NAMBA PropWash for March 2008

[T.S.Davis]

"and if it was Nitro in FE's position ... how would you feel?"

Jim, I pointed this out once before. The ghost writer from D1 took it as a threat.

Brian, you forgot the current FE Chairman. I think I still hold a record, I race, I win some of them. I also helped put together the largest FE race in NAMBA history. 522 boats. I feel like I'm composing my resume. You would think that endorsement by the FE Chair would carry some weight but apparently not.

That proposal had input from all over the place. Some of us wanted a more agressive proposal but we knew we would be asking too much and watered it down. That's why the N1 motors went away. We realized the impact on some would be too great so we decided to leave it alone.

I understand that some are anti-length limits in any racing. Fear of a trend or what ever. But it wasn't that long ago that FE had length limits. Short memories.

So here we've got a proposal that is a concoction from the thinking from multiple world record holders, a handfull of very active clubs from multiple districts that is endorsed by the FE Chairman. Now..... there is a hint that nitro racers might/maybe/could/possibly (I didn't say will) vote against it based on the opinions of some nitro racers that occasionally run some FE and a district that happens to have a "district" point series.

yikes... I can understand why some are irritated? Makes sense. I'm all for opinions. Not everyone agrees. That's perfectly fine. In fact, guys that are opposed should absolutely vote against it. That's how it's supposed to work. That's THE point. But it sure would be slick if FE could decide it's own fate. I know, that's not how the voting works.

 

[eddieh]

Well I am from district 1, and No, I do not have any great distinctions, I am not a national champ, I am not a high point’s winner, but I am an electric racer, I do race in sanctioned events in my district and I have even traveled outside my district (racing unsuccessfully but still having fun) and as I said I am from district 1. And as a matter of fact, for the record I am PROUD to be from district 1!

The article from district 1 comes from concerns from a lot of people, Most who are racing electric, have raced electric, or who have raced against electric in one of the open classes (nitro/gas/electric), and others who have tremendous experience in racing in general. So do not suppose it comes from ONLY from the nitro and Gas Racers, In District 1 we discuss issues as one group regardless of power source. We Race together so this makes sense to us. Like it or not we are ONE organization.

We do not have the exclusive on knowledgeable racers, this much is true, but we do have Very Knowledgeable FE Racers, and yes some of them happen to also be national champions many times over, their opinion is just as valid and -we should all feel free to voice our opinions, same as anyone.

Not every racer spends their time surfing the forums, some are more interested in working on their setups, families, trying to earn a living, or frankly are turned off with endless bickering and I suppose some do just the opposite, spend all their time on the forums. So what is bantered back and forth is only a snap shot, not the whole picture.

The items mentioned in the article are legitimate concerns of ours, we voiced our concerns and our positions just as the district who proposed the vote did. If you do not like what either position is, then vote accordingly. But it is important that EVERYBODY votes.

Ok where is that “Done” sign…?

Ahh here it is “DONE”

 

[Rokieboater]

... You speak as though-if your not running an F/E boat NOW- you dont count- THINK AGAIN !!!!!!

Andy-This is a good point.

We all know how the NAMBA voting structure is set up. You pay your dues, you get to vote. Pretty simple.

And NAMBA FE members have abided by these rules. Even with all the drama last year about the LiPo proposal and some fear of "outside influence" messing with the vote, it passed by an overwhelming margin. I forget the specifics but I think it had 90% approval (if anyone has specifics, please share) with something like 87 total votes cast. A pretty pathetic number, really, considering the online time we spent on that thing.

But, it was good for FE. Maybe not perfect, but I bet even Dist 1 would agree that it was good for FE. In fact, they don't want to change it, so I count that as an act of acceptance. I'm not sure why they feel they need to be "Silent no more...", they seem to enjoy the current set of NAMBA FE rules that have endured quite a few revisions in this decade.

