Remote Needle Valves

[Pete Markese]

I am setting up my first real outrigger, and I was thinking about running a remote needle valve in it. I think I understand why this would be an advantage as you can adjust the fuel mixture on the fly, but I am not sure of how to actually set one up.

Who's the remote needle valve expert out there? Whoever you are, can you help a newbie with some insight into HOW to correctly install a remote needle set-up? Are there good ones and bad ones? What are the little tricks that you've learned that can save me hours of frustration? Are there any illustrations/drawings/documents on the "How To's" that I can reference somewhere? Etc., etc., etc.

Looking for help.......

 

[nitrotwin]

Try Don Ferrette he is the guy to talk to he is around here somewhere JWB

 

[Ron Olson]

Pete, I've only set up 2 of them, both the Kalistratov/CMD needles. Mount them as close as possible to the carb. The Aeromarine antenna bracket is a perfect fit for them otherwise one is easy to make.

A good transmitter is also a key to getting the most out of one, you want a TX that will move the servo quickly.

 

[jetpack]

First let me say that an onboard mixture control now allows me to be 20 times more efficient at my pond testing. I can test props, pipes, and all sorts of things without having to re-set the mixture each time I make a change. Before, I had to reset the needle sometimes 5 times to get it perfect.

Now, I can just launch, bring the needle to a super rich setting and then dial in the correct mixture in a lap or so. Specifically, here is how I use the Mixture control:

Some boats require a fairly lean setting to launch that big prop. OK, then I set the mixture control slightly lean, which will allow me to get the boat up quickly with that big prop. Many more times it is easier to get that big prop up with a setting that is a little more on the rich side of the needle. Just as soon as the boat is up on pipe, I immediately return the mixture control to a super rich setting ( the engine will not even be in a clean two cycle).

I then gradually move the mixture control knob leaner and leaner until the engine just starts to clean out. At that setting, you will make MAXIMUM POWER. It does not seem possible that the engine should be on the rich side of the needle to make maximum power, but ALL our testing has shown that to be true.

At the start of the race, you may want to go a couple clicks leaner so that you will get instant response when you cross the starting line. BUT, just as soon as you get around the first turn, richen the mixture the two clicks that you leaned in, and leave it that way for the rest of the race. If you find that you are either in control of the race or behind by an insurmountable margin, you may want to richen even a couple more clicks. This is the safest way to finish the race.

If you will use this method to set your mixture control, you will ALWAYS have a perfect needle (WHAT AN ADVANTAGE). How many times have I seen people use the mixture control EXACTLY like an onboard FIXED needle. They never change it unless the boat is much to lean or much to rich. What a waste of a valuable piece of equipment!

Another misuse of the mixture control is by those with a wheel radio and a knob at the top of the transmitter. The ONLY way to change the mixture control is to take your hand off of the steering wheel while your boat is running all over the place. I might suggest that you either change the mixture control channel to the thumb wheel by re-programing your radio OR by changing the wires from the mixture control pot to the thumb wheel pot. A simple change of the three wires from one pot to the other is all that is required.

As for suggestions about the best mixture control, I will say that I have only used the OS Mixture control on my own boats, but have seen MANY use the Bob Violett mixture control successfully and I have heard that the mixture control that Competition Marine sells is also very good.

I hope that this simple explanation of the efficient use of a mixture control will be helpful.....

Be sure that you use discipline while applying this method and you will ALWAYS have the perfect needle on all your boats!

DON'T USE A MIXTURE CONTROL LIKE A FIXED NEEDLE or YOU MIGHT AS WELL USE A FIXED NEEDLE.

Thanks has to go to Marty Davis for this write-up!!! Thanks Marty, I have refered to this myself a few times and thank you for your effort!!!

 

[waltr]

Pete,

Don Ferrette has a great needle base for riggers.It makes for the cleanest steup you can do.The configuration is such,that it eliminates a bunch of extra fuel line and no need for crazy bends.Along with the OS in flight needle,as us old folks might say,It's the cats meow.

