Spec FE boat racing..

[Grimracer]

OK Eric. got ya.. reading with an open mind.... but Im realy not defending the controler. It sells itself and it does it very well.. just giving you the facts about the unit.

Grim

 

[DPeterson]

Grim - Hope you are getting a better view of the landscape. My view is getting cloudy.

Concerning the esc's it has already been determined Nationally and by a large contingent of racers that we wish to utilize existing already owned and dependable esc's. The timing ability is a plus. However in my travels and as evidenced by others it has been determined that a timeable esc is not showing a distinct advantage in winning races or keeping others from entering the hobby. Maybe at this years NAMBA Nats we can document the equipment used in the spec classes and get some hard data. I will try not to win them all with my esc's. LOL

If the consensus among racers is to have parity, spec the prop. In my wiew there are only a few racers that know how to work a prop and there are a lot of us who really don't even want to hassle with prop work. And if the intent of the spec class is for beginners then the prop absolutely needs to be speced. Furthermore by specing the prop there will be less pressure on esc's of lesser character.

Want more parity? Spec the Hull, spec the cells and spec the connectors. Wait - I think now we just entered the "Production/stock" class.

There needs to be a certain amount of freedom and individuality with these spec classes or there will be lost interest by more seasoned racers. As stated before it really is not a beginner class. It is a motor control class.

Doug

 

[P THOMAS]

I agree with what Reesor said.... stock and spec are not beginners classes at the national level, but they can work well at the local level. I'm all for open ESC's because it provides an extra tuning factor which can help to overcome the expense and/or labor of extreme prop work.

??? What, so then you get beat up by the guys that can do prop work. You better learn props and setups first.

I like the idea of the spec cause i dont have a clue yet what works together.

Saw the last post Spec prop? I would think not good idea. part of the setup is the prop, tweeks you cant see make a difference sometimes

 

[Mike Luszcz]

My head is hurting at this point, lol. I am just wondering what the outcome of this survey will try and lead to. Are there some big things or changes coming Grim, and this is to help get user info to support a theory? Mike

 

[Doug Smock]

Just want to make sure we don't loose sight of the difference between a beginner, and a new to FE guy.

The majority of the growth in the spec or limited racing has not been the beginner from what we've seen. B)

Doug

 

[D. Newland]

...

There needs to be a certain amount of freedom and individuality with these spec classes or there will be lost interest by more seasoned racers. As stated before it really is not a beginner class. It is a motor control class.

Doug

I think that's the balance we've tried to create, or it was created without our knowing...whatever the reason, it's working. It's something that the top drivers in the country like to run, and also has an affordability factor to help new guys...and crossovers!. They benefit from getting a reliable setup and can race deck to deck with dang near everybody in FE.

And, I can see a time where P-Limited actually eclipses (and dissolves) N-2 racing. That also plays into my opinion of only having a motor spec. Now, if I can talk Obama into doing a "Cash for N-2's" program where every N-2 boat gets $500, N-2 would probably drop off in 60-90 days...

Just a joke...I'm not wanting N-2 to go away anytime soon as it's still a very viable class, but I do feel P-Limited will take center stage on the FE racing scene...well, it already has, and if enough FE drivers want to continue consolidating our Power Parameters to a more realistic level, this is going to be the next area to place our focus.

 

[Doug Smock]

And, I can see a time where P-Limited actually eclipses (and dissolves) N-2 racing. That also plays into my opinion of only having a motor spec. Now, if I can talk Obama into doing a "Cash for N-2's" program where every N-2 boat gets $500, N-2 would probably drop off in 60-90 days...

I agree.

Let me know if ya need help with Obama. :lol:

 

[Mike Luszcz]

I think why the whole question even comes up, is people just want to go faster and faster! Its just an innocent obsession we all have!

 

[SeanKewley]

The confusion does come from what is a “production/RTR” class, and what is a “Spec” class.

When I think of RTR/Production class, that to me means off the shelf boats that require the use of OEM equipment.

When I think of “Spec” classes, that to me means a limited number of motor options and a voltage limit. IMHO ESCs shouldn’t play a role in spec classes.

RTR/production boats like the UL-1 can also run in spec classes like LSH and be very competitive. My UL-1 took 1st place in LSH last year at the Mazo races against a wide variety of hulls and well known racers. It doesn’t matter what hull, ESC, or prop you run if you don’t drive it well and finish the race.

Back to Grim's original question.... What is the intent of Spec class racing?

My $.02.... It is the next step after RTR/production class racing, and still provides affordable competition.

 

[Patrick M]

??? What, so then you get beat up by the guys that can do prop work. You better learn props and setups first.

LOL, Phil......

not an issue on my part..... the point is that variable timing can help some newbies get closer to racing speed at a local level. Obviously, when running against a group of seasoned prop tweakers the newb is going to have a tough time, but in a mixed field variable timing can make a difference. To oversimplify the situation, the ESC/motor combo can be somewhat tuned to fit the characteristics of the prop and other setup factors, rather than the prop needing to be tuned to the fixed timing setup.

