racing partners discouraged in Florida

[HTV Boats]

For a number of years my son and I have raced in the same classes. This enables us to share spare parts,propellors, and race setups. Makes running 4-6 boats in a family easier. In order to pit for each other and only utilize one starting stand and not have to use random pit persons, we register on the same frequencies and hope there are enough entrants for two or more heats. When taveling over the years I have not seen a club that wouldn't extend the courtesy of keeping us separate. Again if only one heat we will make do. Over the weekend at a local race I was informed there is a new policy to make races "fair" and we will be made to change freq's to ensure a proper scramble where everyone races everyone. (was also not informed ahead of time to change to alternate frequency) Have not seen anything in writting as to proceedure. Guess I will have to check in every area we travel to from now on. I know there is no rule in the rulebook preventing two people registering on the same channel. I know of several racing partners who pit for each other and family members father son daughter husband and wife ect. who do this to make racing easier. Are we not trying to promote as many racers as we can get?

The explanation I recieved is we had a racing advantage. I have yet to see a perfect scramble and working around a couple set pairs will not prevent fair competition. The only way we can affect the outcome of a race is if we are in the same heat. That could promote "team orders". In separate heats we make our own destiny. And what about two racers who just happen to register on the same channel. Are we going to make someone change every time? I cannot see a racing advantage. More often I have seen certain racers get in heats with lttle competition while others race head to head with the fastest boats. Too bad our format can't be set up so you race the fastest in one go for it all heat at the end of the day. Car racers us qualifiers and A_B_C mains withs bump ups.

Being this policy was implemented mid season and not voted on by any majority I assume it came about from someone who isn't doing as well as they want. Hopefully it will get discussed at a district meeting.

If you have permanent pit person you probably will be apathetic to some of us getting this courtesy in registration. If you and a buddy ever travel to a new club this may effect you. If you need more people to bring boats, pay fees, drive distances and pay gas and lodging maybe think before you vote.

If there is a racing advantage I have yet to see it. We try to put competative boats in every heat and welcome racing the toughest competition.

Any thoughts pro or con are welcome.

Mic Halbrehder

 

[SayMikey]

For a number of years my son and I have raced in the same classes. This enables us to share spare parts,propellors, and race setups. Makes running 4-6 boats in a family easier. In order to pit for each other and only utilize one starting stand and not have to use random pit persons, we register on the same frequencies and hope there are enough entrants for two or more heats. When taveling over the years I have not seen a club that wouldn't extend the courtesy of keeping us separate. Again if only one heat we will make do. Over the weekend at a local race I was informed there is a new policy to make races "fair" and we will be made to change freq's to ensure a proper scramble where everyone races everyone. (was also not informed ahead of time to change to alternate frequency) Have not seen anything in writting as to proceedure. Guess I will have to check in every area we travel to from now on. I know there is no rule in the rulebook preventing two people registering on the same channel. I know of several racing partners who pit for each other and family members father son daughter husband and wife ect. who do this to make racing easier. Are we not trying to promote as many racers as we can get?The explanation I recieved is we had a racing advantage. I have yet to see a perfect scramble and working around a couple set pairs will not prevent fair competition. The only way we can affect the outcome of a race is if we are in the same heat. That could promote "team orders". In separate heats we make our own destiny. And what about two racers who just happen to register on the same channel. Are we going to make someone change every time? I cannot see a racing advantage. More often I have seen certain racers get in heats with lttle competition while others race head to head with the fastest boats. Too bad our format can't be set up so you race the fastest in one go for it all heat at the end of the day. Car racers us qualifiers and A_B_C mains withs bump ups.

Being this policy was implemented mid season and not voted on by any majority I assume it came about from someone who isn't doing as well as they want. Hopefully it will get discussed at a district meeting.

If you have permanent pit person you probably will be apathetic to some of us getting this courtesy in registration. If you and a buddy ever travel to a new club this may effect you. If you need more people to bring boats, pay fees, drive distances and pay gas and lodging maybe think before you vote.

If there is a racing advantage I have yet to see it. We try to put competative boats in every heat and welcome racing the toughest competition.

Any thoughts pro or con are welcome.

