. Racing = spending bucks to be ahead. I used to be very active in RC cars in my area, racing as much as I could. Usually did well -but spent some major bucks to stay with the pack. Now I bash with my Sport maxx at the local school playground and stay away from the rc track.

The rc car industry (Me included) has been unable to design cost-controlled classes even at the local level, this has and will continue to be a challenge. That's why 1 million T-maxxes have been sold -and only 5 make it to the race track on T-Maxx night...

Is there trully a way of making cost controlled rc boat racing? rc boat "playing" stands a better chance...

More hot air from Eric h34r:

 

[Grimracer]

Right on Eric

I think that this was done quite well with the 12 bud boat but we as a groop did not know how to take advantage if it.

grim

 

[GMC7]

I think that this was done quite well with the 12 bud boat but we as a groop did not know how to take advantage of it.
grim

Right on Mike,

We are losing alot of would be boat racers by not recognizing a way to attract these boaters through the .12 Bud boat, we can blame it on the local clubs, NAMBA, IMPBA and the others by not having a quick insight to a class that CAN BE CHEAP and rewarding! .

Of course there maybe clubs that have taken this class in, but I am not aware of any!

Steve

 

[SColby]

I think that it is not only cost that may be keeping new people out, it is the lack of places to run. Around my area there is no pond for, what is left of the club, to run in. When you don't have people out running you are not going to bring people in to the hobby. It is kind of like advertising, with out it you don't sell the product. The lhs's hardly carry any boat stuff and when you go in for some or ask about anything you feel like you are in your own world. Yes there is a need for affordable boats that practically anyone can get but there is also a need for more ponds to run in to show people what it is all about. One other thing is that without this site I wouldn't know about upcoming races to attend and watch. So like I mentioned without getting people out there to "show it off" you are not going to get people to join in.

 

[Slideblues]

Yep thats what we got goin on here too, I talked to the LHS owner bout the same subject and he said other than his tight group of pattern flyers, the walk ins are all T Maxx kits or upgrades.

He did bring in three .12 Bud boats, sold one dats it,

Gene

 

[Ron Olson]

I used to race R/C buggies and trucks along with the wife and kid. I spent most of my spare time getting them ready for the next weeks race. Trying to keep up with the hot shot drivers and The Hot Setup of The Week got old and expensive. New kits coming out every 6 months and the aftermarket pieces on the shelves before the latest, greatest truck is out.

Now to the boats. Hobby Shops would be happier than Hell to carry boats if there is the demand. You can't hardly spit around here without hitting a pond, especially now with the flooding. When they do carry boats, they get what they can from their Distributors and we all know what kind of stuff that they have! Miss Bud's, Nitro Hammers, Nitro Vee's are the usual.

Yeah, it would be cool to get these people to a race or racing with their toys. Most races are already full with a 1 day race right now with some combining or eliminating classes to get them over with at a decent time. Do you want to see 6 Nitro Hammers or Miss Bud's racing at once? With these boats all on 27 Mhz, frequency conflicts up the Wazoo! The manufacturers need to go to the other channels if these people plan on racing. Can you imagine 6 ProBoat Miss Bud's all on the water at once in the hands of Newbies? What a mess that would be!

If you want to get some interest going in your area, try a Fun Run. Throw some fliers in the LHS's to invite everybody to show up with their boats or just watch!

Steve, you people in Grand Rapids have a problem there, plenty of water but you can't run your boats inside of the City Limits on public water.

The IMPBA does have a Spec class of sorts for new boaters called the ABS class. Yes, it's in the rulebook. Any club can have this type or other type of class that they want, just show them that there is a demand and some will provide it. I myself would love to see Sport 20 here in D-2, I'd have a Phil Thomas hull in a Heartbeat!

 

[SColby]

Why the T-maxx or anyting else that everyone is after? Because that is what they are seeing. Is the cost that much less than a .12 boat? For what I can recall about prices I don't think so. If you can afford a nitro truck or car you can afford a boat. Not only that but the convience of going out your front door and running instead of having to drive 1/2 hour or an hour to find a place to run is very pleasing to most poeple. It is all about convinece and what your friends are doing.

You are right Ron. There is plenty of water. People say it is because of the noise but what is the differnece between nitro cars/truck running or boats? I am fortunate to have two differnet lakes to run at so it isn't a problem for me. As I see it if we could get a pond ot run where people could watch and/or join in there would be more demand for the boats and more poeple climbing aboard.

