Nitrous oxide on a nitro motor

[dwilfong]

I started a tread about a SC on a .21 eng using the RB charger. A SC on a two stroke will gust help scavenge the crank case and cly. But on the other hand NOS will charge the cyl in all RPM ranges unlike the pipe that will only do it in a small range. The delivery system is the problem. Keeping the fuel NOS in a rich condition is hard to do with the NOS bottle changing pressure as it is emptied. Small NOS cylinders will only hold so much volume at pressure and the pressure is limited to start. I was talking with some one on this subject and he pointed me in the direction of high pressure O2 bottles. If starting with a very high pressure and larger volume you can discharge at a lower pressure for a longer time. Keeping the gas discharge pressure at a constant pressure you will be able to control the mixture with the fuel. Keeping it at a rich state longer. Also making a stand alone system where the fuel tank is pressurized by the O2 tank will balance the pressure drop in the system on both the fuel and the O2 to keep them in balance. This system I think will have some merit in are small engines.

David

 

[Jim Allen]

I started a tread about a SC on a .21 eng using the RB charger. A SC on a two stroke will gust help scavenge the crank case and cly. But on the other hand NOS will charge the cyl in all RPM ranges unlike the pipe that will only do it in a small range. The delivery system is the problem. Keeping the fuel NOS in a rich condition is hard to do with the NOS bottle changing pressure as it is emptied. Small NOS cylinders will only hold so much volume at pressure and the pressure is limited to start. I was talking with some one on this subject and he pointed me in the direction of high pressure O2 bottles. If starting with a very high pressure and larger volume you can discharge at a lower pressure for a longer time. Keeping the gas discharge pressure at a constant pressure you will be able to control the mixture with the fuel. Keeping it at a rich state longer. Also making a stand alone system where the fuel tank is pressurized by the O2 tank will balance the pressure drop in the system on both the fuel and the O2 to keep them in balance. This system I think will have some merit in are small engines.

"The delivery system is the problem. Keeping the fuel NOS in a rich condition is hard to do with the NOS bottle changing pressure as it is emptied. Small NOS cylinders will only hold so much volume at pressure and the pressure is limited to start. I was talking with some one on this subject and he pointed me in the direction of high pressure O2 bottles. If starting with a very high pressure and larger volume you can discharge at a lower pressure for a longer time. Keeping the gas discharge pressure at a constant pressure you will be able to control the mixture with the fuel. Keeping it at a rich state longer. Also making a stand alone system where the fuel tank is pressurized by the O2 tank will balance the pressure drop in the system on both the fuel and the O2 to keep them in balance. This system I think will have some merit in are small engines."

David

You're on the right track here David. The best nitrous operating systems have a second bottle of nitrogen at 900 psi that pressurizes the nitrous bottle. Solenoids control the delivery of both the additional fuel needed & the nitrous oxide. The engine is protected with a sensor in the fuel line that shuts the engine down if the nitrous is delivered without the additional fuel. Anyone think this is possible in a model boat? The two 8 ounce size bottles that are required would be placed where in the boat?

Jim Allen

 

[PakMan]

I started a tread about a SC on a .21 eng using the RB charger. A SC on a two stroke will gust help scavenge the crank case and cly. But on the other hand NOS will charge the cyl in all RPM ranges unlike the pipe that will only do it in a small range. The delivery system is the problem. Keeping the fuel NOS in a rich condition is hard to do with the NOS bottle changing pressure as it is emptied. Small NOS cylinders will only hold so much volume at pressure and the pressure is limited to start. I was talking with some one on this subject and he pointed me in the direction of high pressure O2 bottles. If starting with a very high pressure and larger volume you can discharge at a lower pressure for a longer time. Keeping the gas discharge pressure at a constant pressure you will be able to control the mixture with the fuel. Keeping it at a rich state longer. Also making a stand alone system where the fuel tank is pressurized by the O2 tank will balance the pressure drop in the system on both the fuel and the O2 to keep them in balance. This system I think will have some merit in are small engines.

