Nitro versus Gas

[P THOMAS]

Hey I met Roger few years ago too, Your concern for nitro is good, there are weak spots around the country im sure but in the midwest and east it is popular. More races than can be attended The Hydro Masters in Indiana drew alot of boats and should be big this year too.

Like Al says if we can build boats and motors that work and dont cost a fortune, boating will survive just fine.

The best thing for new boaters are the quality and cost of the RTR boats that can be had for the price of a good racing motor. We have a very active Vegas hydro class racing. More fun for the money is important to get a new person involved.

Sure they have some issues being on the cheap side but that makes someone learn to maintain and make it perform better. Skills needed to go racing Hi teck boats with mod motors.

Gas is drawing some nitro boaters because of the fuel and glowplug costs, and FE boats are very fast but start up costs to go fast seem to be more than nitro right now.

I will have some new nitro sport boat and I will be making some boats for gas and some for FE too. Boat racing will survive.

 

[julianconde]

i have to agree nitro racing is getting very low towards the west all of the nitro racing is more towards the midwest and the east.

we have to get more people involve in racing to bring more competiton and have a very good time thats what the hobbie is fun fun fun...

 

[julianconde]

hey roger you need to race 20 B mod tunnel also lol

 

[Rokieboater]

Roger,

You bring up a good a point. I personally think Gas is so popular because you can do all your shopping with one stop (so to speak). I can go to CC Racing or Insane Boats web-site and order everything I need for a competitive Gas Boat. Cost will add up to $2,000.00 +/-. For more money they will even build it for me. Where can you do that with Nitro? Use to be Andy Brown/CMDi. When he was doing his thing many people would run his stuff. You could get everything less radio from him. Now with him out of the picture there is not a single place to get everything you need for Nitro.

Gas Manufactures have made it soooo easy regardless of the cost. I personally think I can get a competitive Nitro boat and race it for a while before I reach the cost of a competitive gas boat. (just my opinion). The Nitro manufactures need to take note on having one stop shopping and Nitro racers will come back.

Zipp Kits has a good .21 rigger kit that can be built and race ready for less than $800.00. You can buy a lot of nitro and plugs before you reach $2,000.00. Probably a couple of years worth. I am finishing an Insane Gen-4 Sport Hydro and it will finish out at over $2,000.00. Both boats will probably go the same speed when all is said and done. The difference is I can literally order the Gas boat on Monday, receive it on Friday and have it ready that weekend and buy it all from one internet site. the other boat will take a month and I have had to get parts from different people.

Just my .02

Robert Holland

 

[Marty Shallenberger]

Id say about even and I race both. Here is the difference your gas boat will come back almost every time. Cost for the weekend barring failures or lost props are cheaper for gas. Pipes and hardware for gas boats are much higher. I love them both and am securing a gas scale hydro right now. Price is about 1/3 more than a nitro scale,but you will see an instant 60mph vs hard work to get that from a nitro. O love this hobby but its killing my retirement LOL

You have a class for gas scales?

Roger- We have been quietly working on the GAS SCALE CLASS for a couple of years now- For information and photos visit www.pnwta.org

 

[Glenn 787]

Once you get past the initial cost gas is hard to beat.

It's been brought up a number of times already but fuel and glow plugs are not cheap.

Convenience: I can go to Kragen and get a NGK plug for $2.99 and it will last even if the carb setting is off. Cheap gas is readily available everywhere.

Engines: New gas engines can be had for around $200.00 if you do your own mods or run stock. Full mod Zenoah's $450-600.

New ring vs a new piston/sleeve assuming normal wear and tear.

New boaters: Roger, you can look at our own district and ask yourself where a new boater has a chance to be competitive. Not talking about driving skills just competitive speeds.

Still soured on nitro after finding out the problem with my scale had nothing to do with the Macs I sold you. I'll eventually run the class again but it isn't high on my priority list.

In a better economy or for the wealthy you can just about throw this whole arguement out the window.

 

[Roger Hooks Jr.]

Roger,

You bring up a good a point. I personally think Gas is so popular because you can do all your shopping with one stop (so to speak). I can go to CC Racing or Insane Boats web-site and order everything I need for a competitive Gas Boat. Cost will add up to $2,000.00 +/-. For more money they will even build it for me. Where can you do that with Nitro? Use to be Andy Brown/CMDi. When he was doing his thing many people would run his stuff. You could get everything less radio from him. Now with him out of the picture there is not a single place to get everything you need for Nitro.

Gas Manufactures have made it soooo easy regardless of the cost. I personally think I can get a competitive Nitro boat and race it for a while before I reach the cost of a competitive gas boat. (just my opinion). The Nitro manufactures need to take note on having one stop shopping and Nitro racers will come back.