 

[nitrotoys]

THere is only 1 hobby store around me worth going to for boat stuff, and thats Als hobbies. THe other ones, dont have NOTHING for boats, they dont care to handle boats. they want to handle the $300 dollar ready to runs and when they break, the buyer comes back for more parts. WE WILL HAVE TO ORDER THAT.

Its to the point where i got SICK Of going to other hobby stores, walked out pissed off, said never going back.

Course with the internet sights, and people buying parts on line, for trucks, cars, trains, boats. What keeps the hobby stores money rolling in?

Theres things Als dont carry, Cindy is WONDERFULL for ordering things, If i get a couple items, she then will STOCK Them.

I try and support my LHS but things are so much cheeper on line. Shes got a wall of props but there out dated. Nothing really "new"

I know the little miss buds are good little boats to tinker with. But if you start out and bite the bullet, and get a GOOD hull, GOOD engine, GOOD hardware, when something wears out or breaks, you can replace just the part and not the boat.

A Friend of mine will spend 100s on heli parts, But he will NOT get a boat, as i dont think he cares to chase it when it dies out on him.

What people do NOT KNOW is, BUYING THE CAR, TRUCK, BOAT---RTR--- is the CHEEP PART. LOL They learn that things break and wear out, and costs a arm and a leg to get replacements or UPGRADES for it.

A neighbor kid, got a tmaxx, he thought mine was cool, well within 3 months, there isnt ANY PLASTIC on it, all Alumn

SUCKED IN.

Tom

 

[izitbrokeyet?]

Steve is right,

also,

Consider a "trans-Am" class with a stipulated boat and stipulated power plant. Seems to me that Kyosho had a promising boat for this class last year with a mono hull and a decent power plant. IMPBA or NAMBA for that matter should be able to pool enough buyers to create a terrific price structure on say 15-20 units and the price would go down if the agreement was for more units.

Problem is…..most it seems like most boaters would rather tinker with some cheap old piece-0-Junk motor and hull to learn rather than trust enough to commit to pooling efforts for this type of thing.

Food for thought http://smiley.onegreatguy.net/****.gif

 

[DJT]

Slide

Most people find it easier to part with thier money than admit that they could use some driving practice to make themselves go faster. I work in a hobby shop and see it every day.

SColby

Places to run are a problem, where we run we have had ducks hit and even some killed. I'm just waiting to get kicked out.

Ron

I don't know if you are refering to the rtr's as toys in a bad way or not, but the people who are buying rtr's make up a large part of the new boaters. They and thier rtr's should be treated like gold, they are the future of boating.

Nitrotoys

As far as things being cheaper online, what happens when you need a foot of fuel tubing, a glow plug, or a bottle of glue on sunday afternoon. Go to the lhs, oh wait they went out of business because every one buys online, have fun waiting to go boating.

Back to Slide

As far as keeping it simple, I think thats a fantastic idea. And lest start right here on this board, next time someone asks for a prop recomendation how about suggesting a prop that will work out of the package (balanced of course), not some cupped, tweaked, cut, modified prop that the novice will have no idea what you are talking about, much less how to do it. You know something they can buy off the shelf and not be discouraged by the price. Nothing against the prop guys out there, i've seen some of your work and I think it's wonderfull. I just don't think the novice should think he has to spend a bunch of money on a prop just to get his boat to go.

 

[Slideblues]

Well I can see your point, most of the time try to keep suggestions to a

"This is what works for my setup and driving style" thang, Let the mod stuff come later.

Just basic info for the new guy, so not to scare em off :lol:

 

[Mike G]

1/8th Bud Gas boat not even legal in IMPBA sport hydro class????

 

[Foolwitools]

Hi Guys!

Competition for the fun of it.........At a low- low cost?? try this............

In my area( and others I'm sure) they have a "Cardboard Cup Regatta" every labor day.

For a $20 or $25 entry fee, your team of 6 people gets a few big sheets of cardboard and 2 rolls of duct tape. Your team gets 2 hours to build a seaworthy craft from these materials, then the race begins!!!

Of course nobody gets very far, and the boats all turn to mush........but there are some very serious competetors....

oh yea, The winner gets(what else) a cardboard trophy!

