Spec FE boat racing..

[Grimracer]

Based on what David has said..

Whats the difference between spec and other.. Just the motor?

Why would the organization (either) want to hold rules that the racers are not using or bringing down from the mountains so to speak… so records can be established is typically why.. not many care..

If this is they way it goes then OK.. I get it… BUT… I can say that again, and again, and again people will be asking about.. well.. lets call it Shelf FE racing..

I know they want and are going to want to race boats they BUY OFF THE SHELF... it will come up again.

We see it now, then when we/boaters try to help them… they learn what they have bought is not fitting into what they aspire to do... race.... they are bummed and take up knitting..

Nasty circle eh!

ROCKET AND ROLL

Grim

 

[D. Newland]

Based on what David has said..

Whats the difference between spec and other.. Just the motor?

Why would the organization (either) want to hold rules that the racers are not using or bringing down from the mountains so to speak… so records can be established is typically why.. not many care..

Grim-Can you elaborate on this? I'm not following completely. And, yes. The only difference between what NAMBA events have been running as Spec/P-Limited classes over P is just the motor, with the exception of the '09 NAMBA Gas Nat's where P-Spec rigger required a spec'd ESC.

If this is they way it goes then OK.. I get it… BUT… I can say that again, and again, and again people will be asking about.. well.. lets call it Shelf FE racing..

I know they want and are going to want to race boats they BUY OFF THE SHELF... it will come up again.

We see it now, then when we/boaters try to help them… they learn what they have bought is not fitting into what they aspire to do... race.... they are bummed and take up knitting..

Nasty circle eh!

ROCKET AND ROLL

Grim

IMO, it's the local clubs that have the flexibility to have a successful Off The Shelf racing class. Also, if said local club holds a Nat's, they are perfectly fine running their special Club Class at that event. Also, if a neighboring club holds the Nat's and know they can field an Off The Shelf Class, they can also offer it. The NAMBA National Event Rules allow this.

I can't see going through the NAMBA proposal motions to specifically recognize an Off The Shelf Class based on how fast things change in FE and the FE marketplace. It's better left to the local clubs IMO. And, most off the shelf purchases do fit into a racing class. We can discuss how competitive it may be, etc, but it typically will fit somewhere...and we shouldn't expect the rulebook to change anytime something new hits the market.

Lastly-Anyone that feels this is the way to go can write it up. The buck doesn't stop with me...or anyone for that matter.

 

[Grimracer]

David,

I know there is no easy answer..

you have said it best by saying..

" I can't see going through the NAMBA proposal motions to specifically recognize an Off The Shelf Class based on how fast things change in FE and the FE marketplace "

and boy o boy do I understand.... the hardest deal to grasp is how fast FE changes..

It really makes it hard to design for your needs.. its hard to stop this and maybe impossible BUT some MFGs.. or at least one I know of IS trying to read, understand and then design to the criteria in hopes more people become RC boat racers.. not just buyers..

Just trying to be dead honest here.

David.. just a true statement about the records. Orgs and or driven people hold on to old classes as well as vote in new ones JUST to get names in record books.. its like IMPBA C class.. ya cant take it away from the dudes that yanked out the records but truly how does that benefit the org as a whole?.. does that really bring in more boaters? Does it have to…na.. but in this day and age of change it might be good to “lean up” the org so a better focus can be brought forth.

To those reading.. let me know if you want me to shut up..maybe we don’t care about bringing in new racers as much as I feel we should or could. Cripes I have been at this way to long to start making asmptions. :blink:

I have seen more then one time that somebody is upset that the ORG is not listening when they don’t vote in or host “official records” for the boats they might be racing. Its always self motivated.

Hell.. maybe that’s all records are. I don’t know its not by bag and really not fare for me to say.

ROCKET AND ROLL and thanks for all the input!

Grimracer

 

[DPeterson]

Hey Grim

Please take the following as constructive feedback.

My take on the Spec classes is that they are a step up from "Off the shelf" and a step or two below open classes.

IMO "Off the shelf" boats should be targeted for the "Production Classes". Our Wisconsin race this year will have a "Production class". Supervee. And the NAMBA Nationals this year has a "Production Class". Not sure what it is yet.