 

[Mike Hughes]

If the consensus among racers is to have parity, spec the prop. In my wiew there are only a few racers that know how to work a prop and there are a lot of us who really don't even want to hassle with prop work. And if the intent of the spec class is for beginners then the prop absolutely needs to be speced. Furthermore by specing the prop there will be less pressure on esc's of lesser character.

Doug

If you spec the prop, the prop guys are still going to work on it. They will get as much out of it as they can and say, " Look I am running the prop you choose.". You will jsut be limiting the size and shape. I highly doubt that there is any one prop that is good across the board for the many styles of boats. So the load may be even more on the controller because you got the wrong prop on a particular boat. You can spec all you want. The fast guys are still going to be fast. They just work on all aspecs of the boat to get to that speed. You can not spec setup!!!!!!

Mike

 

[TRUCKPULL]

A Spec prop will not work.

We have three motors with different KV's

Lets look at a Mono in Spec class.

A Ul-1 motor requires a smaller Dia. prop then a SV-27 or BJ motor.

If you spec a prop for a BJ motor, then it will become a 1 Hull class ( whatever hull works best for that Motor and prop)

The way it is now is best, A person can pick the hull they want to run.

Then choose what motor and prop is best for that hull and the way they drive.

ESC should left open.

If a person has a hull they want to run, this particular hull likes a X440mm prop at say 26000 RPM

With a ESC with adjustable timing you can tune your RPM.

If you were restricted to a stock ESC with 10 degrees timing,

You would be LOW on your 26000 RPM

Now you would have to run a larger Dia. Prop to compensate,

Now you hull is ill handling because it dose not like a larger prop then a 40mm.

ESC should be left open to allow more flexibility in hulls to be run.

The way I see it is a stock SV-27 ESC is for a SV-27 Hull.

You need some adjustment for say a DF-29 with a SV-27 motor

Larry

 

[DPeterson]

To be clear I am not advocating to spec props. I was simply making a point about parity that was stated by others. In order to acheive reasonable parity the entire boat would have to be speced. Then of course we enter the stock/production type class. I don't think anybody wants that.

My position stands to spec motor only.

And as Mike Hughes stated the fast guys will still be fast no matter the rules.

See you at the races.

Doug

 

[Doug Smock]

Grim Racer what we need is a affordable ( say $60.00)120 amp. speed control that will last through several toasted 50 to 60 amp motors. One that has two sets of dip switches. One set to adjust timing from 0 to 25 degrees or so. The other switch is a mode switch. "PT/ NPT" (Prop Tweaker / Non Prop Tweaker) The PTs must run 0 degrees timing.Then we just need someone to tech the winning boats after a heat to make sure the tweakers aren't cheating and WHALA!!!!!!!! The playing field is level again!!! :lol:

Just having fun guys. I think you should have it that way at National events if that's what the majority wants. B)

Still in the minority (here)!

Let's go race some boats!!!!!!!!!!

All the best!

Doug

 

[Chilli]

Let's go race some boats!!!!!!!!!!

Doug

Well said!!!

 

[TERRY COWGER]

I don't post here much but this thread is interesting to me.

My son and I run SV and UL spec. boats including rigger and LSH, the reason we run these classes is to keep the cost down.

To me what you do by allowing the "better adjustable" esc's is up the price of competing, if you want a better ESC then make it of the type that doesn't have adjustable timing. (Now you are wasting your money because there is no advantage to be had.)

Should I have to spent 120.00 ea. for an ESC with adj. timing to keep up when there is nothing wrong with the 60.00 ESC's that are made to be run with these spec. motors.

You have a very respectable racer who said he has done testing with the adj. ESC's and stated there is a clear advantage to using one.

What that tells me is that if ya don't have it, you wont keep up.

I read somewhere that Grim was an x slot car racer..........Grim remember what happened to all the "stock" classes ?

Same thing here the price of racing goes up and it keeps the regular racers out of big races like the Nats.

Why does it always turn into the most money thing, why cant it be the better hull design, better set up,better prop work, ect.........?

JMHO T.C.

 

[Rod Sanata]

Lets here what you guys have to say about what the intent of Spec class racing is or means.

ROCK IT

Grim

It's fun. We have a good group of P specers in our little club. Pretty equal speeds makes for good racing. Now to figure out how to finish races!

P.S. since we are doing a little bench racing....I'm pretty sure I have the fastest P spec boat in the WORLD . I hope you all get to come on down to Colorado in August so I can prove it!

I hope to be there!

Grim

WE hope you can make it, so mark your calender for August 18-21 for a Trip to Colorado!

 

[Mike Luszcz]

I don't post here much but this thread is interesting to me.

My son and I run SV and UL spec. boats including rigger and LSH, the reason we run these classes is to keep the cost down.