Eric P. mentioned racing shopping carts.......A friend who lives in a small town in Colorado was telling me about the Fourty of July Bed Race. You build your bed frame (high tech casters, no doubt)......flop on a matress complete with sheets, blanket and pillow.........get the smallest and bravest young lady you can find to ride on it.......and four people push, pull,and/or carry the bed through the racecourse of streets and alleys. of course the required uniform for all participants are pajamas...............

Racing is more fun when everyone can participate. In our world of little boats, starting out is affordable for most.............Then you have to improve. get a better hull, build a better motor,learn a few tricks............There are those who can afford to go out and buy the newest, fastest, and best, but I think part of the fun is building things a little at a time, improving, learning, spinningout, blowing over , learning what CA and 5 min. epoxy are truely for!!

...........I'll get off the soap box now,

Bob the Fool :blink:

 

[izitbrokeyet?]

Yo Mike,

I'm thinking the idea is to make a new class to itself like Pro-Am or Trans-Am.

IE. "no bud-.12 = no race"

 

[Slideblues]

Bob yea, here is one that got me thinkin......Hmmmmm.........

See pic:

 

[Ron Olson]

Boats like the 1/12 Miss Bud can be either good or bad for the hobby. It can be a stepping stone to bigger and better boats or it can turn off a prospective boat racer. As most RTR or RTF boats, it does have it's share of problems so it can go either way.

I've heard of complaints on other sites that beginners boats don't have a class where they really fit in. look at all of the .15, .16, .18 and even .32 motors that are bastard sizes in boating. Put one in a class that it would fit in and you'd get your tail wupped.

It reminds me of 2 clowns that came to our local R/C off-road track with Radio Shack buggies. They thought that they were hot stuff strutting into the track until they were embarassed out of there trying to run against the Losi's and Associateds.

In Florida, a NASCAR type of boat racing was started. You bought a Warehouse Hobbies boat with a Homelite and about all that you could do to the boat was apply a NASCAR looking paint job. something like this can be both good and bad. NASCAR freaks loved getting a boat to run with their favorites drivers colors on it. Racing was close as everyone had basically the same setup. Bad thing, only one boat manufacturer was making the boats, no others got in on the class so you ran one of Tony's boats or couldn't get into it. I'm not slighting Tony but for instance, what else could you run against say, a Miss Bud that is even in the Ballpark. The ABS class would be cool if there were enough commercially made boats that fit in this class.

 

[Eric Perez]

Yea, I know what you mean. There does not seem to be much hope in getting RTR "racing quality" kits in the rc boat racing world. More of the rc racers are buying hulls from race shops -because they are willing to pay for good R&D and quality that the mass producers can't match.

There is little inscentive for a great-planes or Kyosho for that matter, to catter to a small crowd that races hulls and equipment made by the small-business owner (Speed shop owner).

It does not make any business sense to compete against the speed shops on R&D and quality -It cannot be done. That's why they will continue to make kits that are designed for goofing off at the local duck-pond. With odd-ball engines and motors and the like that don't fit our rules.

Those who are active racers know that the current format that we have today nitro and gas leave very little time to create extra classes for beginner plastic boats. I don't travel to races but have the benefit of living in an area that is very active in rc boat racing. Our two-day races are a rush to get things finished on Sunday to get everyone home (especially those who travell).

I will continue to recommend small electric boats to beginners because it's easier to get your feet wet and learn whithout burning too big a hole on the wallet. For whatever reason the fast-electric crowd has been able to catter to the newby more than the nitro/gas classes lots of carry over equipment from the rc cars is probaly a big help.

The .15 bud boat was probably one of the best things out there to get people into rc boat racing for less than $400. I bought one myself -but I can't leave things stock, so my curriosity has banned me from the same class that I'm trying to promote...when will I learn. All of our local hobby shops have been selling 1/12 miss buds -Neve seen one at a pond except mine -Who knows where these boats end up at -Maybe on E-bay...

Maybe the small nitro powered boats would be more at home in an electric boat club (That also did small nitro) -Just a thought.

 

[CySlyde]

If we would be racing shopping carts we would be going through CNC machined cart wheels like it was going out of style.

ever seen a bed race, or how bout barstool racing?