If the "Off the shelf" boat fits the rules of the Spec classes and the quality of the "Off the shelf" boat holds up then great. It can then can compete in the Spec classes.

Now for the part you may not want to read. - The Supervee did a very good job on getting more boaters to the pond. However IMO it is an ill handling mono, came with a radio that malfunctioned to the point of having run away boats and if the bow was designed a little differently it could have self righted itself. Can you imagine a youngster or any newbe buying this boat, taking it out of for the first run, flipping it, then wonder how in the hell they are going to retrieve it. Not much fun here.

Now for the ULI. - Our club bought 5 of these last year. Even bought one myself. Everyone pretty much had to beef it up so it would take the usual beating around the course. At the end of our season last year there is none left. All of them pretty much disingrated. And I am talking about guy's that are not hard core racers.

For what its worth. - Build "Production class" boats that fit Spec rules. Build them better. Instead of price pointing $250 - $300.00, go for $350 - $400.00 or more. Build a boat that will last in the Spec classes. Off road trucks and cars are way more. And make a new Mono that will self right utilizing bow shape and cog weight distribution. For the kids!

Because of the UL1 and Supervee issues we as a club can not recommend them to new guy's that inquire. We would like to but can't. Help us out here.

Doug

 

[Grimracer]

Doug,

Very good feedback..

Maybe the confusion comes from what is a production class and what is a Spec class/boat.

Very good banter here..

Im not going to defend the boats we have produce. Its the best we could do at that time.. regarding how fast things change..

The UL-1 hull was never designed for lipos.. it was never designed to go 50 MPH either. BUT.. as the technology changed we had to change mid stream.. Tooling was done… it was go or no go time. The boat has sold and sold very well..

We have learned a ton about what FE boaters want and need.. Show we anther main stream company that offers new boats with tape on hatches? Not many if any.

SV…Ill handling?.. O YEA..(I did not design that hull but did to the rest, no harm done) not sure that makes it a bad boat for a specific class.. if the class is allowed to stay that way.. The class is still strong and working with some of the larger clubs. As you might or might not know the boat is getting updated and re-released (Shhhhh you did not here that from me). Maybe its time to re-look at the class?

Price point is VERY tricky in this game.. But all of that is going to change soon enough… soon enough man.

ROCK and ROLL.. looks like Production is the word I needed to hear!

Grim

What constitutes production? The production of one.. or.. maybe 1000? We need to call it Mass Production.. cus in come the rule mongers and the one off Production boats

 

[Doug Smock]

Where can I guy go to get a look at the "Spec" class rule proposal?

Thanks,

Doug

NAMBA's? Greeley, Colorado on Thursday, August 19th. My pit table at 6:00. Bring a cooler. It's still a work in progress, but as it relates to the P-Limited Power Parameter, it's a done deal. I've done enough racing, research and talked to enough racers across the country to firmly say that. See the Rumrunner thread last week for more information as it relates to the P-Limited Power Parameter.

Keep in mind that the National Rules are really there for National events. I understand that the book is used as a reference for local clubs, but they have always had the freedom to change anything they feel necessary to foster/grow their club.

Thanks David

 

[Doug Smock]

Doug,

If the motor timing is making a big difference like Brain Buaas stated above, then I understand limiting controllers. I personally had no idea that helped so much. My 28" Woodstuff is already pulling away from the nitro tunnels as it is, so I doubt they would like to see me go any faster. I would just like to know what the real rules in IMPBA are about ESC's when mixing nitro and FE boats in the same class. Mike

Mike these are the rules you are running under I believe. Chili worked hard with the Dist 12 members to get some FEs running.

http://www.intlwaters.com/index.php?showtopic=38586

Doug

Sorry for the OT Mike Z.

 

[PropNut]

Bill,

The rules everyone in the country have been running for three years were developed in the Puget Sound club. You can find them here:

http://psfastelectrics5.tripod.com/

All the best,

Ray

 

[Dick Loeb]

Where would one go to find out what motors, ecs's and batteries are needed to build one of these boats? Specifically OB.