The one thing, however, all NAMBA members need to keep in mind is the disproportionate number of members between Nitro, Gas and FE. NAMBA FE is only 110 +/- members strong. Wayyy smaller than the gas/nitro NAMBA membership, which puts us on defense when those outside of FE start to blow our house down. I'm not referring to feedback and opinions...We're all for that. I'm referring to a blatant attack and rally of votes from outside of FE to shoot this thing down.

So, what do we do?? Sit back and take it because Nitro/Gas members may be running FE in the future?? I'm not going to pose a question regarding Dist 1's plan of attack because I can figure that one out on my own.

I guess we should wait until the votes are cast to ask that question..but I'll ask it anyway because I'm getting the feeling that FE will always be a target for this type of situation soley because we are the smaller of the Nitro/Gas/FE groups and some question our ability to fine tune our racing program.

It is agreed (excluding Dist 1) that FE is missing something in the rules. Some sort of limit. Power, length, whatever. A solid and well established group of FE Racers got together well over a year ago to hammer this thing out. We brain stormed, we practiced, we tested it and we raced it. A textbook example of how this process should go. We feel we came up with something good. Very good. We researched as many fellow FE NAMBA members and the basics of this proposal was striking a chord with them. A majority of them. It's already adopted in many FE NAMBA districts.

We also feel this proposal will put an end or severly reduce future proposals focused on the FE power system.

However, there's a good chance we'll never know how NAMBA FE members voted on this proposal. That would be a problem. A big problem. Whatever happens, I just want to know where my fellow FE'rs stood on this thing.

That is an excellent post. I an not a NAMBA member (for percisely the reasons outlined in this post)... what has really disturbed me about this whole ordeal is not the proposals or that people have differing views on proposals ... it is that racers outside of the class effected by the proposal seem interested in taking the power away from actual FE racers. If the shoe was on the other foot, and it was Nitro in FE's position ... how would you feel?

jimi911, Can you point to any issue in Namba where a group/class has destroyed or blocked a proposal from passing for a different group/class of boaters? I don't quite understand your comment of "I an not a NAMBA member (for percisely the reasons outlined in this post)". The people in the posts above are expressing concerns and differences. Namba as whole wishes to promote Model Boating not destroy it. There is no reason to bash NAMBA because a vote on rule proposals is forthcoming. I seriously doubt that the NITRO & GAS masses will even vote on the FE proposal. Did you ever think that some in this post are looking for sympathy so there proposal could get voted in? Heck I guess it worked because here you are, not a member and putting your two cents in on how people should conduct themselves.

Robert

 

[Grimracer]

an equally large group, limit performance by specifying power plants for hulls with set sizes. I think this is a better, but more difficult approach. It is what electric racers in other parts of the world are trying to do.

they do that because its a spec class. a bigger version of LSH

are you saying because other country's are trying to do it different way then us that we are wrong even though we have been running them for over 4 years in heat racing? Its a pretty bold stance if thats the case

I did not read it that way at all? :blink:

Grim

 

[jimi911]

jimi911, Can you point to any issue in Namba where a group/class has destroyed or blocked a proposal from passing for a different group/class of boaters? I don't quite understand your comment of "I an not a NAMBA member (for percisely the reasons outlined in this post)". The people in the posts above are expressing concerns and differences. Namba as whole wishes to promote Model Boating not destroy it. There is no reason to bash NAMBA because a vote on rule proposals is forthcoming. I seriously doubt that the NITRO & GAS masses will even vote on the FE proposal. Did you ever think that some in this post are looking for sympathy so there proposal could get voted in? Heck I guess it worked because here you are, not a member and putting your two cents in on how people should conduct themselves.

Robert

I hope you are right and the nitro folks stay out of this proposal. However, you also need to understand that what has been going on behind closed doors with respect to this proposal and the voting is suspect in a big way. I respect your views and at face value (if all nitro racers believed as you did) there would have no reason to be concerned. Judging by your post you would follow that general code of ethics among racers and not involve yourself in a matter that has no impact on your racing. However, there seem to be other members who don't share your common sense. I mean you no disrespect ... nor others that feel the same as you.