I can take a few pics of one my riggers for you when I get home this eve.

Here's a pic of the base and needle assy from Dons gallery:

https://www.intlwaters.com/gallery/displayimage...at=0&pos=11

 

[moparbarn]

i am also corious about setting up a remote needle. what do you do with the original needle? set it rich and lock it? clip it off and control everything with the remote? does clipping the needle in the carb affect spray pattern/atomization? what's everyone's thoughts on this? does not having the needle's tip in the carb jet/orfice change the fuel spray pattern? does it matter if it does? i know these are pretty basic carbs, but air and fuel flow characteristics are important in any fuel system,IMHO. what about with a venturi and ex. throttle?

 

[steve wood]

i am also corious about setting up a remote needle. what do you do with the original needle? set it rich and lock it? clip it off and control everything with the remote? does clipping the needle in the carb affect spray pattern/atomization? what's everyone's thoughts on this? does not having the needle's tip in the carb jet/orfice change the fuel spray pattern? does it matter if it does? i know these are pretty basic carbs, but air and fuel flow characteristics are important in any fuel system,IMHO. what about with a venturi and ex. throttle?

the orginal needle has to be completely removed from the system.i have used cmdi, bob violet and the os remotes. all work well. the os works extremely well mounted directly on the mac carbs( new spraybar assembly needs to be made). tried this with the bob violet and could not make it work right. found out last summer they must be mounted as close to carb as possible!

 

[steve wood]

i am also corious about setting up a remote needle. what do you do with the original needle? set it rich and lock it? clip it off and control everything with the remote? does clipping the needle in the carb affect spray pattern/atomization? what's everyone's thoughts on this? does not having the needle's tip in the carb jet/orfice change the fuel spray pattern? does it matter if it does? i know these are pretty basic carbs, but air and fuel flow characteristics are important in any fuel system,IMHO. what about with a venturi and ex. throttle?

the orginal needle has to be completely removed from the system.i have used cmdi, bob violet and the os remotes. all work well. the os works extremely well mounted directly on the mac carbs( new spraybar assembly needs to be made). tried this with the bob violet and could not make it work right. found out last summer they must be mounted as close to carb as possible!

 

[gooycheese]

This is a really good thread, thanks. I am also planning on doing a 3rd channel needle on the boat I am making now. So I will have to remove the existing needle in the carb? I am using an OPS 40 engine will there be any special scenarios of setting this up? Do I need a new spray bar and if so where do I get that?

Thanks,

Paul

 

[nitrotwin]

Gooy this is the spray bar and needle out of a ops 45 set up for a 3rd cut the threaded part off flush solder over making sure not to plug the spray bar I turned the bar down alittle and back cut the tip worked the barrel over alittle on the intake side so it blends in with carb throat.Hope this helps.JWB

 

[tnrcboatracer]

I would be careful about the back cut bevel on the spray bar. I have found that a straight counterbore gives the best vacuum signal. I have a carb flow bench that I use to set the spray bar, and can monitor the spray pattern as well. Sometimes what is thought to be better, really is not.

 

[Pete Markese]

Oooooh....this is all VERY heavy stuff for a newbie! But don't get me wrong, this is also outstanding feedback. Cutting spray bars, removing needles, rewiring the radio...I've got a headache!

Someone else had told me that all I would really need to do is to cut the tip off the needle in my OS .46 carb. Will that suffice?

I'm using a Airtronics MX-3S tx and to be honest, I've never even thought about the 3rd channel functionality. I can see if I have to remove my hand from the wheel to make the carb adjustments how this could be somewhat scary while the boat is running at speed. Oh well...Newbie in the pond using a 3rd channel needle valve for the first time...watch out!

 

[gooycheese]

Ok so I think I got this, the idea here is to move the HSN to the remote location and keep intact the the fuel input and the spray bar? I am almost positive I will be talking with Don Ferrette about this needle setup when I am ready to get one. This will be a little sooner rather than later seeing as how I hope to race the boat I am building in 5 weeks from this Saturday.