"The delivery system is the problem. Keeping the fuel NOS in a rich condition is hard to do with the NOS bottle changing pressure as it is emptied. Small NOS cylinders will only hold so much volume at pressure and the pressure is limited to start. I was talking with some one on this subject and he pointed me in the direction of high pressure O2 bottles. If starting with a very high pressure and larger volume you can discharge at a lower pressure for a longer time. Keeping the gas discharge pressure at a constant pressure you will be able to control the mixture with the fuel. Keeping it at a rich state longer. Also making a stand alone system where the fuel tank is pressurized by the O2 tank will balance the pressure drop in the system on both the fuel and the O2 to keep them in balance. This system I think will have some merit in are small engines."

David

You're on the right track here David. The best nitrous operating systems have a second bottle of nitrogen at 900 psi that pressurizes the nitrous bottle. Solenoids control the delivery of both the additional fuel needed & the nitrous oxide. The engine is protected with a sensor in the fuel line that shuts the engine down if the nitrous is delivered without the additional fuel. Anyone think this is possible in a model boat? The two 8 ounce size bottles that are required would be placed where in the boat?

Jim Allen

Best place would be in the sponsons... but that brings up some other issues.

 

[dwilfong]

I started a tread about a SC on a .21 eng using the RB charger. A SC on a two stroke will gust help scavenge the crank case and cly. But on the other hand NOS will charge the cyl in all RPM ranges unlike the pipe that will only do it in a small range. The delivery system is the problem. Keeping the fuel NOS in a rich condition is hard to do with the NOS bottle changing pressure as it is emptied. Small NOS cylinders will only hold so much volume at pressure and the pressure is limited to start. I was talking with some one on this subject and he pointed me in the direction of high pressure O2 bottles. If starting with a very high pressure and larger volume you can discharge at a lower pressure for a longer time. Keeping the gas discharge pressure at a constant pressure you will be able to control the mixture with the fuel. Keeping it at a rich state longer. Also making a stand alone system where the fuel tank is pressurized by the O2 tank will balance the pressure drop in the system on both the fuel and the O2 to keep them in balance. This system I think will have some merit in are small engines. "The delivery system is the problem. Keeping the fuel NOS in a rich condition is hard to do with the NOS bottle changing pressure as it is emptied. Small NOS cylinders will only hold so much volume at pressure and the pressure is limited to start. I was talking with some one on this subject and he pointed me in the direction of high pressure O2 bottles. If starting with a very high pressure and larger volume you can discharge at a lower pressure for a longer time. Keeping the gas discharge pressure at a constant pressure you will be able to control the mixture with the fuel. Keeping it at a rich state longer. Also making a stand alone system where the fuel tank is pressurized by the O2 tank will balance the pressure drop in the system on both the fuel and the O2 to keep them in balance. This system I think will have some merit in are small engines." David

You're on the right track here David. The best nitrous operating systems have a second bottle of nitrogen at 900 psi that pressurizes the nitrous bottle. Solenoids control the delivery of both the additional fuel needed & the nitrous oxide. The engine is protected with a sensor in the fuel line that shuts the engine down if the nitrous is delivered without the additional fuel. Anyone think this is possible in a model boat? The two 8 ounce size bottles that are required would be placed where in the boat? Jim Allen

My SGX90 boat has plenty of room in the radio box as I keep the ruder servo in the bait box.The next boat will be 4" longer also.

David

 

[moparbarn]

one possible source for high pressure, small bottles would be motorcycle air/co2 shifters. refillable, too.

 

[JAMEYGALLIHER]

Nitrous Oxide Systems(NOS) made a Dry Kit years ago that used 2 solenoids with a T between them, the T held a jet which would regulate the pressure going to the fuel pressure regulator . So when you activated the nitrous the fuel pressure would rise making the injectors spray more fuel .

 

[dwilfong]

I have a idea on a self contained system that is separate from the main fuel system. a small tank to hold the fuel and a high pressure O2 bottle.

using the regulator to control the O2 out put and send this pressure to the small fuel tank with a T fitting. then use a separate valve to control the fuel flow to the eng. the system would have to be charged all the time and both the fuel and O2 vales would have to turn on at the same time.