I personally don't care what happens with the voting on this. If it goes for or against it has little impact on me. I just show up with bigger boats in MI. However, I think it is concerning and worth pointing out when we hear nitro people trying to tell FE people how to run their class and taking an active role in a proposal that does not effect them.

If the vote goes sour and does not reflect the actual view of the FE membership of NAMBA there is a problem. It is the prospect of this happening that is what is making some angry. If this happens NAMBA stops promoting FE model boat racing and starts dictating FE model boat racing.

My 2 cents is given because I am a FE racer and I want it to have success. I race IMPBA ... happily. However, the success of FE is tied to both the NAMBA and IMPBA organizations (at a club level) like it or not. I just want FE interests, whatever they may be, to be respresented. If they are not than it is my side of the hobby that stands to loose.

 

[TRUCKPULL]

I seriously doubt that the NITRO & GAS masses will even vote on the FE proposal. Robert

Hello Robert

Then tell me why the District 1 ditrector has E-Mailed all the NAMBA Members Nitro and Gas in

District 1, Telling them to vote the FE proposal down.

These are blind votes.

Most people do not understand the type of power that FE boats can have.

We have NO other means that can be tecked at this time or can be run for more then a year

without changing the rules again. (bateries, motors, and ESC's are changing every 2 months)

We had MAX length limits in FE for years, and now all of a sudden they will be the end of FE.

I remember the same arguments about Brushless and then Lipo's, now MAX Length Limits

which we had before.

Here is an example on cost.

N2 - Mono

26" No step

7L - Motor

CC120 - ESC

2S2P - 4350

About -$600.00

N2 - Mono

36" - Delta

1527 NEU Motor

250AMP - ECS

2S2P - 6000

About - $1500.00

Both boats run the same speed, but the 26" boat can not run in the hole left in the water

from the 36" boat.

You do not get this problem in Nitro or Gas classes, because you do not have that much difference in

HP within the class.

You can only put so much power into a MAX length hull and finish races that are 1 mile long.

Larry

 

[brooks93]

Mike how do you see it then?

I am confused on why he thinks that way considering the other large group in his district that he references is not even a Namba club.

isn't the director for the district suppose to repersent what his districts supports? sounds like he is not supporting the FE part of his district and is support other views from outside his district. He has a right to his opinion I know but, not when he is speaking for the district with his opinion.

This is how I am seeing it and I hope that is wrong but, Lohring can you clearify it for me if you wish.

 

[TRUCKPULL]

I would like to know why the District 1 ditrector has E-Mailed all the NAMBA Members Nitro and Gas in

District 1, Telling them to vote the FE proposal down.

These are blind votes.

Most people do not understand the type of power that FE boats can have.

We have NO other means that can be tecked at this time or can be run for more then a year

without changing the rules again. (bateries, motors, and ESC's are changing every 2 months)

We had MAX length limits in FE for years, and now all of a sudden they will be the end of FE.

I remember the same arguments about Brushless and then Lipo's, now MAX Length Limits

which we had before.

Here is an example on cost.

N2 - Mono

26" No step

7L - Motor

CC120 - ESC

2S2P - 4350

About -$600.00

N2 - Mono

36" - Delta

1527 NEU Motor

250AMP - ECS

2S2P - 6000

About - $1500.00

Both boats run the same speed, but the 26" boat can not run in the hole left in the water

from the 36" boat.

You do not get this problem in Nitro or Gas classes, because you do not have that much difference in

HP within the class.

You can only put so much power into a MAX length hull and finish races that are 1 mile long.

Larry

 

[Grimracer]

I do have to ask.. Do you some of you REALY feel the NAMBA nitro and gas guys are trying to sabotage NAMBA FE racing.. This is kind of what Im reading? Let me know if that is a wrong thought based on the thread.

