NITRO % DROP IN COULD WETHER

[charles siler]

So guys living in Alaska is good for making power but the lack of heat or air temp robs power other ways . I am wanting to start mixting my own fuel but I need more schooling . I have read that the bace temp of where to start is 68 Degrees. So my question is after you mix your fuel say to 60% as the temp

rises and falls what is the Rule of thumb of nitro % of drop off in cold weather

whitch would lead to power loss. Say 60% is @ 68 deg. what would it be at 45 deg. like 52%? can I get some help Thanks Charlie

 

[Al Hobbs]

Your question is way too technical for me. But, I have run the same fuel mix at temperatures as high as 120 degrees F in New Mexico and Arizona as I have run at 20 degrees F in Canada.

The problem in cold temperatures was of course to just get the fuel to light. I used a squirt of lighter fluid to get the engine to fire. Once the engine fired and warmed the case, the engine ran just as hard, same prop, same pipe, same speeds, as long as I disconnected the water pickup.

Of course, the following day the pond had started freezing over.

Al Hobbs

 

[John Beardslee]

Hi Charles,

I don't know if you can still get propolene oxide but we used a mix of our base fuel with 3% prop to prime down the carb to light the engines in cold weather in Michigan. In winter running propeller (air) driven power sleds on snow and ice (.45 glow engines) we used the same primer to get them fired. Some didn't use the propolene oxide but use a propane torch to heat the heads to get the warm and they fired the engines successfully.

John

 

[zboter1]

Correct me if Im wrong here somone.

when mixed properly 60% is always 60% regardles to temp,

temp only effects the density of nitro when measuring.

Make sure you have good ventalation. you should be on the up side of the mixing in relation to ventalation. so fumes are pulled away from materials. Just like a room is set up to test for TB

paul

 

[zboter1]

yes you can get the propolyne oxide..

 

[John Knight]

The baseline ambient temp for measuring nitro % is 68* F. So if you are using a blend of 50%, at 68* it is 50%. Any change in temp WILL increase or decrease the nitro %. The higher the amt of nitro (65% vice 50%) will cause greater increases than that with a lower nitro %, such as 30%.

As an example, using 50%:

50% @ 68*

49% @ 70*

48% @ 80*

46% @ 90*

44% @ 100*

55% @ 40*

53% @ 50*

51% @ 60*

60% nitro will change about 2-3% per 10* change

70% nitro will change about 3% per 10* change

30% nitro will change about 1-2% per 10* change

A quality hydrometer will verify the exact nitro % in the fuel at any time and at any temp.

I had a chart sent to me some years ago but cannot yet find the file. If I do I will post it. The source of the information is from the NHRA top fuel and funny cars guys. They should know, they use about 90% of the nitro for racing.

The lower the air temp, the more the air density is. The higher amount of air molecules, the greater the power that can be generated. More power, more speed and easier to needle as well. The reverse is true. And that is why most time and record trials are NOT in the warmer months of the year. They are in the cooler late fall and early spring periods.

BTW guys, take a very close look at the rules for fuel additives. Prop oxide is ILLEGAL in IMPBA and NAMBA and can cause a good suspension from racing from either organization. Lighter fluid being added in the carb to help ignite the fuel when starting is legal. It is a long time trick that does work when needed in very cold weather. I have only seen it normally used under 40*.

 

[bzubee]

Propolyne oxide IS NOT one of the ingredients banned in the rulebook. John here is the section from the rulebook. Prop has been used for year in fuel as an oxidizer to help ignition of the fuel in cold weather.

5. Fuel restrictions

The use of Tetra Nitro Methane or Hydrazine is illegal in all phases of model boating

controlled by IMPBA. Any member found using these would be banned from

IMPBA for one year. In addition, he will have to reimburse to IMPBA the entire

fuel analyzing costs prior to being allowed to rejoin this organization.

 

[timothy johnson]

The guys at Indy used Propolyne Oxide in the late 70s don't get behind the exhaust or get it in your eyes. It also evaporates very quickly when exposed to the air.

 

[charles siler]

The baseline ambient temp for measuring nitro % is 68* F. So if you are using a blend of 50%, at 68* it is 50%. Any change in temp WILL increase or decrease the nitro %. The higher the amt of nitro (65% vice 50%) will cause greater increases than that with a lower nitro %, such as 30%.

As an example, using 50%:

50% @ 68*

49% @ 70*

48% @ 80*

46% @ 90*

44% @ 100*

55% @ 40*

53% @ 50*

51% @ 60*

60% nitro will change about 2-3% per 10* change

70% nitro will change about 3% per 10* change

30% nitro will change about 1-2% per 10* change

A quality hydrometer will verify the exact nitro % in the fuel at any time and at any temp.

