Newton Plan updates

[Lennard Cuenco]

I was curious what those of you running scratch built boats have done, if anything, to update your boat for today's faster speeds...

I'm widening the tunnel a bit and changing the canoes to Dave Frank style running surfaces

 

[FloridaScaleBoater]

Reduce forward, center section nose rise.

Add angle of attack to sponsons

 

[Lennard Cuenco]

Reduce forward, center section nose rise.

Add angle of attack to sponsons

hmm..

thats interesting, ppl i have chatted with are reducing AoA slightly

 

[Joe Wiebelhaus]

Reduce forward, center section nose rise.

Add angle of attack to sponsons

hmm..

thats interesting, ppl i have chatted with are reducing AoA slightly

No, dont do that, less AOA will only make the hull more reactive to rough water conditions.

Rick hit right on the nose, IF possible, lessen the bottom angle from the break line at the rear to the nose, this will eliminate the "packing" effect of air under the hull.

Not many people do this, but if you buy or build a hull, buy a digital angle finder and measure actual AOA on your sponsons, you would be surprised.

Most of Newtons plans are around 2.2 to 2.6 at best, and that is if its built exactly from plans, you should be, for pickle forks, MIN. 3.2 to 3.6 AOA measured, not assumed.

Others will run as high as 4.0 to 5.0 AOA

Another thought, Newton plans, those secondary riding surfaces, MHO, not needed..............

 

[shoboat]

Len,

With more AOA on the sponsons it will allow 1400 series propellers

which have a lot of adjustability in them. The 1457/3 comes to mind

as a great choice for a scale.

Have Fun Building,

Mark Sholund

 

[Dasboatman]

"1. Rick hit right on the nose, IF possible, lessen the bottom angle from the break line at the rear to the nose, this will eliminate the "packing" effect of air

2. ...buy a digital angle finder and measure actual AOA on your sponsons, you would be surprised

Others will run as high as 4.0 to 5.0 AOA

3.Another thought, Newton plans, those secondary riding surfaces, MHO, not needed.............."

Bingo!!! I think I may have an idea as to where Rick got these radical ideas.

It all comes down to how much of a puriest you are. There is a major difference between a 1/8th Scale boat at 60 mph, than a 29 to 30 foot Unlimited at 200 mph. I would probably hurt myself with a digital angle finder, Joe so when I glue my design sponsons to the center section, I use blocks of wood on a slab of glass to hold the tub and sponsons in position with weights while the epoxy cures. Just did this earlier today - pic attached. I set the sponsons at 1/2" six inches forward of sponson touch - I'm thinking that's right at 5 degrees Joe. I struck a local horizontal, measured six inches then up 1/2" and measured that with a mechanical device - Compass. Off topic - I broke out a slide rule the other day. Young Engineer Friend asked me what that device was - he had never seen one before. Yes, I too have a Scienticic calculator, but my slide rule doesn't need batteries.

Roger did more for 1/8th Scale modeling than anyone I have known. If you are building to comply with R/C Unlimiteds Rule Book then Roger's plans give you an excellent plan. If, like myself, you have been racing 1/8 Nitro Scale under IMPBA and/or NAMBA sanctions - the Scale requirements are not as stringent. NAMBA and R/C Unlimited Rule Books are available through their online sites. I would encourage all Scale boaters to look at both to see the differences in specifications. I have always felt that Scale boaters fit somewhere within this spectrum. At one end, the Purist that builds as closely as he can to the specifications of the real boat. On the other end - The Racer. He likes to go fast and is not overly concerned with fidelity to the real boat. I've always thought that I fall somewhere in the midle of the bell curve.

Secondary riding surfaces - - AMEN, Joe. I can't tell you how many times I have tried to help a brand new Scale boater get a per plan boat to operate. I met a very good modeler - Russell - when I first moved to Texas in 2003. He had built a Squire from plans and did an absolutely Beautiful job. I went to the first test with him. After flailing with that hull for a long while,adding an air dam to disturb the air flow being packed under the hull so it wouldn't fly at 50 mph, and making sponson, and other changes - we gave up. The hull was sold, and we lost the opportunity to recruit a new Scale boater. I told Russel that we met six months too late. I would have suggested some changes to the plan and Russell would probably be racing Scale boats with me today. He's now doing R/C 1/4 Scale airplanes.

