New turn fin setup

[Terry Keeley]

Nice looking piece!

I ran CF fins for 15 years, work great and can be made just about as sharp as aluminum, steel etc. Small dings can be sanded out pondside but I always had a spare just in case. Switched to Ti a couple years ago, a little sharper but heavier as well.

 

[nicholashansen]

^^^ now that is friggin awesome Terry!

This is EXACTLY what I love to see and gets me motivated and passionate about building! Guys who have genuine willingness to learn and experiment, and have intuitive perspective.... In all honesty I really didnt mean to bash or come off so negative in regards to traditionalist methods.... Obviously whats proven and works should not be toyed with. Its when we are completely against expanding this viewpoint to include more options that I get annoyed!

With scale, I see it so much, the difficult fight between scale accuracy vs performance. Clearly the big boats have several key aspects of their design philosophy that is extremely counter-productive in our RC models.... That being said, it blows me away when I see guys, for example, who dont want to use an ML Laser cut kit because of slight changes to the ride surface (which improve ride performance substantially), as they are aiming for a "concourse" level hull design that is reminiscent of the full size hulls to a Tee..... but then I see them using a curved turn fin with a bracket thats perpendicular to the ground.... huh?! isnt that entirely against the goal they just laid out?\

just an observation....

am I right? I mean WTF.... how dare he not be familiar with such sacred tradition !

Guess I was a little annoyed by the implication that if you were an FE guy and frequented OSE you were ignorant. I thought we were passed the notion that FE guys knew nothing. I likely read too much into it.

The most damage I've experienced with any of my boats were due to plane ole' driver error. Some my error. Some others error. I've not injured a boat because I hit debris in the water. I'm sure it's possible. Seems reasonable. Just hasn't happened to me. In fairness though, I've only been racing for 15 or so years and only FE. So I'm kind of a newbie.

I seriously and dumbfounded with the whole remark about OSE, that came out of no where, and even more confusing is the whole "cut the act" comment.... WTF? what act is this and why cutting is it need be ?

When aliens come to earth and they show us new,innovative ideas I sure hope they dont post it on here, because they will go back
home scratching there heads. hehe
I personally have had turn fin damage from hitting a turtle. It will rip a turn right off or damage it beyond repair. I think a kick up would have helped... Maybe
Tim

Sheesh, if they get the treatment that SOME OF US have gotten recently in that kind of situation, Id be HAPPY if thats all they did....

worse, what if they quarantined us or something?!

oh LAWD!

Ah good old IW, someone shows us his new stuff, we oooo and ahhh, then hack him to death..............

ah, not dead yet

was pretty close to not coming back though....

your post is all the laden reassuring and relieving

 

[JimZaremski]

"My way or the highway" runs rampant through many hobbies.

 

[nicholashansen]

True enough, and that doesnt necessarily have to have an negative connotation to it...

what bothers me here is when people feel this way, purely because everyone else feels this way also and that hasnt changed for ______period of time.

As humans we naturally evolve and progress, were curious and competitive. This is completely contradictory to the viewpoint I just mentioned

But enough complaining from me!

im trying to get my current hull ive been working on (i made another thread in regards to it) finished rigging up so I can take it out to testing. Since this bracket is much different in its mounting orientation, im not going to actually use it for a while. Like I mentioned earlier, once ive done some testing with my Accu-tech turn fin that has an adjustable bracket, ill find the sweet spot for that fin and find a way to record or mark that configuration..... then seal up the current holes in the turn fin plate, tap new ones for the newer bracket, and test out this fin!

oh and I actually took about 1/2" of stacked 1.25" x 2", 1/8" thick plywood pieces and laminated them into the non trip behind the right sponson heel, so I could drill and epoxy in some brass inserts for the turnfin buckle rods

just not sure if ill use 4-40 or 2-56.....