That way you will have a enrichment with its own circuit that is separate from the main running circuit.

Same as ones used on large gas eng. Using a 4th channel to turn it on and off.

David

 

[Tom Foley]

I was thinking of it in a Fogger scenario simply foggin the interior of the cowl . The Nitrous is not a fuel in itself but an Oxidizer so to make more power in an already cleanly needled engine you have to add more fuel to burn or all you have is a Detonator !!

 

[dwilfong]

I was thinking of it in a Fogger scenario simply foggin the interior of the cowl . The Nitrous is not a fuel in itself but an Oxidizer so to make more power in an already cleanly needled engine you have to add more fuel to burn or all you have is a Detonator !!

Tom me and Albert spent some time at the party talking. He has already tried it with O2 and it worked.

Would O2 be legal?

 

[JAMEYGALLIHER]

You would not need the co2 , pressurize the aux. tank with exhaust pressure and use a fuel solenoid and you would have a wet kit

 

[hugh hargett]

Sounds good.

 

[Albert Araujo]

David,

I have been giving this some thought once again since we spoke about this at the Nats. I think my next try will be to go with the O2 system but using a low pressure bottle from the RC plane retract systems. What I found when I tried this was that all you need is a VERY small amount to get huge gains. If we can establish low pressure constant flow then we could set the needle to the proper mixture. As the pressure drops in the tank the mixture would go a bit rich but as engine temp goes up that may balance out. One more thing to try. Imagin adding O2 to my 40 rigger. YEEEEEHA! I was planing on using this in my twin to smoke Joe. Dam you for letting the cat out of the bag. (humor)

I know one thing for sure, It makes LOOOOOTTTTS of power. :-O)

 

[Albert Araujo]

David,

Did a little test with a retract bottle. It gives a nice hiss for about four minutes which is plenty of time for milling and the 60 seconds of the race. Would this be legal?

Albert

 

[dwilfong]

Albert

Those cats are real pissed off in the bag just trying to make them happy.

Maybe some of those that know the ins and outs of the rule book will chime in and let us know.

Dam your boats are fast enough. :angry: I hope it's illegal. :lol: Next thing you know you will want to make a turbine legal. :unsure:

David

 

[Albert Araujo]

David,

Need to make my boats run like the jets. h34r: Funny, after flying the jets for so many years my boats seem slow. Have one jet that flew in the mid 300mph and came in to land at about 90.

Albert

 

[adam eddings]

I don't know anything about nitrous on a r/c boat.

But, I know enough about 10.5 class( run what you brung and hope you brought enough ) to know better.

The problem with this is a nitrous bottle is a nitrous bottle and a whip cream bottle is a whip cream bottle .

A true nitrous bottle has a direction of flow with this side up so the stem inside in liquid.

2 for every hp above 75 increase reqires timing to be pulled to prevent detonation/ cause lean condition and blow cylinder head off..

Modren fuel injection let the O2 sersor take control and regulates the fuel pressure to the injectors cycle and pulls timing .

Supercharging such as that from rv inovations sounds great but the problem of timing is still there.

The 6V's and 8v's Detroit diesels that everyone talks about were Naturally aspirated with turbo and superchargers.

Now if I were to mess with any of this I would go for the supercharger and the reason would be conisisity and tuneabilty.

I can't control timing but I can control compression and exhaust maybe.

The 2 stroke nitro engine is a blow thru is it not?

I would forget about old tech such as tune pipe's because it is for Naturally / Non forced induction engine. and reinvent if I were trying to do this.

65$ to refill vs 0 cost on blower.

 

[lohring]

Real two stroke supercharging increases exhaust back pressure along with intake pressure. It still can use tuned pipes to take advantage of the pulsating nature of the engine. Look carefully at the 800+ hp turbocharged engine in the picture below. I've never seen an intelligent two stroke model engine supercharging system. There are several successful model four stroke superchargers. The YS system is the best known.