I had a chart sent to me some years ago but cannot yet find the file. If I do I will post it. The source of the information is from the NHRA top fuel and funny cars guys. They should know, they use about 90% of the nitro for racing.

The lower the air temp, the more the air density is. The higher amount of air molecules, the greater the power that can be generated. More power, more speed and easier to needle as well. The reverse is true. And that is why most time and record trials are NOT in the warmer months of the year. They are in the cooler late fall and early spring periods.

BTW guys, take a very close look at the rules for fuel additives. Prop oxide is ILLEGAL in IMPBA and NAMBA and can cause a good suspension from racing from either organization. Lighter fluid being added in the carb to help ignite the fuel when starting is legal. It is a long time trick that does work when needed in very cold weather. I have only seen it normally used under 40*.

Thanks John my buddy Scott said you had it together Im working on getting the flowmeter and I had it backwords on tthe % gains sa it gets cooler so my 55% @ 40deg. is more like 60% sweet so i can stick with the 55% pre mix on my BB OPS motors. Hey do you know anyone that would mix 70% and ship to Alaska and how many gollons that I would have to buy to do so I made a fuel orderjust before the season ended and i bought 6 cases of 55% for my twin and used almost 2 buy the time the pond froze .thanks Charlie

 

[John Beardslee]

The guys at Indy used Propolyne Oxide in the late 70s don't get behind the exhaust or get it in your eyes. It also evaporates very quickly when exposed to the air.

I have some instructional sheets from Rossi in the late 80's that their recommended fuel was 10% propo added to alcohol and oil. I always assumed it was due to the lack of nitro methane in Europe.

Thanks, John

 

[John Beardslee]

Propolyne oxide IS NOT one of the ingredients banned in the rulebook. John here is the section from the rulebook. Prop has been used for year in fuel as an oxidizer to help ignition of the fuel in cold weather.

5. Fuel restrictions

The use of Tetra Nitro Methane or Hydrazine is illegal in all phases of model boating

controlled by IMPBA. Any member found using these would be banned from

IMPBA for one year. In addition, he will have to reimburse to IMPBA the entire

fuel analyzing costs prior to being allowed to rejoin this organization.

Hi Bill,

Thanks, I was involved in the printing of the first IMPBA rule book and went back through the new one and couldn't find an area that spoke of propolene oxide, only the stuff you mentioned. We thought about banning Nitrobenezine but it was already outlawed by the gov't and no one can produce it. We I moved north in 2008 I got rid of my last quart, still remember that shoe polish smell, it is almost as addictive as caster oil and nitro!!!!

John

 

[charles siler]

The guys at Indy used Propolyne Oxide in the late 70s don't get behind the exhaust or get it in your eyes. It also evaporates very quickly when exposed to the air.

I have some instructional sheets from Rossi in the late 80's that their recommended fuel was 10% propo added to alcohol and oil. I always assumed it was due to the lack of nitro methane in Europe.

Thanks, John

Hey John can you post a pic of thoughs instructions later Charlie

 

[John Knight]

Propolyne oxide IS NOT one of the ingredients banned in the rulebook. John here is the section from the rulebook. Prop has been used for year in fuel as an oxidizer to help ignition of the fuel in cold weather.

5. Fuel restrictions

The use of Tetra Nitro Methane or Hydrazine is illegal in all phases of model boating

controlled by IMPBA. Any member found using these would be banned from

IMPBA for one year. In addition, he will have to reimburse to IMPBA the entire

fuel analyzing costs prior to being allowed to rejoin this organization.

There was an identical discussion about a year or so ago. Someone quoted from a Roostertail since the March 2008 publication date of the current rulebook that prop ox was prohibited. I cannot find that at the moment. The rulebook quoted is in Section K, page K-2, paragraph 5, technical standards. True that prop ox is not mentioned. Maybe my memory is shot but I was sure it not allowed. I was given some about 4 years ago and I disposed of it properly as it is a carcoginen, big time, fluid or fumes. Take your life into your hands if you choose to use it and others possibly too.

 

[John Knight]

The baseline ambient temp for measuring nitro % is 68* F. So if you are using a blend of 50%, at 68* it is 50%. Any change in temp WILL increase or decrease the nitro %. The higher the amt of nitro (65% vice 50%) will cause greater increases than that with a lower nitro %, such as 30%.

As an example, using 50%:

50% @ 68*

49% @ 70*

48% @ 80*

46% @ 90*

44% @ 100*

55% @ 40*

53% @ 50*

51% @ 60*

60% nitro will change about 2-3% per 10* change

70% nitro will change about 3% per 10* change

30% nitro will change about 1-2% per 10* change

A quality hydrometer will verify the exact nitro % in the fuel at any time and at any temp.

I had a chart sent to me some years ago but cannot yet find the file. If I do I will post it. The source of the information is from the NHRA top fuel and funny cars guys. They should know, they use about 90% of the nitro for racing.