 

[Hydro Junkie]

If you're going to use that laminated plywood as a re-enforcing rods base that will actually be taking a load, you don't want to go any smaller than 4-40, 6-32 might even be better, depending on how stout your bracket mounting is on the sponson transom. If you look at the full sized boats, the modern ones use multiple .5" threaded rods of hardened material for the turnbuckles. I haven't seen how the inside of the nontrip is done so I won't comment on that but, when you look at the force applied to the fin and boat structure when going through a corner at full throttle while holding 6700 lbs from sliding sideways, you can be sure some beefing up was done inside the boat

 

[nicholashansen]

yeah its just im not sure if ill be using the actual included threaded rods, or if ill use perhaps something thinner and different connectors. The longer rod is much too long and I certainly need to shorten if it i plan to use it, but if I do use different connectors, ill simply just CA them so they can break apart if needed. But ill be using 8 screws total, 4 on each side, with each rod using 2 screws that are pretty close together, I dont think 6/32 would work but its a possibility, ill try to upload some more pictures momentarily

 

[T.S.Davis]

"My way or the highway" runs rampant through many hobbies.

It's "My way or you're stupid" types that make me crazy.

Another problem that pops up on OSE constantly is a complete disregard of experienced based knowledge. The kick up rudder thing isn't stupid. I just haven't done it. I said maybe I was on borrowed time with ridged fins. More than way to look at all these crazy boats. If you share that kind of experience based knowledge over there you'll likely get someone that will say something to the effect that you're thinking is outdated and therefore invalid. Say what? A guy wins a national championship or two, sets a couple records maybe................. and suddenly out of nowhere his build skills and knowledge are dismissed as old school. Whaaaaat evvvverrrr. Such nonsense.

Guys with little experience............Please do ask a questions. Lots and lots of them. When you get some input from the experienced guys take it to heart. Don't assume you're smarter than the guy that's been there and broke that. Ask more questions so that the experienced guy can explain how they came to the conclusions they have. Most of them will.

Experienced guys.......................don't be jerks when one question leads to another question. New guys need to be convinced. They wont just take your word for anything. Plus it's the freak'n internet. Nobody knows who I am, you are, this one, that one. "Some guy on the internet said..............blah blah blah". Don't assume that because they don't have experience that their ideas are stupid either. This is how we evolved the hobby to begin with. Didn't used to be gas boats or FE boats. Outside of the box thinking translates to new technology.

Someone kick that soap box out from under me please.

 

[Hydro Junkie]

HELL NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! You deserve your time up there with a post like that. It's totally spot on with what's been going on in most of the forums over the past few years. I know I've made comments about this or that and got slammed more than once for doing so by others because I don't have a US-1 under my belt. One good example, in my past, would be a while back when I said something about changing a bottom angle to prevent a boat from getting "flighty". Got told I didn't know what I was talking about yet, one page later, someone else basically said the same thing and was cheered as a hero for fixing the boats problem. Several guys had said "ONLY WAY TO FIX THAT IS TO ADD WEIGHT", to which I disagreed. Ever since, I've refrained more and more from posting answers to questions because "I'm an idiot because I don't have any wins yet".

 

[nicholashansen]

Terry its great and refreshing to see that you have enough intellectuality to go with your experience in that you can be considerate enough of both sides.

But I must say, OSE, imo, isn't a demographic that engages in the banter you describe. I feel as though it can become very easy over time, especially once you are very comfortable and familiar with a certain forum, to have a slightly dysmorphic outlook at some point in time to the individual or group mentality, and thus forget exactly what the (and when I say the, I mean ANY) forum exists for. Discussion and sharing interests with each other is the general jist, and if people are going to be passionate and competitive about their opinion, then thats even better, because anyone whom visists that forum is going to have access to the widest and most reliable experienced information of all kind possible...

I work with computers and its also a big hobby, or perhaps even passion of mine, I also build boutique level custom machines for gamers, programmers and website/software designers, etc. so ive spent a ton of time on all kinds of different forums. For the most part, theres a few different "templates" for forum interfaces and discussion that have minor effects on the overall culture of such. But obviously, the most defining trait for any forum is the people posting on it. OSE has by far been the most educational, open minded and welcoming forum ive ever been on of any kind, and has the highest percentage of people whom are truly passionate about what they enjoy or believe in. The time it took me to progress in my skill for building computers to the level of systems in which im now capable of building was long and full of mistakes and subsequent lessons to say the least. When I decided I wanted to get into scale hydros, i felt a slight nostalgia to when I first was discovering my previous passion in computers, and thus I then pondered the scope of the project I was taking on as my first (or rather pondering what the extent of said scope is, lol). I was wondering if the time from then to when I actually get to take a/my beautiful scale hydroplane to the water was going to be as long an arduous as it was with my other passion.....