Our little engines can always use more oxygen in any form. Jim has run the most exotic fuel I know of. The advantage of oxygen bearing fuels are that they only need one mixture setting and run continuously. Unless you carry enough nitrous oxide for the whole race, you need to richen the mixture when you hit the nitrous button. This may be possible with a third channel needle and the mixing functions of modern radios.

Lohring Miller

 

[Zach Vought]

There are lots of good theories I here. A simple idea (Jamey touched on it) is a system produced by NOS. this system is still used today where "wet" kits are not a viable option due to "fuel puddling" in the intake. If you build a nitrous system and manufacture a "T" with a 3rd channel needle that supplies nitrous pressure to an auxiliary tank to push fuel that would work. Ideally, you would manufacture a small nozzle system out of hard tubing that has both fuel and nitrous inputs. You would then feed the fuel from said pressurized tank to the nozzle. The nozzle needs to be manufactured in a was as to not pressurize the fuel side but to act as a venturi or vacuum pulling the fuel out of the fuel side and atomizing it as the nitrous passes over the fuel side. You could then creat the proper "mix" of nitrous and fuel. Next, O2 works. That's why nitrous works. The nitrogen in the N2O mix aids in cooling incoming air. With that said, you can use either. Just be aware that you will have higher temps with O2. I have built several of the about nozzle set ups for bikes etc. I'm sure I can find a pic somewhere. If you go to www.inductionsolutions.com Steve did an install on a Victor Efi manifold for a mustang that represents the nozzle design I am describing. Now I will have to do some more research. I have been wondering of this could be applied to help get a boat "up" when running that extra little bit of prop that is just doesn't want to run . Theoretically if the boat got up on it and you continued to supply it with at least fuel, it should be able to Mai rain the prop speed.

 

[Chris Davis]

I have used nitrous in many automotive applications. modern day systems are incredible. In my current set up the nitrous is computer controlled and every aspect of the system has a fail safe. Low fuel pressure, RPM switch so the system can't be activated below 3000 RPM Full throttle acivation switch so nitrous cannot be activated without a full throttle. The solenoids are computer pulsed and with dials I can control the percentage of initial boost and a ramp program for duration of shot till you reach 100%. With my set up now I come on at 10% power and 4 seconds to max power. That's 30 hp going to 300 hp boost in 4 seconds. With this system traction problems are overcome.

I think a very simple system for anyone wanting to experiment with nitrous should just use the 3rd channel mixture control to activate the system. Set your mixture control arm at full throw to activate your micro switch witch activates the nitrous. It would be very tunable just by setting the end point and the amount of added fuel before the juice comes on.

 

[Joe Warren]

Was curous if anyone else was useing nitrous oxide on thier boats. I realize this is not legal for racing, Nor am i trying to hide anything in my set up to get over on someone.... i just think its a fun concept to play with. I have been expreimenting with it on a couple of older motors. Biggest problem seems to be heat and a tendency to lean out at WOT. Tried setting very rich to allow for this... still end up changing bearings / sleeves and pistons. Anyone know of a kit to allow to change your high speed needle on the fly? thinking if that were possible it would solve alot of the issues.

Nitromethane is a oxygen bearing fuel It produces oxygen when compressed.... & the ambient air density is the mutiplier... NOS is nothing but compressed Oxygen x 2500....... Adding NOS to Nitromethane is a Super Lean Condition. You AFR would be off a Ton......... It works best in fuels that Do not Produce there own Oxygen!! But However.... Going Up on NItro Percentage could get you what you want. it is more BTU`s and more Oxygen at the same time & it is manageable. Worked with NOS 2 stage set ups in Tunnel Rams BB Chevy engines. Most were in the 500-600 gain area. with 4- 6 bottles in series & 2 stage Gas tanks. You can put a lot of NOS in a Tunnel Ram with Foggers in a High Compression Motor. Managing the Fuel Pressure and the AFR Number was a MUST to have a dependable ride and Not be under the hood with the engine torn down after every pass.