Just some of my thoughts on Scale boats. Not meant to iniiate any long debate, or hurt anyone's feelings. Race Scale boats Fast and turn Right !!! CHEERS !!! Bob

 

[Dasboatman]

"...With more AOA on the sponsons it will allow 1400 series propellers

which have a lot of adjustability in them. The 1457/3 comes to mind....

Mark,

We raced 1465s on solid shafts running in ball bearings with OPS 65 powered Scale boats in the 70s.

I have a solid shaft/Ball bearings in my Classic Thunderboat now, running a heavily modified 1470. I have 1667, 2167/70s, and even a 1475 to try when it warms up some - - can always use the 1475 as a floor fan blade if it doesn't work in the CT with stock Zenoah. Har, Har !!! CHEERS !!! Bob

 

[Roy Munoz]

You still useing those solid shafts?? The last one I saw useing one was probely you at the NAT's and Nitro Buzz..Boy you realy got to be right on when useing one of those...

 

[Dasboatman]

"You still useing those solid shafts?? The last one I saw useing one was probely you at the NAT's and Nitro Buzz..Boy you realy got to be right on when useing one of those..."

Yes Roy,

still trying to swim upstream. I figured that with a stock engine in the CT, it could use all the help it could get - Har, Har !!! I cheated with this one - it's adjustable. I can't tell you how many webbed in solid drive shafts I have cut out , and then reinstalled just to move the drive line up or down a 16th of an inch. Right after I decided to revisit solid shaft again and installed one in a Cotton round nose Harold Dobbins built and gave me a while back - after the fact, Don says: "Have you never seen my Power Drive??" well, DUH !!! Like "No". I must have been boring holes in the North Atlantic when he came up with that. I just don't have the heart to cut that finished, webbed in stuffing tube out of the round nose and reinstall Power Drive in it - - I'm too old school and too lazy to do that. If it needs to be tweaked later - maybe !!! I had a solid shaft in the Sport 40-1 Chuck McGaughy and I campaigned shortly before I moved from the Left Coast. Sold it to Al Waters as I recall - no SP41 in Florida in 1996.

Thinkin' about peeing on that electric fence again to see if the result is still the same too Har, Har !!!

I miss Buzz. CHEERS !!! Bob

 

[Roy Munoz]

Yeah I miss Buzz also.. He show me a few things that have served me well to this day....

 

[Hydro Junkie]

One thing you all have forgotten is that many of Roger's plans were drawn for the lower powered K&B, OS and early Picco's as they were the power house engines available at the time. Packing more air was as much a godsend as a requirement that is no longer needed. What has worked for me is to build the sponsons per the plans and shim the sponson runners slightly. I've always found it easier to adjust a sponson by experimenting with the AOA after the build is completed than setting a steeper angle while building with the hope that I'm right. As for the bottom angle, I was researching a boat that I've been working on and found the angle on the plans to be almost TWICE the angle on the full sized boat, which was MEASURED at 4*, though at the same time, the aft bottom was considerably longer on the full sized boat as well.

 

[Dasboatman]

Hey HJ,

We didn't forget, that was the initial question Lennard posed :

"Newton Plan updates Dealing with today's horsepower Lennard Cuenco"

There is, to this day, no better a source for plans, paint plans, and photographs than Roger started so many years ago.Heck, I even enjoyed the coloring books. There is, however reason to believe that modifications to his plans are just the next progression.

I never had the discussion with Roger of exactly where he obtained such knowledge of or specific reference for so many different frame plans. In the Model Airplane Scale arena there are detailed three view available for many aircraft directly from the manufacturer. Add to that engineering drawings and other sources of accurate information. I have never seen a detailed three view for any Unlimited. As close as I ever got were Roger's plans. They have been the basis for many 1/8 Scale models both Nitro and now electric. And now we have the 1/6th Scale group growing, not to mention all the ER/cU models that are around these days. The man built himself a living tribute - can't ask for more than that. It's ALL Good !!! CHEERS !!! Bob

 

[Lennard Cuenco]

"1. Rick hit right on the nose, IF possible, lessen the bottom angle from the break line at the rear to the nose, this will eliminate the "packing" effect of air

2. ...buy a digital angle finder and measure actual AOA on your sponsons, you would be surprised

Others will run as high as 4.0 to 5.0 AOA

3.Another thought, Newton plans, those secondary riding surfaces, MHO, not needed.............."