Well I can certainly state now that indeed I had no idea what I was getting into at the time and couldnt have fathomed how often I admitted I was way in over my head. I mean, if someone comes on the forum asking what RTR to purchase or what "type" of boat to go with as their first, how many people would recommend hydroplane?? certainly not the majority due to their difficulty. And so now to think if someone came on and said theyve never driven an RC boat in their life and they want to build a 1/8 scale FE hydroplane to race in NAMBA or IMPBA or w.e..... would you have help them in the sense that you have faith your effort will contribute to a finished build?? Thankfully I was able to virtually do just that, and despite it being extremely discouraging and frustrating and long nearly the whole time, it made it that much more fulfilling in the end.

and I honestly have the guys who frequent the hydro section on OSE to thank for that, 100%, as I wouldnt have even come remotely close otherwise. I have a few specific people that come to mind that ive actually saved and bookmarked a few of their PMs and emails to me from my first week there, as it was so touching to see people genuinely reach out to help and quote "see me succeed" because their passionate and want the sport to grow.

Hopefully passion can become more abundant in todays world and not get misinterpreted as something negative

 

[T.S.Davis]

Terry its great and refreshing to see that you have enough intellectuality to go with your experience in that you can be considerate enough of both sides.

I try but fail too.

That soap box rant above was for myself too. I fall into the trap all the time. Some things I do/did/didn't do were due to having tried this that or the other. Like any hobby. Failed, succeeded, or found something that nets no gain for the effort. Then when someone else is heading down some path or another I might share what I ran into only to have to defend it. Ugh. Even the most experienced and wise guys get frustrated when they have to explain the "why" of something.

I once saw a guy at the pond that had bent the ears backward on his prop. A lot. Went like this.....

I said "that's not going to work".

"Why not?" "

"It just.......it's not.......props don't work that way."

He ran it anyway. Outside the box thinking. Prop was ruined. Boat barely moved.

So again, old guys...be patient and try not to be a richard cranium (myself included).

New guys......accept that the dinosaurs might actually know something even if they can't explain how they know it.

 

[teddyd]

Hey guys,

just wanted to post this as I thought some of you may find it interesting. I had this setup custom made by a friend in Germany. The bracket is T6061 aluminum if I remember correctly (EDIT: incorrect, not sure what kind actually), thats been anodized black and has threads tapped for each bolt, aside from the 4 holding the turnbuckle rods. The fin was CNC cut from 1/8" thick carbon fiber and is actually pretty sharp and feels very robust, and its also alot lighter than my other turn fins, despite being a bit bigger (I have an accutech scale turn fin and its about 1/4" taller, longer and wider). The rods are perhaps 10/32 threaded maybe? and the brackets on each end feel like anodized aluminum too I believe, but clearly I know alot less about the rods. One bracket is shorter and threaded to attach to the turn fin, the other side the holes are simply counter sunk.

Ill try to get a picture of it mounted in position! Excited for a turn fin truly scale in appearence

Ill need to either epoxy and laminate a piece of plywood into the side of the hull, and then use some 4-40 brass inserts, or just use some aluminum. Not sure yet...

I think it's a beautiful fin and bracket, I would have no problem at all running that setup on my scales !

 

[teddyd]

It's crazy how in this sport we have people that will invest their time, money and effort only to be disrespected for it. let's respect each other opinions and efforts even if you don't agree with it and I'll guarantee that we'll will have much more fun racing!

 

[T.S.Davis]

I'm sorry but Teddy's avatar saying "Beginner Boater" cracks me up. Beginner he ain't.

I'm easily amused. Sorry.

 

[Tom Kelly]

He doesn't post very often because of all the negativity. He does, however, have a lot to say.

 

[Rob Betke]

Teddy's awesome. Plan and simple.

 

[nicholashansen]

Terry its great and refreshing to see that you have enough intellectuality to go with your experience in that you can be considerate enough of both sides.

I try but fail too.

That soap box rant above was for myself too. I fall into the trap all the time. Some things I do/did/didn't do were due to having tried this that or the other. Like any hobby. Failed, succeeded, or found something that nets no gain for the effort. Then when someone else is heading down some path or another I might share what I ran into only to have to defend it. Ugh. Even the most experienced and wise guys get frustrated when they have to explain the "why" of something.