~Bill

Bill, the P SPEC rules where the ones posted for the WTC all parts are low end stuff Aquacraft 60 amp and a UL1 motor I have had no problems with over heating etc and run more than enough laps,and my stuff runs pretty good. Have a good day, Dick Loeb

 

[Dick Loeb]

Where would one go to find out what motors, ecs's and batteries are needed to build one of these boats? Specifically OB.

~Bill

Bill, The P Spec rules are the ones for the WTC, low end Aquacraft 60 amp controller and UL1 motor. I have had no over heating problems with eihter component. My stuff runs pretty good. If I can help PM me and we can talk. Have a good day. Dick Loeb

 

[Chilli]

Mike these are the rules you are running under I believe. Chili worked hard with the Dist 12 members to get some FEs running.

http://www.intlwater...showtopic=38586

Doug

The first post on the thread that Doug referenced is the final draft of the trial rules that I submitted to Don after the D12 meeting. There are no IMPBA rules for nitro/FE combined classes or for spec/limited classes running the UL1/SV27/BJ26 motors. These are district and club rules. Don and the district were nice enough to let us get out foot in the door. And even though we are not the first to do this, I know there are people out there who are watching us closely to see how it goes. Unfortunately, the rules posted by Don in the March 2010 IMPBA Roostertail were not the final draft and they do not include the rules on speed controllers. At the D12 meeting Dick L and James B stongly lobbied for spec controllers to align our district rules with the WTC rules. So I included that in the final draft. As far as D12 goes, this is the rules we're running this year. One side note: Not all clubs were represented at the district meeting. I've tried my best to get the word out sending PM's, emails and posting on most boating forums. Don't be surprised if host clubs and CD's are not familiar with the new trial rules. My hope is that dispite this, everything goes smoothly.

See you at the races!!

 

[Patrick M]

Due to contractual obligation, running a SniperII is not going to be possible as I am now a driver for Ron and team Lynx. (Plug here, Race one or chase one!) What brand etc, 4s1p batt. do you recommend?

~Bill

Bill here's some pics of my Lynx FE mod... works great when buoys don't get in the way, even in high wind. Would have whooped on Newland if it hadn't been for some first race issues. I'm using a sealed Thunder Power 4200 mah 40C car pack because of the exposure.

 

[SReesor]

My opinion...the intent...

1.) Affordable

2.) Readily available specified motors

3.) Fun speeds and great competition

4.) Challenging: boat set-up and prop work required

Spec and in the past (stock) are not entry level classes. To make one really sing requires considerable skill. The Spec classes help relatively new racers to develop their skiils on working props, and setting up their boats to attain maximum performance. These skiils will go with them to open class racing.

Opening up the Esc's IMO is not necessary. The cost of 'stock' Esc's is not that high that everyone can't use one.

Steve

 

[Eric Bourlet]

I did some motor/esc/timing/switching rate testing this weekend. I've got a stack of ESCs floating around the shop. I tested the UL-1, SeaKing, CC Hydra, Schulze.

There was far more advantage with the adjustable ESCs than I thought. I'd been running the UL-1 ESC in my spec class boats and not losing many heats. I didn't realise how much I was giving up to the guys running adjustable ESCs. I'm not going to give up a double digit rpm percentage just to run the UL-1 ESC. The SeaKing is good, the Hydra is better, the Schulze wasn't happy at all.

So I put the Hydra 120 in my Spec rigger, cranked the timing up and went testing. The boat was quick before, it's fast now. In marginal conditions it now exits the corner at 59mph and enters at 66mph and that's not running the big prop.

All else being equal, if the ESCs are left open there's an advantage to adjustable timing. Of the ESCs I've tested, I got the most out of the Hydra and it wasn't a small margin. So much for cheap ESC's for spec.

I'd rather see the ESCs spec'd for these classes, but I also know I'm in the minority on this.

Brian, where did you end up with timing? I ran mine up from 11 deg. when you saw it back to the default 15.75 deg the 120 Turnigy comes at and noticed a nice change. Then I went to 18.75 Deg and it fell way off in the corners but pulled further down the straits, but at too much of a cost in current and heat.

The other thing with the controller is if you force a guy into too small selection then when there is a bad batch like there was of the UL1 controllers about the time I had to order a controller it makes it hard to build boats. I can see a maximum dollar figure like ROAR has on motors being a good compromise.

