Take this H&M Viper Poll IF YOU HAVEN'T ELSEWHERE

[Paul Pachmayer]

Hey Guys,

Larry,

I never have done the box method of measuring my Viper. I only have one left and that one was inspected when I set the first LSH record with it at the SAWs last year. All I can say was it passed no problem.

Terry,

You can put forth ANY rule proposal you want and I would bet money it won't be good enough. Why? Because someone will pick it appart, no mater how it's worded those words will get twisted around until the look like a pretzel.

Botom line, if there isn't common sence and integrity used by all involved there will always be trouble.

I'll give you some examples;

Offshore boats, this ones a joke. You watch what happens at the Nats, No-Steps, El Lobos and other assorted sprint boats being used in offshore. Are they offshore boats? No. Are they "legal" under the rules? yes. Is that the intent of the class? I let you answer that one. For me, I understand what the "intent" is and I'll build boats with big freeboards and deep Vs.

Sport hydros, all you have to do is look at what happened at the SAWs. I can't belive that anyone that races the class wouldn't understand that a sport hydro should look like a unlimited or UL type of full bodied boat. But the rules give XYZ sizes and if it fits it's good.

I can see it now, someone with deep pockets filing suit against a CD, the race host and NAMBA because thier sport boat was DQed at a race when it clearly fit the rules. You can laugh at that statement but the way things are going I can see it happening.

Paul.

 

[Jeff Shriver]

Power as defined by class specificationMust look like a hydro

Not a rigger

Works for me.

 

[drobie]

Power as defined by class specificationMust look like a hydro

Not a rigger

Works for me.

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Works for me too, but as Paul indicated, somebody will push the envelope beyond the "intent".

Having a few basic specs in a rule helps protect against those types.

Interesting that H&M's website lists the Viper as 615 mm in length. 615 millimeter = 24.2125984 inch.

No wonder the guy who bought 3 hulls (2 for his kids) is pissed that all are short no matter how it's measured. He either spends another $400 bucks or is outa luck for the Nats. (And yes Larry, he could mod his hulls by gobbing them up with epoxy, but two are for his kids and he has a life outside FE and therefore no time to do it.)

And BTW, for all those that think this poll was worthless, it was simply me stickin' my neck out the behalf of him and others in a feeble attempt to try to find a workaround. (This wasn't about me, as my Viper is retired.)

So crucify me.

It failed and our friend has withdrawn from the Nats.

Hopefully, if there is a measurement for P and LSH, it'll be dropped to 23". If there isn't a length, I'm OK with that too.

 

[brooks93]

So crucify me

Works for me.. LOL

Doug again did you need a poll to say what has already been said a 100 times..

Polls are not the answer to everything and besides I can vote a 100 times if I want to.. Its very easy to do and I am sure you know that.

Plus it wouldn't matter what you or anyone came up with.. The rule would still be in place for the Nats.. that will not change this year

 

[T.S.Davis]

Paul,

But your missing the fun part. There is a formula by which you can have great fun finding solutions to rule disagreements. Back me up on this one Doug.

Here's what ya do.

Put your neck out just as Doug described. Put forth a proposal that's a compromise between the guys that want the rules to be like an iron blanket of death and those that would like the rules to include world piece and free love. Your proposal will need to provide piece and harmony. Now you too get to expereince the joy of being crucified by both groups. Man Doug hit the nail with a brick on that one.

You can look forward to comments like "stupid, assinign, total piece sh, self appointed, secret six, to many words" and my personal favorite "who the f' do you think you are!"

It used to irritate me that the rules had short comings. Little things like P sport refering to 1/16 scale. I couldn't understand why the old gaurd hadn't fixed the rules. Now I get it. Propose a change? bahaha Yeah let's get right on that. I'd rather eat the brick. Ambition to push FE forward is beaten completely out of any that can muster it through a barrage of insults and the chest thumping of ego maniacs.

Can't wait to have the LiPo debate. ye ha wa hoo

I think FE needs to take a little break from solving it's rule issues and get back to what brought us all together in the first place. THE RACING!!!!