I once saw a guy at the pond that had bent the ears backward on his prop. A lot. Went like this.....

I said "that's not going to work".

"Why not?" "

"It just.......it's not.......props don't work that way."

He ran it anyway. Outside the box thinking. Prop was ruined. Boat barely moved.

So again, old guys...be patient and try not to be a richard cranium (myself included).

New guys......accept that the dinosaurs might actually know something even if they can't explain how they know it.

man something that happened today that is a perfect example of your last word there.....

Ive had extra time off of work this week and ive been scrambling trying to get as much work done on the boat(s) as possible, while trying to simultaneously decide what may be best for a certain aspect of the build, and then trying to figure out exactly what I need in materials and components, etc. to order ASAP so its shipped out the same day, battling my impatience vs convenience vs efficiency vs ideal....... ETC. ETC.

...... and then take my HUGE GAP in enthusiasm vs raw experience and skills

I been sort of driving myself a little over the edge all of the sudden!! However, it wasn't until I suddenly was just simply waiting for some epoxy to dry that I randomly decided to go back and read some emails from last year I shared with a fellow scale boater who was generous and awesome enough to lend me a personal hand with my first build..... that I got to the end of the first email from him I just so happened to click, which read:

....... just slow down a bit, learn to walk away for abit and usually the answer comes along, don't force it

LOL how about that??

My eyes bugged out for a second, I paused and was thinking to myself "wow, about 15 seconds of this guys experience and how much benefit in return?? Dude.... get off your friggin high horse and get a load of this wisdom!!"

It doesnt matter if your Stephen, Newton Isaac, Einstein Hawking!! Only an experienced fellow would have known to tell me that..... and thats because they have BEEN THERE, and DONE THAT, and MADE YOUR MISTAKES FOR YOU, and then repeated that cycle 5 more times!!

So Im going to do myself a favor to the best of my ability and try to be as best a listener and open minded as possible haha

.... and I havnt even remotely tapped into actual racing yet. Its been a couple years almost and I still feel like building is long uphill climb toward the top!

Ill be sure to seek you out Terry when that time comes.........

if you dont mind. hehe

Hey guys,

just wanted to post this as I thought some of you may find it interesting. I had this setup custom made by a friend in Germany. The bracket is T6061 aluminum if I remember correctly (EDIT: incorrect, not sure what kind actually), thats been anodized black and has threads tapped for each bolt, aside from the 4 holding the turnbuckle rods. The fin was CNC cut from 1/8" thick carbon fiber and is actually pretty sharp and feels very robust, and its also alot lighter than my other turn fins, despite being a bit bigger (I have an accutech scale turn fin and its about 1/4" taller, longer and wider). The rods are perhaps 10/32 threaded maybe? and the brackets on each end feel like anodized aluminum too I believe, but clearly I know alot less about the rods. One bracket is shorter and threaded to attach to the turn fin, the other side the holes are simply counter sunk.

Ill try to get a picture of it mounted in position! Excited for a turn fin truly scale in appearence

Ill need to either epoxy and laminate a piece of plywood into the side of the hull, and then use some 4-40 brass inserts, or just use some aluminum. Not sure yet...

I think it's a beautiful fin and bracket, I would have no problem at all running that setup on my scales !

Thanks! I pretty much seeked this entire thing out because ive always just been a tad bit infatuated with turn fin setups.....

I mean most scale hardware ive seen in general imo, is never really very scale accurate at all, not that it really matters, but for some reason... With the turn fins, I just always felt like its a part of a hydroplane that makes a cool conversation piece, and they look so industrial, beastly and badass in real life! Its just leaves me a little discontent when I have to have a more "typical" standard turn fin.... if you catch my drift

 

[Hydro Junkie]

"I mean most scale hardware ive seen in general imo, is never really very scale accurate at all, not that it really matters, but for some reason... With the turn fins, I just always felt like its a part of a hydroplane that makes a cool conversation piece, and they look so industrial, beastly and badass in real life! Its just leaves me a little discontent when I have to have a more "typical" standard turn fin.... if you catch my drift

"