Zipp Kits has a good .21 rigger kit that can be built and race ready for less than $800.00. You can buy a lot of nitro and plugs before you reach $2,000.00. Probably a couple of years worth. I am finishing an Insane Gen-4 Sport Hydro and it will finish out at over $2,000.00. Both boats will probably go the same speed when all is said and done. The difference is I can literally order the Gas boat on Monday, receive it on Friday and have it ready that weekend and buy it all from one internet site. the other boat will take a month and I have had to get parts from different people.

Just my .02

Robert Holland

That's good feedback Robert. I hope the manufacturers are taking notes. I guess being a marketing guy I am always looking for assesments that can be made from a consumer survey point of view so I can use that information to make recommendations on which direction a product, company or even an entire industry should go. I think you hit the nail on the head. "One Stop Shopping". We see it all around us. You can buy groceries, clothes, outdoor supplies, and consumer electronics at Walmart. You can buy gas, food and beverages at Quik Stop and watch TV, DVDs and surf the internet on your monitor. So why wouldn't a guy want to buy his boat, engine and radio all at the same place. Makes completely good sense when you compare it to the expectations we have from providers that supply us with goods and services around us in our daily lives.

It sounds like cost can vary depenging on how handy or available time you have in the shop.

Lead time should also be a consideration in these times of instant gratification. For this reason manufacturers may opt use methods that allow them to turn product around faster. Maybe even considering bareing the burden of keeping more inventory of popular products rather than building to order. It's costly when things are slow but can equate to better service when things are busy.

One Stop Shopping and Shorter lead times are not new business concepts. I have just found that, although they may mean well, smaller busineses as are most R/C boating businesses the owners see things through a very narrow scope and at times they fail because what they want to do is not necessarily meets the markets needs on a larger scale. And I think price is not as much of an issue if you can deliver a quality product quickly with high availability and responsiveness to maintenance and repairs.

 

[Roger Hooks Jr.]

Still soured on nitro after finding out the problem with my scale had nothing to do with the Macs I sold you..

Hahahahahaha! And I thank you very much. I smile each time I pull my engines out of my Twin or 60 Hydro because I know that if I manage to blow sets at a time that I bought more than enough spares for the price of a Denny's Grand Slam Breakfast. Good thing for you is that for many years to come, every time you see me you can wish me a Merry Christmas, Happy Birthday and your covered. LOL!

 

[misshydro]

Hey I met Roger few years ago too, Your concern for nitro is good, there are weak spots around the country im sure but in the midwest and east it is popular. More races than can be attended The Hydro Masters in Indiana drew alot of boats and should be big this year too.

Like Al says if we can build boats and motors that work and dont cost a fortune, boating will survive just fine.

The best thing for new boaters are the quality and cost of the RTR boats that can be had for the price of a good racing motor. We have a very active Vegas hydro class racing. More fun for the money is important to get a new person involved.

Sure they have some issues being on the cheap side but that makes someone learn to maintain and make it perform better. Skills needed to go racing Hi teck boats with mod motors.

Gas is drawing some nitro boaters because of the fuel and glowplug costs, and FE boats are very fast but start up costs to go fast seem to be more than nitro right now.

I will have some new nitro sport boat and I will be making some boats for gas and some for FE too. Boat racing will survive.

Phil if you build a gas scale of the Miss ellam hull would be great... Then joe would love to get one form you..and put his oberto up as boat to run for fun... the proublem is nitro is costly to run.. fuels and 6.00+ glow plugs dont help.. some of those nitro motors like CMB and new AA.45's cost 400.00+ compared to a zen at 199 and sikk at 300 and RCMK are at 299-400..Gas parts are abit more but you'll see the savings at the races on fuels and plugs in the long run...

 

[SayMikey]

Nessa if you plan to run gas scale you will need a mod motor to compete. Your looking at the same cost for motor,gas pipes are pretty much 150 bucks. The new hulls will only be a couple hundred bucks more. But imagine a boat that goes 60 mph and returns to shore every time. Not sitting DEAD in the racing lane on lap one PRICELESS Ive ordered a West Coast Elam to help promote gas scale in the Midwest.......

 

[P THOMAS]

Phil if you build a gas scale of the Miss ellam hull would be great... Then joe would love to get one form you..and put his oberto up as boat to run for fun... the proublem is nitro is costly to run.. fuels and 6.00+ glow plugs dont help.. some of those nitro motors like CMB and new AA.45's cost 400.00+ compared to a zen at 199 and sikk at 300 and RCMK are at 299-400..Gas parts are abit more but you'll see the savings at the races on fuels and plugs in the long run...