Mic Halbrehder

Mic I feel your pain as a c/d i will allow this . Some have done this father and son combos need this help esp. when driving hours to race........Mike Schindler

 

[Chris Wood]

mic,

I hear ya... Me and dad go to all the races generally speaking together.. we finally had to switch from both e-hydro to e & f hydro because we always got stuck together.. it is tuff and really unless the club works with you, it is hard to do.

chris

 

[bzubee]

That doesn't make any since do they make everyone with duplicated frequecies change up if so I guess that would be a different story what you are doing is no difference than 2 strangers entring on the same frequency. Only fair way is to assign frequencies by the post mark on the entry form first come first serve if yo uand your son were late getting your enty in and someone else got the first choice that also would be a different story.

mic,
I hear ya... Me and dad go to all the races generally speaking together.. we finally had to switch from both e-hydro to e & f hydro because we always got stuck together.. it is tuff and really unless the club works with you, it is hard to do.

chris

 

[Jerry Dunlap]

When my son and I go to a race, we register on the same freq and then if we both reach the final I'll admit I was on 2.4 all along.

JD

 

[gooycheese]

I haven't raced much but I do agree with you in a sense, you should be ready to race your family and be ready to change frequency in a given amount of time just like every other racer. If you and your son come down to a run off you should be changing frequency's , so it might be easier to have your boats on separate frequency's from each other (if your on the same frequency's just to avoid running against each other that wouldnt be fair either) . If you are running the same boats then this shouldn't be allowed, I have heard of this being done ( it would mean that you pit for your son and re-tune the boat and then race that same boat the next heat) this shouldn't be allowed its giving people free open water under current conditions. I am just stating some opinions if I am wrong I am sorry or if I misunderstood this subject I am sorry.

Paul

 

[Andy Greene]

That doesn't make any since do they make everyone with duplicated frequecies change up if so I guess that would be a different story what you are doing is no difference than 2 strangers entring on the same frequency. Only fair way is to assign frequencies by the post mark on the entry form first come first serve if yo uand your son were late getting your enty in and someone else got the first choice that also would be a different story.

mic,
I hear ya... Me and dad go to all the races generally speaking together.. we finally had to switch from both e-hydro to e & f hydro because we always got stuck together.. it is tuff and really unless the club works with you, it is hard to do.

chris

How do you NOT get around making frequency changes for duplicate freq. in a given class if there are less than 8 boats (2 heats) ?? And yes, in that case the person that entered first would have the right to that freq. I have had to change to avoid conflict, whats the big deal??? I suppose if you had asked the persons in charge for some leeway prior to the race and the were more than 8 boats in the class, some consideration could be given, but why ?? Heat selection for drivers should be as random as possible in my eye's , you draw who you draw and run them, period!! THATS racing. 2 people using the same freq. in the same class makes that impossible as they will ALWAYS be split. Im not making a statement for the persons that made this call( I dont even know who they were and dont care- thats not important) you asked for opinions good or bad and thats mine. I can tell you Mic I empithize with what your trying to accomplish in cost savings by being able to share equiptment,but I dont think 2 boats in the same class on the same freq. is right. I couldnt afford to run the fleet you guys do, so the cost involved hasnt been a consideration, but I dont think your being picked on either.

Just my .02-

 

[Bill Britton]

I have had to face this issue head on while writing the scoring application some of you may have read about.

While I don't claim to hold either side as 'the right way', you must understand that a computer is impartial to a person’s desire to not race against a son, father, brother, etc... And therefore creates what would be considered the fairest way to create a heat.

Typically a heat consists of 8 boats maximum and as a fundamental rule; a computer will create a heat based on the parameters given... i.e... Max boats per heat, min boats per heat, etc... And spit it out without regard to who you are against. On the other hand, a cd will usually strive to accommodate a racers request, but as computers start taking over our daily lives, more and more decisions are made by a computer using a 'logic tree' while humans typically make decisions based on emotion.

Not wanting to race against a family member is understandable, but you must understand that the cd that allows this and adjusts heats to accommodate this, does so at his ultimate discretion, and does not HAVE to do this. The negative result is when he/she stops or when the heats are then generated completely by computer. People perceive this emotionally as a trivial "why not' when it actually should be "why". Now that more and more races are/will be held using software that makes creating the heats easier, will also make adjusting them to accommodate this that much harder.

My two cents is this;

If I had to write and application that would have to take a given set of racers to make a heat, then take special consideration for just a few that did not want to race together. I would find that to be almost impossible to do. Whereas a heat generated by a computer that creates them from the fewest possible parameters will always offer the fairest heats.

If you have to make accommodations for a few people, then you might as well do it all by hand with a pencil and paper because you will never get a computer to take these considerations into account and still expect it to function impartially.