To me what you do by allowing the "better adjustable" esc's is up the price of competing, if you want a better ESC then make it of the type that doesn't have adjustable timing. (Now you are wasting your money because there is no advantage to be had.)

Should I have to spent 120.00 ea. for an ESC with adj. timing to keep up when there is nothing wrong with the 60.00 ESC's that are made to be run with these spec. motors.

You have a very respectable racer who said he has done testing with the adj. ESC's and stated there is a clear advantage to using one.

What that tells me is that if ya don't have it, you wont keep up.

I read somewhere that Grim was an x slot car racer..........Grim remember what happened to all the "stock" classes ?

Same thing here the price of racing goes up and it keeps the regular racers out of big races like the Nats.

Why does it always turn into the most money thing, why cant it be the better hull design, better set up,better prop work, ect.........?

JMHO T.C.

Terry, The turnigy 120a and the Aquastar 120a controllers are only $49.99 and $56.99 respectively at hobbycity.com when you log in. Those are far superior to the 60a UL-1 controller, which if I remember correctly has "made in china" written on it, and is $80 or so. Doesn't matter to me tho, I am getting plenty of speed out of the UL-1 motor and controller in my p-spec tunnel setups and everything comes back very cool.

 

[Grimracer]

Buying another speed control (because ya can) is like buying a compact car or motorcycle just to save money on gas.

By the time you add up the cost to buy and keep the thing your dollars behind.

A GUY COULD GO BROKE SAVING SO MUCH MONEY! (An old slot car racing sponsership saying) hahah

(not quite the same but you get the point).. now.. IF" I (you?) want to have a better chance of winning at the nats this summer Im going to need to update my 5 boats with new controllers.. and the savings are?..................

do you think Im the only one that feels they might (or must to some) update there fleet to be competitive?

Truth is I have no intention of updating my fleet.. I will then loose as expected.. that is unless im a PT.

Love that post Doug!.. hahah

ROCKET AND ROLL.. lets RACE!

Grim

 

[D. Newland]

...You have a very respectable racer who said he has done testing with the adj. ESC's and stated there is a clear advantage to using one.

What that tells me is that if ya don't have it, you wont keep up.

..

Terry-thanks for jumping in!

Brian's at the top of FE. Nobody can keep up w/him and I've seen him run motors with Kapton Tape only! He's given more speed secrets to FE racers during the past 4 years than anyone else...probably combined!

I always pay attention when he has something to say. But there's other bits of information out there that are worth knowing, too.

For instance, the 2010 NAMBA FE Nat's has been advertised for 6 months now, and they are not spec'ing an ESC. The 2009 NAMBA FE Nats in Michigan was back in September, and they didn't spec ESC's, either. The Az Winter Warmups for '09 and '10 (small race, but it's mine and Pat McDonald's club, so we pay attention to stuff like this) didn't spec an ESC (with the exception of OPC tunnel in '09 as we asked racers to power their OPC's with SV motors and matching ESC's).

Here's my point: Many of you know how FE is when it comes to forum banter, drama, opinions, hot-headedness, lines drawn in the sand, etc, etc, but there hasn't been 1 post specifically relating to any of these events about the Host Clubs decision to not spec an ESC. Not one. Nobody saying after the race that it was an unfair advantage, nobody saying they feel they wish they had one because they would have placed better, nobody feeling they are required to spend more money to compete. And a lot of new racers race P-Limited classes at these events.

I take all of that as sprint racing fact.

Also, higher timing doesn't mean higher speed. It just doesn't work that way, as evidenced by Eric's post #54. It's hull/motor/prop specific.

FWIW, I haven't moved any of my Caste ESC's timing off of "low" for probably 4 years. I got that tip from Brian! It's an old opinion, but it's working for me. I actually don't like timing as it relates to tuning a boat. With the exception of the D wind Neu motors, I honestly feel that 98% of the FE racers spend way too much time messing with and talking/posting about timing when there are better things they can be learning about tuning and driving. With that said, I also feel it's just not a big deal when it comes to raceday, so I like racers to have the freedom to do what they want in that regard. I like them happy. Afterall, it's a hobby.

If anyone that is attending the NAMBA '10 Nat's, or attended the NAMBA '09 Nat's that does feel specing the ESC would have helped even out the P-Limited racing and/or increased class participation, give us your thoughts, please! Now's the time.

One more. I mentioned ESC's collecting dust for seasoned FE guys as being 1 reason for not spec'ing an ESC, and I see the argument to this. It then gives the newbie a sense of anxiety that they may have to up their ESC to compete. I don't buy this, but for the sake of argument, I've got another thing to consider:

What is the next logical step for the newbie after a spec boat? Something that maybe, just maybe a Castle 120 or other after market ESC's may power?? Pat and I are seeing this right now in our club with all 3 of our new members. They've got the P-Limited stuff down (P-Limited Offshore, Sport Hydro and OPC), and now they are figuring out how to smartly increase their racing fleet for the 2010 FE Nat's. What if my club had a spec'd ESC rule in place for them??