The racing and pushing technology so hard it sqweels like a stuck pig. Let's go fast for a couple months and then we'll beat up the rules (and any that wonder into the light) some more after we've had some big fat stinky fun.

 

[drobie]

Doug again did you need a poll to say what has already been said a 100 times..
Polls are not the answer to everything and besides I can vote a 100 times if I want to.. Its very easy to do and I am sure you know that.

Plus it wouldn't matter what you or anyone came up with.. The rule would still be in place for the Nats.. that will not change this year

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Yada yada yada, Kelly.

It was posted when I learned that the Executive Board in the past has voted on issues without the general membership.

Because a bunch of brainless robots say the same thing 100 times doesn't mean that change is not possible.

That it's not probable is glaringly obvious. At one time, the world was flat and breaking the sound barrier would surely cause a plane to explode.

Overcoming those two pespectives were child's play compared to getting the FE world to think outside the procedural envelope.

Go ahead, you can have the last word, I'm done with this thread.

 

[crowebar]

I'll give you some examples;

Offshore boats, this ones a joke.  You watch what happens at the Nats, No-Steps, El Lobos and other assorted sprint boats being used in offshore.  Are they offshore boats? No. Are they "legal" under the rules? yes.  Is that the intent of the class? I let you answer that one.  For me, I understand what the "intent" is and I'll build boats with big freeboards and deep Vs. 

Sport hydros, all you have to do is look at what happened at the SAWs.  I can't belive that anyone that races the class wouldn't understand that a sport hydro should look like a unlimited or UL type of full bodied boat.  But the rules give XYZ sizes and if it fits it's good.

Paul.

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Paul, Are you sure about the offshore intent? When the first offshore class ran in 1999 it was clearly the intent of the class to be "offshore" as you described above. However, when the rules were put to paper that "Intent" was left behind. Instead, it was the decision of the person who wrote the actual rules that the offshore class we run today be patterned from the existing nitro offshore rules. The Nitro rules for offshore were, and are clearly more about how the race is run then what kind of boat is in the race. I know this because the person who wrote the rules we have today told me that. So, perhaps the "intent" isn't what you thought. Don't get me wrong Paul, I would love to see the class as you envison it. I had the offshore boat you described and sold it to get a more competitive boat as the rules dictated.

I don't know how you can write the rules to cover all the bases. Seems the harder you try to be specific, the more holes you open. Being a little vague in my eyes' forces me to fall well within the rules so that I don't get too close to that like! Stay away from the grey!

Unfortunatly, there are those who take the rules very litterally and will build a boat that they feel passes the test. Who's test though? We've both seen boats that make us scratch our heads and say "what was he thinking? That's a sport hydro?" I know what it is and you know what it is. I don't need a specific set of parameters to run a legal boat.

Still, as hard as I try to be legal I still get bit from time to time. I've had 3 cabovers. 1 is too short. My larsony has one legal length sponson where the other is a little short. The manufactures for each lists a legal length for each and I trusted them. What really gets me is the guy who thinks I knew all along they were short and was trying to get away with something, OR the guy who expected me to measure the boats before I ever ran then. I guess I should have but Geeesh.

I don't have any problem with the existing length requirements and happily comply. I also understand that there are those that do and if I can be convinced that it would be best for our organization to loose those requirements then I'll go there.

Dick

 

[brooks93]

Terry will stop beating around the bush and tell us whats on your mind.. we are not mind readers.. LOL

Doug I am not against you on what your trying to do or prove I actually agree with what your saying.

 

[Steve Vasdekis]

I don't know if this has been covered as there are many pages across 2 boards, but if the problem with the hulls coming up short has to the do with manufacturing then base the length on the original plug and this should clear things up. I know I have had many of the same hulls and no two are alike in length or weight.

 

[Paul Pachmayer]

Hi Dick,

Paul, Are you sure about the offshore intent? When the first offshore class ran in 1999 it was clearly the intent of the class to be "offshore" as you described above.

You know Dick I can't say what the thought process was. I do know when I look at the rules (here we go :blink: ) the class is called offshore which brings a picture to mind of what an offshore boat is. The same thing holds true for sport hydros. Now, there's that wacky wording that says "may resemble", what the hell does that mean? It means if it doesn't "resemble" a real offshore boat it's okay too.