As far as things being cheaper online, what happens when you need a foot of fuel tubing, a glow plug, or a bottle of glue on sunday afternoon. Go to the lhs, oh wait they went out of business because every one buys online, have fun waiting to go boating.

the only hobbystore worth going to in this area is closed sundays which really sucks cause every other sunday i have off, other than that i usually have to work or do something else during thier hours of buisness. half the RC employees give me blank stares even when i give tehm part numbers. of course they will usually order anything i want, but tack $2-$5 minimum on top of the average online price (once they wanted almost $15 extra).. for a 10 piece order i've already saved at least $20 before shipping. but that doesn't mean i dont go to them, I have learned which employees will charge the least extra, and who will get it to me the fastest. as for the other store, i will only deal with them in extreeemely limited cases. I have tried to have them order parts 3 times.. only once have I recieved parts almost 5 months after I orderd it. during that time i called the manufacturer and was told the shop never placed the order. the shop told me the manufacturer was out of stock. all times they required payment up front. the last time i orderd i never got teh product and took several months to get my money back.. that was two years ago. I have only walked into the shop twice since. almost gave up on the project i was working on.

Consider a "trans-Am" class with a stipulated boat and stipulated power plant

I thought that was teh point of crackerbox.. but i'd go for something like that. I would also stipulate teh hardware

In Florida, a NASCAR type of boat racing was started. You bought a Warehouse Hobbies boat with a Homelite and about all that you could do to the boat was apply a NASCAR looking paint job. something like this can be both good and bad.

why couldn't that be done with a cen or bud.. even a nitro hammer
as for my own opinion too many manufacturers out there expect that you know what your doing. i can only name two products i have bought that have come with instructions. one was my cen... the other was my pay'n'pack. even some of the instructions i have seen are very vague. and hardly any of the hardware i boutght had screws, some of the hardware i got, i had to buy or make other hardware to make it work... when you ask the LHS guys they show you RTR's or RCBM and say "i dunno".. and if it werent for RCBM i woulda never thought to try a associated header on my cen to make the pipe fit like i wanted to. there is not much out there for the newbie who wants to buy a more advanced boat but doesn't have any of the experience found at a board like this. then once you get to half the ponds your told to leave.. if it werent for this board i wouldn't know that a weedwaker makes just as much if not more noise than my boat. so those who don't search for the knowledge give up because they are told tehy cant run. part of the reason RTR's are so popular is because they are easy. everything is there for you, and you don't have to go farther than your LHS to get one.

I'd like to stop and thank mark, wade, and ron for going out of thier way to help me out on almost everything so far.. I'd also like to thank grim, longball, and Rodney for the help with the paynpack.. not to mention everybody else on this board who has stoped and given some of thier expierence. I think I am lucky to have found this site. And its really cool what you guys did for DH he is very lucky to have the help of a great place like this.

sorry for making this so long.

 

[GTR]

Hi Guys

Very interesting topic and one that is being struggled with everywhere. Here in Oz we don't even have the numbers that you do and it is still an issue for us. The approach here was to introduce a Pro-Am boat - a fixed boat hardware combination with a free motor. Other major limiting factor NO NITRO (hey that will keep the cost down). I think this is a great class and I will get around to building one. I think 45 size boats are generally a bit quicker and easier to handle than finicky 21s. My only problem with this class is Joe Blow with XYZ 45 marine engine cannot compete with Mr Big Bucks who buys say a MAC or high end Pylon motor.

I only make the following observation as an outsider looking in - boating (NAMBA/IMPBA) and model RC cars suffer the same problem - too many classes and nothing that a beginner can buy and get in to with mortgaging the house. While everyone is happy to start out with lesser equipment the urge to be competitive soon takes over, problem is most of these people are not ready for serious equipment. The faster guys complain about the newbies getting in the way and the newbies complain about not being competetive and being treated like crap by the 'experts'.

I agree if a manufacturer could come up with a simple formula (not unlike the pro-boats) and there were classes to run them for newbies it would help build the new 'experts'. This is why I mentioned the issue of too many classes - iof course you cannot support another class when you have stock & mod tunnels, monos, hydros, cats etc etc. How many boats, people & dollars do you think there are to go around. This is a real issue for the clubs where they might even struggle to get a heat of the same boats together to run.

I don't really have a solution for you and don't want to highlight an issue that I think the buerocracy of your associations are unlikely to be able to deal with, but I think the answer is a dedicated class for newbies & LESS CLASSES overall.

Just my $0.02

ps. I forgot to mention the comments about racing quality RTR boats - if they all go the same speed reliably does it matter how fast they go? Is race quality a speed issue or reliability?