The application I am writing requires few parameters to create heats; min boats, max boats, etc.. and it will brutally do just that, requiring people to change freqs if the boatcount is less than the maxcount, unless doing so will create another conflict or there is no other way to break the conflict but to split the heat. this is the LOGICAL way to create heats. Some people may think it is wrong or right; it is just the most logical and impartial way to do it.

 

[HTV Boats]

I haven't raced much but I do agree with you in a sense, you should be ready to race your family and be ready to change frequency in a given amount of time just like every other racer. If you and your son come down to a run off you should be changing frequency's , so it might be easier to have your boats on separate frequency's from each other (if your on the same frequency's just to avoid running against each other that wouldnt be fair either) . If you are running the same boats then this shouldn't be allowed, I have heard of this being done ( it would mean that you pit for your son and re-tune the boat and then race that same boat the next heat) this shouldn't be allowed its giving people free open water under current conditions. I am just stating some opinions if I am wrong I am sorry or if I misunderstood this subject I am sorry.

Paul

This is not an issue of running the same hull with two people. (which is legal but risks equipment) We have separate equipment and I guess it really is keeping a constant pit partner that drives the practice for us. The 2.4 system may precipitate asking for "racing partners" to be recognized. Be nice if we didn't need a launch and a spotter. Hydro guys how many heats would you miss with out a good launch. Over the years we have had father son run offs and thats really fun. Sad to say in a normal heat race we let the faster boat by if we race each other rather than take a chance of taking each other out.

 

[FloridaScaleBoater]

Hey Mic;

I understand what you are saying and agree with you!

As long as there are enough boats to make 2 heats, you should be able to enter on the same freq. that is my opinion, and I think it has been customary, for as long as I've raced boats (near 20 years)

If there is a 3rd person on that same freq. and they had there entry in first, you are gonna have to change one of your freqs. again my opinion.

You are not the only one to complain about this practice, I heard other "teams" not happy with this happening.

OK, enough said on that.

Now on to your statement "running the same hull with two people. (which is legal but risks equipment)"

You are incorrect in that statement NAMBA rule book section 16, page 3, section c. paragraph 2. Two or more entrants may not race the same hull in the same class.

I'm assuming thats what you were refering to.

But the way its written, I could run a boat in say X MONO, the someone else could run the same boat in offshore, I do believe.

Just my 2cents on the matter

Rick Bellinger

 

[Ray Sametz]

I have a pitman who runs 20 mono with me, We ask the CD to be seperated. If it happens fine, if not thats fine too. Also lets get real here, heats are seldom set up totally at random. Who you are, and how fast you are factor in, good or bad. Also freg conflicts and having to change should be based on time of entry recieved, but we all know if its a club member and your from out of town guess who's changing. NAMBA does not have run offs, winner based on time in a tie. Im not complaining, Thats Racing, and I enjoy myself no matter how the clips fall. Besides I enjoy pitting for people I don't know, chance to make new friends or enemies when they hit a dead boat I missed. :lol: :lol: :lol: Have fun. Ray

 

[Eric Bourlet]

Every race I attend I try to sign up on the same channel as my pit man we always register as early as possible so we are the first two on that channel as long as there are enough for more than one heat. This situation avoids any problem with computer sorts because they have to check for frequency conflicts the same as a manual heat draw, or if two non associated racers just happen to sign up on the same channel. Of course if there is a run off or not enough boats we change. Your local club sounds like it needs a change of leadership. Clubs that play this chicken **** stuff need to be exposed so those of us that travel can cross them off our list. You should make sure you vote out the club officials and if that don't work run for District director and get this kind of behavior in check before it runs off more racers.

 

[Don Riek]

For a number of years my son and I have raced in the same classes. This enables us to share spare parts,propellors, and race setups. Makes running 4-6 boats in a family easier. In order to pit for each other and only utilize one starting stand and not have to use random pit persons, we register on the same frequencies and hope there are enough entrants for two or more heats. When taveling over the years I have not seen a club that wouldn't extend the courtesy of keeping us separate. Again if only one heat we will make do. Over the weekend at a local race I was informed there is a new policy to make races "fair" and we will be made to change freq's to ensure a proper scramble where everyone races everyone. (was also not informed ahead of time to change to alternate frequency) Have not seen anything in writting as to proceedure. Guess I will have to check in every area we travel to from now on. I know there is no rule in the rulebook preventing two people registering on the same channel. I know of several racing partners who pit for each other and family members father son daughter husband and wife ect. who do this to make racing easier. Are we not trying to promote as many racers as we can get?The explanation I recieved is we had a racing advantage. I have yet to see a perfect scramble and working around a couple set pairs will not prevent fair competition. The only way we can affect the outcome of a race is if we are in the same heat. That could promote "team orders". In separate heats we make our own destiny. And what about two racers who just happen to register on the same channel. Are we going to make someone change every time? I cannot see a racing advantage. More often I have seen certain racers get in heats with lttle competition while others race head to head with the fastest boats. Too bad our format can't be set up so you race the fastest in one go for it all heat at the end of the day. Car racers us qualifiers and A_B_C mains withs bump ups.