Now, the new offshore proposal is a bit more tight on what an offshore boat is but I'm not so sure it keeps the sprint boats from running in the class.

I had the offshore boat you described and sold it to get a more competitive boat as the rules dictated.

There's the problem. If the only thing I wanted to do was win a race (not to say that isn't a goal) I know exactly the boats I would pick to do the job. None of them are offshore boats. I like to take the hobby as a whole, my boats need to be fast but they also HAVE to fit where their placed and look the part. There's a fine line here between insulting someone and voicing my opinion so please don't take what I'm saying as a slam. It's just that offshore should be just that and not a 4 minute sprint race just like sport hydro should be emulating their full size counterparts.

Paul.

 

[brooks93]

Now, the new offshore proposal is a bit more tight on what an offshore boat is but I'm not so sure it keeps the sprint boats from running in the class.

it doesn't to be honest.. we looked into changing it to outlaw sprint boats but, the only class's it would screw over is N2 and P offshore.. Sure there are some boat that would fly but, like 2 or 3.. You would have to go to a 29+ boat to get by the rule.. I can't think of to many people that would want to do that for n2 but, I know in P you can but, most don't..

Not to mention the way to do it is by freeboard and then it would take out sprint boats but, also Titans and if you change it to make titan's legal then some sprint boats would be legal.. so you see the problem.

so in the end it came down to making the boats look offshore and not just a boat with a windsheild

plus you have people that do not like the idea they can't run tunnel hulls and sprint cats in offshore.. so maybe we should just change it to enduro and drop the offshore

 

[Jeff Shriver]

so maybe we should just change it to enduro and drop the offshore

My personal interest in offshore stems from going 4 minutes with a course with a left turn. I could care less how the boats look.

 

[crowebar]

You know Dick I can't say what the thought process was.  I do know when I look at the rules (here we go :blink: ) the class is called offshore which brings a picture to mind of what an offshore boat is.  The same thing holds true for sport hydros.  Now, there's that wacky wording that says "may resemble", what the hell does that mean?  It means if it doesn't "resemble" a real offshore boat it's okay too. 

Paul, I agree with you all the way. When Dennis and the Florida Gang introduced Offshore in 1999 at the nats we all had offshore boats as you would come to think of them. After the rules were wrote the class went a different direction which was more "how the race was run" then "what the boats were supposed to be". Do you think I wanted to sell my big 30+ inch Maus Cat? No, but I wanted to compete in the class so I put a boat together that would.

There's the problem.  If the only thing I wanted to do was win a race (not to say that isn't a goal) I know exactly the boats I would pick to do the job. 

Paul, my goal wasn't to "just win a race" while I do like to win, I was building a boat as the rules dictated per the direction of the class as the person who wrote the rules (Doug Twaits Sr.) specified. I spoke to him directly and it was his contention that offshore should follow the successful nitro pattern, not what we had run at the nats. At the time he had some great points and in many cases it did make it a better class. In fact when we ran in Florida it was a 5 lap race but we still had to make 2 left turns.

None of them are offshore boats.  I like to take the hobby as a whole, my boats need to be fast but they also HAVE to fit where their placed and look the part.  There's a fine line here between insulting someone and voicing my opinion so please don't take what I'm saying as a slam.  It's just that offshore should be just that and not a 4 minute sprint race just like sport hydro should be emulating their full size counterparts.

I agree with you Paul. But the offshore you describe is the one that "you" believe to be the correct one, unfortunatly you are mistaken. I used to race nitro, I even competed in one offshore event with my 3.5 DPI Tunnel. I also saw many run and I'm not sure any would have fit your description. I appreciate your opinion and line up on your side of the fence that "offshore should be just that and not a 4 minute sprint race". Unfortunatly that wasn't the case, even if you would like to believe it was. The good news is just about everyone else agrees with you (including me) and we now have a new set of rules that at the very least points the intent in the direction we all think it should be.