The lower the air temp, the more the air density is. The higher amount of air molecules, the greater the power that can be generated. More power, more speed and easier to needle as well. The reverse is true. And that is why most time and record trials are NOT in the warmer months of the year. They are in the cooler late fall and early spring periods.

BTW guys, take a very close look at the rules for fuel additives. Prop oxide is ILLEGAL in IMPBA and NAMBA and can cause a good suspension from racing from either organization. Lighter fluid being added in the carb to help ignite the fuel when starting is legal. It is a long time trick that does work when needed in very cold weather. I have only seen it normally used under 40*.

Thanks John my buddy Scott said you had it together Im working on getting the flowmeter and I had it backwords on tthe % gains sa it gets cooler so my 55% @ 40deg. is more like 60% sweet so i can stick with the 55% pre mix on my BB OPS motors. Hey do you know anyone that would mix 70% and ship to Alaska and how many gollons that I would have to buy to do so I made a fuel orderjust before the season ended and i bought 6 cases of 55% for my twin and used almost 2 buy the time the pond froze .thanks Charlie

I would not bother with the cost of getting more than 55%. It makes little difference with the big blocks. It can be more effective with the smaller ones. The cost and more trouble getting and keeping needles using very high nitro content is not worth it IMHO. Not sure either about the DHS shipping gov't regs going outside of the lower 48 states. DHS gets stupid, a lot, especially over 50% nitro.

 

[John Beardslee]

The guys at Indy used Propolyne Oxide in the late 70s don't get behind the exhaust or get it in your eyes. It also evaporates very quickly when exposed to the air.

I have some instructional sheets from Rossi in the late 80's that their recommended fuel was 10% propo added to alcohol and oil. I always assumed it was due to the lack of nitro methane in Europe.

Thanks, John

Hi Charles,

I still have a file folder I think, I'll scan it and e-mail it to you.

Thanks, John

Hey John can you post a pic of thoughs instructions later Charlie

 

[shoboat]

Fellas,

For how toxic prope oxide is May I suggest a simple way to burn nitro?

I run in the cold a lot up here in northern Michigan, and the way to burn nitro

Anywhere is to use an on-board glow igniter. I run 66% nitro until the ice stops me.

Just get a 1/3rd AA battery and use a clip like the helicopter guys use on their glow plugs.

You can use this all year long and run a little richer needle and still burn the nitro better.

I would not mess with prope oxide if I was you, or if you don't care about your body.

Have Safe Fun,

Happy Holidays,

Mark Sholund

 

[John Beardslee]

Hi Mark,

I think just having electric starters is also a big help. Our problem wasn't keeping them running, it was only to get them started, if I remember a few old timers used some mixture with gasoline in it to prime also. At that time many modelers still used big drycells (1.5V) to start with and ya we were roping those engines. That could also account for why we had such heavy duty engine mounts and girders in the hulls.

The best lesson I learned was to head south to warmer weather if at all possible!!!! Still, running those air prop driven R/C power sleds on Lake St. Clair at +100mph with my students from Lake Shore High School is a fond memory.

Check out the fine print on a lot of the products we buy and use in our daily lives and a bunch of it is known to cause cancer in California, doesn't always mention the rest of the world.

John

 

[charles siler]

Well guys not wanting to comlicate running boat any more than it is . my maine concern was to see if I was loosing power and to eliminate problems in tuning The 55% fuel is been workin great and I havent had the running and starting problems that you guys are talking about but I have a 24 volt starter and have deen deconpressing on start ups cold or hot if anything when it cold the grease in the stuffing tube has been the biggest Headache! I am using the grim grease and it works well untell 40 and lower then it gets sticky and its hard to start and run and we lost 15 mph just from that alone any better ideas no that . Also the fuel mixing I want to run 70% in my to 45 motors they are both running in the 80s and I have spent the money to go fast I just want to go all the way even though its still for fun . I do thank EVERYONE for there thoughs and opinions it does helps the sport I my self have influanced alot of people back into nitro . thanks again for your help and suport Charlie in ALASKA

 

[charles siler]

Ok guys who will make up 70% with 20% oil amd ship to Alaska and do I have to buy two cases thanks Charles

adress is 4661 Cascade Circle

Anchorage Alaska 99502

Here is my adress so you can figure out shipping charges

 

[shoboat]

Charles,

Torco 66% fuel from Rodney Pierce is all you will need for your 45's.

The 4% change you will not even see any difference.

If you want to go faster you will need to find more RPM or power to pull

more pitch or spin it faster.

You should get a on-board oiler from Steve Wood and try Klotz Bean Oil

for your driveshaft lubrication, I think it will solve your grease problem.

Have Fun Testing,

Mark