Well I will think about it for sure a T6 style hull would make alot of boats. Some other hull like the Newton 108 and the 82U55 would be good too. Lot of possible scale boats with the new rcmk rz motor, rear exhaust more like a ntro setup and will fit better in side the cowl.

 

[Marty Shallenberger]

Nessa if you plan to run gas scale you will need a mod motor to compete. Your looking at the same cost for motor,gas pipes are pretty much 150 bucks. The new hulls will only be a couple hundred bucks more. But imagine a boat that goes 60 mph and returns to shore every time. Not sitting DEAD in the racing lane on lap one PRICELESS Ive ordered a West Coast Elam to help promote gas scale in the Midwest.......

Nessa- Snell Designs is selling the Gas scale E-Lam complete hull package along with the Newton 108 plan cowing that is on my OLY boat. (see photos)

He also has a 82u55 complete hull package that is 90% done.

Marty

Info on Gas Scale www.PNWTA.org

Jeff Snell [[email protected]]

 

[Don Ferrette]

But imagine a boat that goes 60 mph and returns to shore every time. Not sitting DEAD in the racing lane on lap one PRICELESS

I've messed with both nitro and gas for a good number of years now and while it might have been true a while back, now that we've pushed these gas motors to the edge it seems lately a whole lot more come back in the retrieve boats than it used to be from "running issues". Years ago nitro stuff was more reliable but we just had to go faster. MORE nitro, MORE grinding on the motors, MORE prop, etc. And guess what? Now we're seeing that repeat itself in gas racing. Deja Vu' my friends, we've been down this road before. And it costs me far more to build my gas stuff than nitro and that is simple fact, the hole in the wallet does not lie. If you want to run up front and be competitive you'll run a mod motor. So by the time you buy your full mod motor, manifold, header and pipe you've spent close to a grand and still don't have a hull to put it in. And when you dunk a gas motor you're typically rebuilding it if it ingests any significant amount of water, go in hard enough and you'll blow the jug clean off. I've put a twin under water at full song, blown the water out of the motors and gone right back out to running. You won't do that with a gas motor without opening the wallet up. The only thing cheaper about gas racing is the fuel and nothing more. The real reason gas is so popular nowadays is we've become a "plug and play" society and that is exactly why gas is so appealing. So simple pretty much anyone can do it, just pull the cord and go run .... until something doesn't work right. Full on board ignition systems, complex multi-stage metering carbs, etc, etc. can make things far from "simple". And while it's somewhat surprising to me how many people out there who run gas cannot diagnose and/or repair one when they start to act up I've seen more than a few seasoned guys (myself included) chase what seemed to be a "simple" problem on a gasser all day at the pond. Nitro is neanderthal by comparison, a glow plug and a spray bar ... think about it. The hardest part about nitro is knowing how to hit a needle but that requires learning and EFFORT. The real truth is when it works gas is EASY and it appeals to our LAZY side, plain and simple. Not to mention it also removes the "learning curve" and we get "instant racers" with 50-60 mph boats and 30 mph brains but let's save that for another discussion. With all this being said I'm not at all trying to bash gas as I have, do and will continue to run gassers but that is how it is........

 

[Marty Shallenberger]

Phil if you build a gas scale of the Miss ellam hull would be great... Then joe would love to get one form you..and put his oberto up as boat to run for fun... the proublem is nitro is costly to run.. fuels and 6.00+ glow plugs dont help.. some of those nitro motors like CMB and new AA.45's cost 400.00+ compared to a zen at 199 and sikk at 300 and RCMK are at 299-400..Gas parts are abit more but you'll see the savings at the races on fuels and plugs in the long run...

Well I will think about it for sure a T6 style hull would make alot of boats. Some other hull like the Newton 108 and the 82U55 would be good too. Lot of possible scale boats with the new rcmk rz motor, rear exhaust more like a ntro setup and will fit better in side the cowl.

Phil- You are right on in regards to the motors - Our Gas Scale Club rules allow for the front carb rear exhaust RCMK motors and they are working out great in the Scales - You can build the hull with a 5 inch tub and bolt the gas motor in just like a nitro motor- Attached is a photo of the Gas E-Lam motor install

Gas Scale coming to a pond near you

Marty

 

[Roger Hooks Jr.]

Phil if you build a gas scale of the Miss ellam hull would be great... Then joe would love to get one form you..and put his oberto up as boat to run for fun... the proublem is nitro is costly to run.. fuels and 6.00+ glow plugs dont help.. some of those nitro motors like CMB and new AA.45's cost 400.00+ compared to a zen at 199 and sikk at 300 and RCMK are at 299-400..Gas parts are abit more but you'll see the savings at the races on fuels and plugs in the long run...