Being this policy was implemented mid season and not voted on by any majority I assume it came about from someone who isn't doing as well as they want. Hopefully it will get discussed at a district meeting.

If you have permanent pit person you probably will be apathetic to some of us getting this courtesy in registration. If you and a buddy ever travel to a new club this may effect you. If you need more people to bring boats, pay fees, drive distances and pay gas and lodging maybe think before you vote.

If there is a racing advantage I have yet to see it. We try to put competative boats in every heat and welcome racing the toughest competition.

Any thoughts pro or con are welcome.

Mic Halbrehder

Mic,

You are a bit off base on your comments. As the person who set up this race, and the person you questioned at the race, I should know. I never told you that there was some new "policy". I simply stated that this was the way I chose to set up the race, and, in my opinion, it's the most fair way for everyone. Why should ANY one contestant be exempt from running ANY other contestant. This has nothing to do with Father/Son, Husband/Wife etc. etc. I also did not state that you would have some advantage, again simply that setting up the race knowing that two contestants in the same class would NEVER have to run against each other was not the most fair way to draw the race. I also can't believe you are accusing me of some kind of selfish motive. I don't even run the same classes as you or the other contestants who were asked to change. Youy guys are asking me to "cheat" for you and in the same breath accusing me of cheating against you? You are way out of line here.

Eric Bourlet,

Where do you get off making these kind of comments? You have no idea of the hours of work and dedication I have devoted to bettering our local club. Just because Two pairs of contestants did not agree with the way I chose to set up this race, there were also a lot of other contestants who were in agreement with my decision. I gues we are all wrong and you guys are all right? Your comments insult me.

Everyone else,

Just to be clear, I eliminated ANY freuency conflict within a particular class, without regard for who the contestant was. All contestants in a class were on a different frequency when the race was set up. I truly believe that this is the most fair way to set up the race. We have limited entries in any class to a maximum of three heats per round (24 entries) Last I checked, there were more than 24 frequencies available. This should eliminate anyone in the class from being on the same frequency.

Don Riek

NAMBA 907

 

[captwalter]

I don't care one way or the other but I do feel badly for Don who did his best to run a good race. When my son and I were running seperate scales and sport 40's we would always list seperate frequencies and let the CD make the decisions. I have seen where racers find what frequency the hotshot racer is on and list the same frequency so that he does not have to run against the hotshot and have a better chance of winning. That is why I like the assigned frequencies we use in scale.

 

[hgatjens]

In RCU's case, the computer deals with boats on the same frequency and does not put them in the same heat. This was one of the orginal parameters we set up.

However, we have come across the situation where people do choose the same frequency for exactly the reason stated. To avoid raicing each other and to help each other out. We never really cared much about but then the past two years some father/son teams have done that. They do it so they can help each other out, but in actuality it gave them an unfair advantage over others as they never had to race each other.

We decided that to be fair, all boats in the top 20 in season points needed to have a dedicated frequency, different from everyone else in the top 20. This meant if you weren't in the top 20 and therefore more "recreational" racers you could still team up. However, if you were a more serious racer you had an equal chance to race any of the other top racers and no one didn't have to race against a specific other racer.

We had some initial grumbling over how we were "picking" on several people, as they needed to help each other. It was curious though, how they alwaya were able to find someone else to help when they both made the final. Finally after some good and heated discussion they understood the point and agreed to get on different frequencies. I think the key thing we learned as a club was, people don't care what you decide, as long as you include them in the discussion and try to make things fair for everyone.

 

[Tom Foley]

I don't care one way or the other but I do feel badly for Don who did his best to run a good race. When my son and I were running seperate scales and sport 40's we would always list seperate frequencies and let the CD make the decisions. I have seen where racers find what frequency the hotshot racer is on and list the same frequency so that he does not have to run against the hotshot and have a better chance of winning. That is why I like the assigned frequencies we use in scale.

Like lots of situations in life you have to have a protocol and follow it or nothing will ever get done without controversy . lots of times I will run 4 or 5 boats and never have the same pitman , who cares ? I am very thankful to have any help as I am usually a lone wolf at the races . I can show someone how to launch my twin in a minute ! I have become friends with many people through the random pitman process ! Imho ,, I want to run against the fastest guys , makes you a better driver .