And that, sir, is where the scale vs functional question comes in. When you look at the full sized boats, they are using hardware that has been under development for almost 70 years. What has been developed over that time works very well but is also being "tweeked" to make it better. Now, on a scale boat, the hardware designs that work so well on a full sized boat won't work since, as some have said, water doesn't scale down to match the boat. Therefore, a skid fin patterned after that on a full sized boat won't hold the model in a turn because it can't grab enough water to do so. The saying "Form follows function" applies in this case. A nonscale fin is almost required if you want your boat to turn well enough to be able to hold a corner while racing. If you want to have a "WOW!!!" type of fin and bracket, you need to fabricate one that can be installed for between race days only for show

 

[nicholashansen]

Well, I feel like if we were to be 100% strictest in the rhetorical sense, we say "scale" as in its literally supposed to be the real boat "scaled down" to ....... in this case, 1/8th of the real thing.

Now like you said, everyone is going to have a preference of how far in either direction they want to proceed toward aesthetics or performance.... Knowing that, aesthetics arent 100% contradictory to or adversely effective toward performance, they are all but virtually unrelated in the purest sense.... Now once you enter our world (the scale hydro world where the boats are all one of a kind in design/appearence AND perhaps the fastest kind as well......) compromise or choosing between itself is completely up to the builder, and of course there will be points in which one goal is going to become more important than the other


Now, taking into the whole rhetoric of say, shrinking a full size hydroplane the key characteristic difference at this level, (and we all know, as most rulebooks state, the goal is to imitate the full size boat races simply speaking) is the drastic change in power to weight ratio. Aside from that , and maybe radio control vs manual direct, what else changes? The science and embodiment of physics and propulsion are still the same as ever, bound by the rules of nature. Now if you COMPLETELY MIMIC 100% the full size boat in your scale from hardware, the bottom of the hull, etc. the model is still going to perform like a hydroplane (subjective, i know).... Now whether its going to perform like an IMPBA/NAMBA or any race level 1/8 scale model is a whole other thing in itself.... But to specifically steer clear of mirroring the design of the full size boats with your model in ANY ASPECT, in my opinion, is just wrong. I personally would never have two pieces of the same type of hardware just to divide them for irrespective purposes.

Im sure if we could theoretically take every single concourse winning hull thats existed, very few, if any at all, would be suffering highly as a result of being very resemblance to the full size boats

Just my opinion though

This is all why I love this group of RC the best though

You have the intellectual and engineering spirit of the racers and limit pushers, while combining the patience, skill, craft and passion of the detailed "scale" modelers !

EDIT: Oh, I also forgot to mention.... I noticed curved skid fins dont really throw up a rooster tail the way a large, sharp straight fin does!

 

[T.S.Davis]

".... and I havnt even remotely tapped into actual racing yet. Its been a couple years almost and I still feel like building is long uphill climb toward the top!

Ill be sure to seek you out Terry when that time comes........."

Bring it! In fact, anybody that just reads forums but doesn't post, doesn't race, whatever. I urge you to go out and race. You've already taken an interest in the hobby by reading these forums. Imagine going to a place where everyone there is an rc boat hobbiest fool! It's like disease. Once you have it there are no meds to help you. haha RC boaters are 99% great people regardless of fuel source. There is always that 1 in a 100 that will rub you wrong but I've met so few people in RC boating that made me thing.......well this sucks. Just doesn't happen. I don't care where you go. So find a race you can drive to and get there. Don't be intimidated either. Someone there will help you every inch of the way if you need it. Tell the guys at check in that you're brand new and might need some guidance. I guarantee you'll get the help.

On the fins and wisdom thing. Mark Webber showed up to one of our club races. Brought the Gold Cup with him. That was way cool BTW. He noticed right away the turn fins on our sporties. He asked, "What's with the hooked fins?" Nobody had a definitive answer for him. Why DO I do it that way? I don't know. Likely because a thousand guys before me did it and passed the data on to the masses. Someone shared their wisdom. If I had been an a$$ to him after would he share anything else?

 

[Rick Reisinger]

Ah good old IW, someone shows us his new stuff, we oooo and ahhh, then hack him to death..............

... and someone recently said on Jim's Boat Dock that there is no drama on IW.

Lol

That was me Mr Joe .... LOL