Bingo!!! I think I may have an idea as to where Rick got these radical ideas.

It all comes down to how much of a puriest you are. There is a major difference between a 1/8th Scale boat at 60 mph, than a 29 to 30 foot Unlimited at 200 mph. I would probably hurt myself with a digital angle finder, Joe so when I glue my design sponsons to the center section, I use blocks of wood on a slab of glass to hold the tub and sponsons in position with weights while the epoxy cures. Just did this earlier today - pic attached. I set the sponsons at 1/2" six inches forward of sponson touch - I'm thinking that's right at 5 degrees Joe. I struck a local horizontal, measured six inches then up 1/2" and measured that with a mechanical device - Compass. Off topic - I broke out a slide rule the other day. Young Engineer Friend asked me what that device was - he had never seen one before. Yes, I too have a Scienticic calculator, but my slide rule doesn't need batteries.

Roger did more for 1/8th Scale modeling than anyone I have known. If you are building to comply with R/C Unlimiteds Rule Book then Roger's plans give you an excellent plan. If, like myself, you have been racing 1/8 Nitro Scale under IMPBA and/or NAMBA sanctions - the Scale requirements are not as stringent. NAMBA and R/C Unlimited Rule Books are available through their online sites. I would encourage all Scale boaters to look at both to see the differences in specifications. I have always felt that Scale boaters fit somewhere within this spectrum. At one end, the Purist that builds as closely as he can to the specifications of the real boat. On the other end - The Racer. He likes to go fast and is not overly concerned with fidelity to the real boat. I've always thought that I fall somewhere in the midle of the bell curve.

Secondary riding surfaces - - AMEN, Joe. I can't tell you how many times I have tried to help a brand new Scale boater get a per plan boat to operate. I met a very good modeler - Russell - when I first moved to Texas in 2003. He had built a Squire from plans and did an absolutely Beautiful job. I went to the first test with him. After flailing with that hull for a long while,adding an air dam to disturb the air flow being packed under the hull so it wouldn't fly at 50 mph, and making sponson, and other changes - we gave up. The hull was sold, and we lost the opportunity to recruit a new Scale boater. I told Russel that we met six months too late. I would have suggested some changes to the plan and Russell would probably be racing Scale boats with me today. He's now doing R/C 1/4 Scale airplanes.

Just some of my thoughts on Scale boats. Not meant to iniiate any long debate, or hurt anyone's feelings. Race Scale boats Fast and turn Right !!! CHEERS !!! Bob

that's a sweet setup bob...I like ur plate glass for truing things up...tryin to figure out where to get one

btw, just heard from Mike McKnight that Mike (spoon mike) can customize his laser kits to your specs...very cool!

 

[Larry K]