Thanks Again,

Paul

 

[jetpack]

I don't quite understand the extreme of cutting needles. Why don't you start with a overly rich setting on the needle and let the third channel mix lean it out? Why cut things up?

 

[tnrcboatracer]

By keeping the original needle in the carb, you are affecting the vacuum signal on the 3rd channel needle. The simple fix is to cut the original needle, but you must leave the threads for screwing it all the way down to seal the system. If the needle mount is brass, you can simply solder the end closed after removing the needle, but take care not to let the solder wick very far up the spray bar. You can reduce the wicking by limiting the heat.

 

[Pete Markese]

I don't quite understand the extreme of cutting needles. Why don't you start with a overly rich setting on the needle and let the third channel mix lean it out? Why cut things up?

jetpack, it sounds as if you've not cut or modded any of your carb needles or spray bars in using a remote needle set-up. Is that right? If so, I sure feel a lot more comfortable with my first attempt at this kind of a set-up to go your way. If I understand you correctly you're just setting the carb needle real rich and then leaning with the remote needle to find the most optimum setting from there. Right?

 

[jetpack]

Well, I could see the problem using certain two-needle carbs (stumbling on wide open snaps as the low speed needle lifts), but on a single needle setup I really can't understand how the mixer can "see" the needle.

I have a set of instructions for a Perry unit and it clearly outlines where to set the needle to begin to adjust the mixer. I can't say I have seen all the mixers on the market, but all the ones I have seen they are built with the same design concept as a fine mixture AFTER the main needle is set, and not meant to entirely replace them.

If anything I think it would actually hamper the mix if you were to remove the needle and cap the assembly. It is adding extra fuel volume to contend with, as it is forming a larger fuel galley. It was mentioned earlier to keep the line short, which I agree with - you want the least volume of fuel past the mixer.

 

[steve wood]

Well, I could see the problem using certain two-needle carbs (stumbling on wide open snaps as the low speed needle lifts), but on a single needle setup I really can't understand how the mixer can "see" the needle.
I have a set of instructions for a Perry unit and it clearly outlines where to set the needle to begin to adjust the mixer. I can't say I have seen all the mixers on the market, but all the ones I have seen they are built with the same design concept as a fine mixture AFTER the main needle is set, and not meant to entirely replace them.

If anything I think it would actually hamper the mix if you were to remove the needle and cap the assembly. It is adding extra fuel volume to contend with, as it is forming a larger fuel galley. It was mentioned earlier to keep the line short, which I agree with - you want the least volume of fuel past the mixer.

if you guys want to create yourselves a lot of problems by all means put two needles in the system. otherwise eliminate the one on the carb and use the remote.

 

[Don Ferrette]

If anything I think it would actually hamper the mix if you were to remove the needle and cap the assembly. It is adding extra fuel volume to contend with, as it is forming a larger fuel galley. It was mentioned earlier to keep the line short, which I agree with - you want the least volume of fuel past the mixer.

To run 3rd channel remote needle you remove & cap the main needle on the carb. If your carb has a low end needle that can be left in place but like Steve said trying to run 2 main needles is simply a recipe for disaster. h34r:

 

[moparbarn]

don, a couple of questions to lay my mind to rest :blink: . with a remote needle, and the original needle removed and plugged-do you still have positive fuel pressure at the carb orfice/spray bar? it just seems to me, that with the hs needle gone, it leaves a large hole to pressurize against. to go lean enough, does the carb side of the remote stay full/pressurized? what about spray pattern with the needle gone? just a hole works ok? or does a needle in the orfice help pattern/atomization? not doubting your wisdom at all, i don't have a clue, never ran one. just want to learn/ understand. my questions are related to k&b 3.5 ob's with black or gold carbs. i'm also going to be dealing with a 3.5 k&b ob with a prather mod kit("speed needle") -no carb, just the fr. housing contoured for a venturi with an ex. throttle and tuned pipe. any thoughts for that set up. thanx to getnoff for asking this question, and everyone else for sharing info .