I may not run offshore this year because my boat may not meet that definition (the one I voted for). While I did make it specifically for offshore and never have raced it in a sprint race it may be too close to that line. It's a glass version of the electro vee. I'll let you decide. If you think it shouldn't race I will gladly withdraw with not so much as a wimper.

Dick

 

[Paul Pachmayer]

Hi Dick,

I would think anything you bring will work for offshore. I won't protest any boats in the offshore class because really just about anything goes, even with the new rules. And I'm sure your right about how offshore started, now it's way different from our nitro brothers way of running it. As far as DT Sr. goes, wasn't it he who said an Eco boat looked offshore to him? :blink: lol.

Paul.

 

[crowebar]

Hi Dick,
I would think anything you bring will work for offshore.  I won't protest any boats in the offshore class because really just about anything goes, even with the new rules.  And I'm sure your right about how offshore started, now it's way different from our nitro brothers way of running it.  As far as DT Sr. goes, wasn't it he who said an Eco boat looked offshore to him? :blink: lol.

Paul.

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Hi Paul,

I know many of us were a little dissapointed in the change of rule from what "we" thought was offshore. However, the format was what Doug Sr. was focused on and at the time it was the right way to go. Nobody other then a small handfull of people even had "offshore" boats. I believe the rules as they existed allowed us to "develop" offshore into what we are voting on today.

Honestly, If I had the time to build a new offshore boat (as you and I know an offshore should be) I'd do it. This year I'm running everything I ran last year. My family is at that place where my hobby needs to be an afterthought for a while.

I'll bring what I have. While the boat isn't a "pure bread" offshore, I really tried my best to make it one. If it's not close enough I'll park it and spend that time hanging out! I think I'll still have plenty of boats to keep me busy!

Thanks,

Dick

 

[Paul Pachmayer]

Hey Dick,

At least in offshore we don't have the griping going on like the sport hydro gig. I can blame Dennis for the offshore thing, if it wasn't for him letting me run his S boat I wouldn't have been hooked. Now I find running offshore a blast, 4 minutes of some heavy (and fast) racing. I think I've been lucky enough to place in one offshore event and I've raced a bunch of them but I still have a great time. Usually I'll be thrilled to go the whole 4 minutes without flipping it, lol.

BTW: What OS classes where you signed up for?

Paul.

 

[AlanN]

Paully Boy,

Don't forget the great CAFE venue...definitley slated for late Sept/ earlyOctober this year. If you have any friends you can bring them too.

Gonna try to get a T and S hull runnin this year.....don't forget the lipos.

 

[Kevin Whitehead]

What's going on here? Is this one of those thread "hijackings" ?

Darned Offshore pirates!

KW

 

[Al Waters]

I dont really have an answer as you guys will know what is best in FE. At the Nitro Nats, as years went by, the Offshore and Deep Vee Enduros turned into the DeepVee/Offshore class. It was because of participation or lack of. For many years Dumas was the sponsor of all of the classes. The Prather Deep Vee was really the only Dep Vee and Gary Johnson (god bless the man) was just about the only the boater with a true Offshore boat. And there was one in Colorado.........

The class was combined running Cats with monos. The Cats would get the late start because they had cowls with drivers. The monos were not as fast on the course so it kind of balanced.

Things may have since changed on the Cats having cowls. Dont hold me to that one please.

The Deep Vees evolved from the Prather Deep Vees to the sleeker TwinCraft, CalCraft, and Seaducer monos.

Now the class has become whatever boats show up as heat racing is the big thing.

Al Waters

NAMBA Vice President

NAMBA Scale Unlimited Chairman

 

[AlanN]

What's going on here? Is this one of those thread "hijackings" ?

Darned Offshore pirates!

KW

Well someone had to turn this argument into a good thread.

And "POOF!" there you have it welcome to the Land of OZ Mr. Whitehead.

Personally I don't really care if a hull doesn't fit the bill when it comes to the "offshore" looks. As Jeff stated...4 minutes and left handers.

CAFE's roots are running enduro style. We used to run 3 min with the only class specs being moderated by motor and cells...riggers cats and monos used to duke it out. Of course only Howie and I remember those days...oops Jim and Steve too.