Lots of good info on here Len! First of all, what Bob said about Roger's efforts to advance the Scale class will probably remain unmatched by anyone - EVER! The pluses & minuses in the rule books allow boats to be built that don't look or act anything like their full-sized counterpart. Roger was able to draw boats that really did work pretty well & still looked like they were supposed to. HJ is right - when guys were running Super-Tigers, OPS 65s & the earliest Piccos (from the "P" in OPS I've been told), the speeds weren't quite what they are today - although by the early '80s, 60+ on an oval & 75+ SAW speeds were common. Anyway, if there was a weakness in Roger's plans, it was a "scale appearing" bottom. The difference with Scale hulls is we don't have scale air or water. We don't have to figure out how "fly" 6000 lbs. I was fortunate enough to build my first 3 hulls from plans by Les Ruggles. They also looked good, worked pretty well and taught me a lot. I listened to Les, Gale Whitestine & Jack Haugen anytime they would talk about design and, in the end, decided that for the most part, lift was not necessarily a good thing. If you look at the engine well mains on your plans, you will likely see an asymmetrical airfoil - one that will generate lift w/ speed whether it has any incidence or not. All of Roger's early plans were like that, most of his later stuff - not so much. I decided to try something. I drew and built a 7207 hull with a flat ramp type bottom that angled down from the bow block to a point on the base line that was about 10" ahead of the transom. It got up well, cornered ok & did just about everything you would expect a boat to do - except for one thing. At somewhere around 50-55 mph, with no warning, it would lift off like a fighter jet with the after-burners on! It even did a 360 and kept going more than once. Then to complete the experiment, I put stringers along the sponson mains that had a long, slow curve to them & attached a sheet of styrene plastic - a false bottom - that ran from the bow block to the break in the original bottom. We ran the boat again - the difference was like night and day! It didn't suffer any set-back in performance, it just didn't fly anymore. What did it prove? Try this - go to the kitchen & turn on the tap. Hold a butter knife at an angle and move it under the stream. The water will take off at an angle and probably several other directions as well. Now get a teaspoon or tablespoon. Hold it sideways so the water runs over the rounded backside of the bowl of the spoon. Air ,as well as water, will follow the curve with minimal disturbance. Disturbed or "dirty" air that is trapped under the boat will generate unwanted lift and at some point becomes critical. By the way, this is why "air dams" don't really work very well, especially if they are not right at the front edge of the air trap. If you re-draw the bottom on your plans, consider a curved line that is at least similar to the curvature of the deck so that you have a more symmetrical airfoil. Also, I would be careful about arbitrarily changing sponson AOA. AOA is a function of several other factors & you can shoot yourself in the foot pretty easily. I would be inclined to leave that alone until you run the boat. One more thing - secondary riding surfaces can generally be eliminated on models as they are simply there to help get that 6ooo lb boat on step w/ less drag at speed. Make some minor changes, build the boat , enjoy the process & run the hell out of it. It will tell you if anything else needs to be changed! If it's too far out of whack, NAIL IT TO THE WALL & BUILD ANOTHER ONE!!

 

[Dasboatman]

Hey Larry K,

Very well said.

That is why I like modeling so much - the ability to build something, throw it a medium - be it water or air and see what happens. If you are curious what the cause and effects are for certain attributes of an airplane or a boat, you can amuse yourself for a lifetime trying something new, evaluating that, and then modifying that premise yet again. When I was a child I modeled with my Father - Gus Johnson. I used scraps of balsa wood to build something and would see if it would fly either free flight, or attached to the end of a string. My Father flew control line speed models from my earliest recollection. As I got older and started to enter contests - the challenges became more detailed. I liked Team race - both with a .29 glow engine and FAI, which used a .15 Cu. In. diesel engine and was limited to 10cc of onboard fuel. I built Rat Racers, Navy Carrier, and many different classes of Free Flight. Loved it !!!

In 1969 or so, my "Big Bad Brother Don" ( I don't have a Brother, so that role was filled with our Friend- Don Pinckert) decide R/C boating would be fun.Here's a pic of his first boat. Gus and I followed. I was home on leave from the Navy in 1970, saw the boats run,and went to Orange Blossom Hobbies in Miami and bought my first boat - a 40 Little Hoss with a K&B dykes ring, rear induction, side exhaust 40. Pic attached.

Don was boating with Jerry Thomas. Jerry built a couple of framed hulls - white glue for assembling wooden framed models was thought to be sufficient - however, it failed miserably. So Jerry started experimenting with different foams. Don and I believe that Jerry was the first one to build a boat with foam an aircraft grade ply - that hull Jerry named "E-99 Long Gone" See pic attached of Don with First D-50, Jerry's Long Gone is on the ground to Don's left.

From this point, Gus and I started building WOF Scale looking hulls. The first of this group was Gus' PAY 'n PAK in 1974 running an OPS 60 Car engine. K&B 40 carb, that he hung an Octura 45 steel flywheel,Kool Clamp, and universal, driving a Dumas 3/16 hardened stainless steel shaft supported by ball bearings in a K&S brass stuffing tube. Roger didn't have plans for the 7325 U-25 yet, so Gus took a lot of pics of the boat from the '73 appearance at the Marine Stadium in Miami, and drew up a set of plans. This was also before there was a 1/8th Scale class, so we raced in E-Hydro with outriggers, full apron hull hull called the Thunderboat/Big Hoss.pic attached.

So, as you can see, it has been a really fun journey for me and many other boaters. I have done this on and off for 40 years now, have meet some really outstanding people along the way, and feel better for having the experience.