I'm pissed I missed the race , nice job Brandon Club !

 

[Tom Foley]

I don't care one way or the other but I do feel badly for Don who did his best to run a good race. When my son and I were running seperate scales and sport 40's we would always list seperate frequencies and let the CD make the decisions. I have seen where racers find what frequency the hotshot racer is on and list the same frequency so that he does not have to run against the hotshot and have a better chance of winning. That is why I like the assigned frequencies we use in scale.

Like lots of situations in life you have to have a protocol and follow it or nothing will ever get done without controversy . lots of times I will run 4 or 5 boats and never have the same pitman , who cares ? I am very thankful to have any help as I am usually a lone wolf at the races . I can show someone how to launch my twin in a minute ! I have become friends with many people through the random pitman process ! Imho ,, I want to run against the fastest guys , makes you a better driver .

I'm pissed I missed the race , nice job Brandon Club !

 

[Tom Foley]

I don't care one way or the other but I do feel badly for Don who did his best to run a good race. When my son and I were running seperate scales and sport 40's we would always list seperate frequencies and let the CD make the decisions. I have seen where racers find what frequency the hotshot racer is on and list the same frequency so that he does not have to run against the hotshot and have a better chance of winning. That is why I like the assigned frequencies we use in scale.

Like lots of situations in life you have to have a protocol and follow it or nothing will ever get done without controversy . lots of times I will run 4 or 5 boats and never have the same pitman , who cares ? I am very thankful to have any help as I am usually a lone wolf at the races . I can show someone how to launch my twin in a minute ! I have become friends with many people through the random pitman process ! Imho ,, I want to run against the fastest guys , makes you a better driver .

I'm pissed I missed the race , nice job Brandon Club !

 

[Joe Wiebelhaus]

In large classes it may never make a difference, but in classes with 12 or less boats, there will be an atvantage over a 2 day race, and even more of an advantage if there are 2 or more "teams" in the system. If you were a "visitor" from a different district I guess it can be done, but if you race in the same district, at all the races, everyone should be on a different frequency. I liked the idea in NAMBA District 3, especially the scale class, everyone registers their boat on a different frequency, no problems, and like Tom mentioned, you get to meet some new people that way, I like that setup.

my 3 cents.............

 

[AFIRacing]

I think the racer who started this post should be ashamed of himself! I beleive the father and son WON both classes they entered! BUT EVERY RACE THEY GO TO WE ALL HEAR WHY THEY WAS NOT HAPPY. The son is lead by the ole man who has a opinion on everything and everyone at every race they attend. THANK GOD neither one hit a dead boat this time. I am the pitboss/vp at this club and cater to every racer there to make sure they race and HAVE FUN. ASK ANYONE WHO ATTENDED It so happens that the father and son team is a each is a member of our two brother clubs, YET never seen one in the chase boat or roll up a trip line or help set up a race site at either clubs functions, WHAT FUELS YOUR CONSTANT WHINING !!!! OH YEAH FORGOT ABOUT THE BAD TIME THEY HAD AT THE NATS THIS YEARE ALSO!! ERNIE ERTNIE ERNIE Heard it was just horrible,worse because they did not win! WHAT KIND OF PEOPLE BELONG TO A CLUB BUT NEVER LIFT AFINGER TO HELP OUT <JUST CRITIZIZE EVERYONE AND EVERYTHING ABOUT THE RACE. I SURE WOULD LIKE SOME INPUT FROM THE CLUBS THEY BELONGED TO IN MICHIGAN AS FOR THAT MANNER THE DISTRICT UP THERE. SEEMS TO BE A PATTERN????? If we had a award for asshole of the month I'm pretty sure Mic you would have a perfect score! From what I've seen no can cater to your whims BUT YOURSELF. If you can't show consideration for those of us that hold and work these events near and far.CLUBS that your suppose to belong to constantly bashing them after every event.SELL THE **** IF YOU CAN"T FIND HAPPINESS AND FUN IN THIS HOBBY>( I WAS GONNA MENTION FELLOWSHIP.BUT I THINK YOU,VE ALREADY BLEW THAT AROUND HERE). OR MAYBE START YOUR OWN CLUB AND SHOW US ALL HOW TO DO IT CORRECTLY.

HOW DO YOU SLEEP AT NITE WITH YOURSELF???

STEVE HEARL/NAMBA 491