Well I will think about it for sure a T6 style hull would make alot of boats. Some other hull like the Newton 108 and the 82U55 would be good too. Lot of possible scale boats with the new rcmk rz motor, rear exhaust more like a ntro setup and will fit better in side the cowl.

Phil- You are right on in regards to the motors - Our Gas Scale Club rules allow for the front carb rear exhaust RCMK motors and they are working out great in the Scales - You can build the hull with a 5 inch tub and bolt the gas motor in just like a nitro motor- Attached is a photo of the Gas E-Lam motor install

Gas Scale coming to a pond near you

Marty

So who make this engine originally? Is there strictly a R/C marine application or are there other uses for it? I like it. This doesn't look so foreign to a long time nitro guy but is there a good chance it will be around for a while?

 

[LarryConrad]

I run my Harley on gas, It's just too cost prohibitive to build a V Twin that can handle running on nitro, and tires wear out way too quick. My boats all run on nitro though.

 

[Marty Shallenberger]

Phil if you build a gas scale of the Miss ellam hull would be great... Then joe would love to get one form you..and put his oberto up as boat to run for fun... the proublem is nitro is costly to run.. fuels and 6.00+ glow plugs dont help.. some of those nitro motors like CMB and new AA.45's cost 400.00+ compared to a zen at 199 and sikk at 300 and RCMK are at 299-400..Gas parts are abit more but you'll see the savings at the races on fuels and plugs in the long run...

Well I will think about it for sure a T6 style hull would make alot of boats. Some other hull like the Newton 108 and the 82U55 would be good too. Lot of possible scale boats with the new rcmk rz motor, rear exhaust more like a ntro setup and will fit better in side the cowl.

Phil- You are right on in regards to the motors - Our Gas Scale Club rules allow for the front carb rear exhaust RCMK motors and they are working out great in the Scales - You can build the hull with a 5 inch tub and bolt the gas motor in just like a nitro motor- Attached is a photo of the Gas E-Lam motor install

Gas Scale coming to a pond near you

Marty

So who make this engine originally? Is there strictly a R/C marine application or are there other uses for it? I like it. This doesn't look so foreign to a long time nitro guy but is there a good chance it will be around for a while?

There is a lot of information regarding the RCMK motors on the GAS forums- My personal opinion is they are in it for the long run. If not there are other options for the Gas Scale class.

 

[Ron Olson]

RCMK's are the gas engines to have now. Their Evo and S engines have more HP and RPM out of the box than a lot of modded Zen's and at a lower price. Mr. Park is in it for the long haul and the people at RCMK aren't sitting on their duffs as they just came out with a very economical twin that's a lot more compact than any other. You can have a twin gas engine for the price of a big-block nitro burner.

What I have troubles with are tuned pipes that can run you $185-215.00 and $70.00 ready to go props. You save elsewhere like the price of gas over nitro. A set it and pretty much forget it carb on the gassers as opposed to the constant tuning of a nitro carb.

Gas boats, the larger size is a little easier to build and work on for us older guys with fat fingers and bad eyes.

I love Cat's and gas has a class just for them, nitro doesn't.

I love them both and have a pile of each so I'm not biased towards either.

 

[misshydro]

Phil if you build a gas scale of the Miss ellam hull would be great... Then joe would love to get one form you..and put his oberto up as boat to run for fun... the proublem is nitro is costly to run.. fuels and 6.00+ glow plugs dont help.. some of those nitro motors like CMB and new AA.45's cost 400.00+ compared to a zen at 199 and sikk at 300 and RCMK are at 299-400..Gas parts are abit more but you'll see the savings at the races on fuels and plugs in the long run...

Well I will think about it for sure a T6 style hull would make alot of boats. Some other hull like the Newton 108 and the 82U55 would be good too. Lot of possible scale boats with the new rcmk rz motor, rear exhaust more like a ntro setup and will fit better in side the cowl.

Phil- You are right on in regards to the motors - Our Gas Scale Club rules allow for the front carb rear exhaust RCMK motors and they are working out great in the Scales - You can build the hull with a 5 inch tub and bolt the gas motor in just like a nitro motor- Attached is a photo of the Gas E-Lam motor install

Gas Scale coming to a pond near you

Marty

That the motor Joe wants in his mod proboat gas hull..but Joe would love to get his hands on the gas miss elam hull... Just email [email protected] to ask about that hull..

 

[TimothyJones]

I love the smell and sound of nitro motors in the morning of a race. When I hear I gas boat I'm thinking I should be at home doing yardwork.

So with that said: I want a gas whiplash so bad I can't stand it. You want to know why, they are fast and it looks like everyone has fun running them.

If it was a cost issue nobody would be in this hobby!!!

Get what you would think would be the most fun,Thats what its all about.

Tim