Go Fast turn Right with your hull, engine and radio of choice. Despite what we think today, there are many many products available to assist us in running R/c Boats - ENJOY !!! CHEERS !!! Bob

 

[Mike McKnight]

Oddly enough that is what Mike and I talked about when I asked him about the hull I ordered. The original air trap packed too much air for today's engines so the angle of the airtrap was changed and the break was minimized to eliminate intteruption of airflow. The boat will still have a contiguous air trap, meaning it was not cut at the back of the sponsond like a lot are, but the airflow will be even and dump out the back of the boat between the shoes. There will still be lift all the way through just not as much. I am not a believer in cutting the airtrap completely and making the engine and prop to all the rear lift. That is just inefficient. The horsepower lost having to make lift can be better used for thrust. The AOA I left basic as I can make those changes when needed.

 

[Lennard Cuenco]

Hey Larry K,

Very well said.

That is why I like modeling so much - the ability to build something, throw it a medium - be it water or air and see what happens. If you are curious what the cause and effects are for certain attributes of an airplane or a boat, you can amuse yourself for a lifetime trying something new, evaluating that, and then modifying that premise yet again. When I was a child I modeled with my Father - Gus Johnson. I used scraps of balsa wood to build something and would see if it would fly either free flight, or attached to the end of a string. My Father flew control line speed models from my earliest recollection. As I got older and started to enter contests - the challenges became more detailed. I liked Team race - both with a .29 glow engine and FAI, which used a .15 Cu. In. diesel engine and was limited to 10cc of onboard fuel. I built Rat Racers, Navy Carrier, and many different classes of Free Flight. Loved it !!!

In 1969 or so, my "Big Bad Brother Don" ( I don't have a Brother, so that role was filled with our Friend- Don Pinckert) decide R/C boating would be fun.Here's a pic of his first boat. Gus and I followed. I was home on leave from the Navy in 1970, saw the boats run,and went to Orange Blossom Hobbies in Miami and bought my first boat - a 40 Little Hoss with a K&B dykes ring, rear induction, side exhaust 40. Pic attached.

Don was boating with Jerry Thomas. Jerry built a couple of framed hulls - white glue for assembling wooden framed models was thought to be sufficient - however, it failed miserably. So Jerry started experimenting with different foams. Don and I believe that Jerry was the first one to build a boat with foam an aircraft grade ply - that hull Jerry named "E-99 Long Gone" See pic attached of Don with First D-50, Jerry's Long Gone is on the ground to Don's left.

From this point, Gus and I started building WOF Scale looking hulls. The first of this group was Gus' PAY 'n PAK in 1974 running an OPS 60 Car engine. K&B 40 carb, that he hung an Octura 45 steel flywheel,Kool Clamp, and universal, driving a Dumas 3/16 hardened stainless steel shaft supported by ball bearings in a K&S brass stuffing tube. Roger didn't have plans for the 7325 U-25 yet, so Gus took a lot of pics of the boat from the '73 appearance at the Marine Stadium in Miami, and drew up a set of plans. This was also before there was a 1/8th Scale class, so we raced in E-Hydro with outriggers, full apron hull hull called the Thunderboat/Big Hoss.pic attached.

So, as you can see, it has been a really fun journey for me and many other boaters. I have done this on and off for 40 years now, have meet some really outstanding people along the way, and feel better for having the experience.

Go Fast turn Right with your hull, engine and radio of choice. Despite what we think today, there are many many products available to assist us in running R/c Boats - ENJOY !!! CHEERS !!! Bob

hey guys,

interesting discussion for sure...

couple of thoughts...

Joe W. changing AoA: not the only change being made...other changes were used to offset the decrease in AoA, for example, if the boat is going to set harder set at full/half speed, you could tailor the canoes/airtrap/ride pads to deal with it...

Larry K. rounded vs. flat surface area: used surface shape to tune boats...if its loose, rounded surfaces will help, if the boat is stuck to the water, flat surfaces help...again..go run it, fine tune as needed

Mark S. props: agreed! lifting series vs. x series will help tune the boat as well, btw mark, have you found any 1200, 1500, 1600 series that work for scale?

thx again..

 

[Ray Sametz]

Some interesting reading. http://www.intlwater...0%20weight&st=0 RR