 

[Patrick M]

I agree with what Reesor said.... stock and spec are not beginners classes at the national level, but they can work well at the local level. I'm all for open ESC's because it provides an extra tuning factor which can help to overcome the expense and/or labor of extreme prop work.

 

[Eric Bourlet]

Due to contractual obligation, running a SniperII is not going to be possible as I am now a driver for Ron and team Lynx. (Plug here, Race one or chase one!) What brand etc, 4s1p batt. do you recommend?

~Bill

Bill here's some pics of my Lynx FE mod... works great when buoys don't get in the way, even in high wind. Would have whooped on Newland if it hadn't been for some first race issues. I'm using a sealed Thunder Power 4200 mah 40C car pack because of the exposure.

How did you water proof the area that you put the servo and speed controller? I have 2 Lynx and have helped set up many for nitro and I have never seen one that did not get water into that area when running. Did you build a box inside the fuel tank area that separates it from the rest of the hull?

 

[Grimracer]

Eric,

To clear up.

There was not A bad batch of UL-1 controllers. All the controllers to the date we put a larger CAP on them were all the same.. YES the cap proved to be too small for the props guys were running.

I have popped a cap but have yet to burn up a controller and my spec hydro is also pushing 60mph.

My UL-1 47mph

My Cat 43mph

My Tunnel 45mph (2009 World Champ)

All good racing and all on the UL-1 controller.

I think Steve nailed it… Thanks Steve!

Grim

 

[raptor347]

Brian, where did you end up with timing? I ran mine up from 11 deg. when you saw it back to the default 15.75 deg the 120 Turnigy comes at and noticed a nice change. Then I went to 18.75 Deg and it fell way off in the corners but pulled further down the straits, but at too much of a cost in current and heat.

The other thing with the controller is if you force a guy into too small selection then when there is a bad batch like there was of the UL1 controllers about the time I had to order a controller it makes it hard to build boats. I can see a maximum dollar figure like ROAR has on motors being a good compromise.

Funny about that. The rigger likes 20 degrees, but the tunnel doesn't like anything over 14. Different props and boats.

Don't get me wrong, from a tuning standpoint I'd much rather run an adjustable ESC. There is just a little less parity if the ESCs are left open.

 

[Patrick M]

How did you water proof the area that you put the servo and speed controller? I have 2 Lynx and have helped set up many for nitro and I have never seen one that did not get water into that area when running. Did you build a box inside the fuel tank area that separates it from the rest of the hull?

Replaced the transom with a piece of 1/4" ply and sealed the aft area with vinyl ester and cloth. No leakage problems with the rest of the shoebox hull joint. Added a basswood cap to the top area of the fuel tank well and used an .030 silicone sheet gasket on the top plate. No box necessary.

 

[Eric Bourlet]

Eric,

To clear up.

There was not A bad batch of UL-1 controllers. All the controllers to the date we put a larger CAP on them were all the same.. YES the cap proved to be too small for the props guys were running.

I have popped a cap but have yet to burn up a controller and my spec hydro is also pushing 60mph.

My UL-1 47mph

My Cat 43mph

My Tunnel 45mph (2009 World Champ)

All good racing and all on the UL-1 controller.

I think Steve nailed it… Thanks Steve!

Grim

I know you have to defend your product Mike. If they blow caps and the fix is larger caps then in my book as an electronics tech you had a bad batch and came up with a fix. Your company is to be commended for dealing with a problem when it was identified, so many these days would have just left them as is. I know that for what they are designed ,the boats and props they shipped with, they have been good controllers. I have not owned one yet but have seen one Nationally recognized driver that runs here local not finish many heats because of small cap controller failures. It was during that time frame that I had to order a controller and based my decision on personal observations of the old small cap controllers failing at races. I can not say if all he had to do was replace the caps and the controllers worked again, but I can say for sure there were several heats that he was not able to score more than 25 points because of the small caps , and that cost him races. While it would be great for Great Plains to have the UL1 speed controller one of the few available for the class I do not think it would be good for the hobby to limit the choices to a specific few. If we want to keep big dollar controllers out then place a a dollar figure on them. Either way I think the P Spec class will expand those that race electric boats.