If my suspensions are right…

That is NUTS.... Completely insane.. Makes NO sense to me at all.. WHY? Because its just not true… come-on men..

WHY would they do that? Insert a “very good” reason here --------------.

Make sure you re-read your answer the next day before you click the POST button. Know what I mean?

Keep the faith NAMBA racers

Hope to race with more of you in the future, be it FE, Nitro or GAS…

Grimracer

 

[TRUCKPULL]

Mark

This is a fact.

I would like to know why the District 1 ditrector has E-Mailed all the NAMBA Members Nitro and Gas in

District 1, Telling them to vote the FE proposal down.

These are blind votes.

Larry

 

[brooks93]

you mean this one. I removed the sending list and the people that wrote it.

Re: FE motionsGuys,

>

> As you may have heard......a small crowd is trying to bring some

> new electric rules into NAMBA that are deemed to be "bad". They

> are pushing them hard.

>

> Our resident district 1 electric gurus, have confirmed that

> these rule proposals are NOT GOOD for the future.

>

> EVEN IF YOU ARE NOT AN ELECTRIC RACER......YOU SHOULD VOTE ON

> ALL RULE PROPOSALS WHEN THEY ARE PRESENTED TO

> YOU.........AND.........reading the comments below.......we

> would hope you vote NO.

>

> By not participating now.....you will see more SMALL groups in

> the future...lobby for GAS and NITRO rule changes......preying

> on the fact that no one bothers to vote, and they will get their

> IMPBA type rules passed, by the fact that they convince say 25

> peeps to vote, and we only muster up like 12.

>

> So please VOTE.......and vote NO on these FE rules you will see

> coming to you shortly.

>

> READ.......... BELOW.

>

> For More details.....please contact: NAME AND EMAIL REMOVED

>

> Thanks,

> NAMES REMOVED

email was sent from a person in a leadership role in the district

 

[T.S.Davis]

"I seriously doubt that the NITRO & GAS masses will even vote on the FE proposal."

I really think that Robert is right. That's why I said might/maybe/possibly.

Probably the best thing to do is let it go and see what happens. The LiPo vote from last year was in my opinion the most controversial proposal in FE history. That passed and the vote counts were not very high. That makes me think that it was likely voted on primarily by FE folks. If this one fails and we see massive vote numbers I'll have to wonder if we got out politicked.

 

[brooks93]

Mike,

we all hope this doesn't happen. I don't care if it fails or pass's as long as its FE votes

if there are more then 120 votes after the votes are counted we will all know the answer to your question.

 

[DPeterson]

WOW

District 1 is soliciting votes from nitro racers to further their interest?

The District 8 Director pushes a total opposite position than what the entire electric racers in his district desire?

And now I see that the NAMBA management allows unauthored rebuttles to a rule proposal to be published in the Propwash? Has this ever happened before?

Sorry boys. I can no longer deal with this pathetic and unprofessional organization. My NAMBA numbers are coming off my boats tonight!

Doug Peterson

 

[T.S.Davis]

Dang it Doug. Don't condemn the whole organization because you don't like the way a few do their thing. Those that would solicit help from the the fuel guys probably don't like how we got this proposal together either. If we did it the traditional way we'd still be running NiMh. Change scares the crap out of people. Sometimes people react poorly..... maybe I should just say some react differently. Different than I might.

Can we just let the votes come in before you decide the whole train is off the track? Please?

 

[Grimracer]

Dudes,

I got a phone call that helped clear up some stuff..

Having said this NOW can you seen the danger in starting this post? Hell i did not know the half of it and was not one of the "guys in the know"

Lets let this one die.. or better yet start to publicly lobby for what you want. Do it right.. get a high vote turn out and let the FE racers be heard.

Grim

 

[Dan Chase]

To much change to fast is not healthy for any sport. I oppose the hull restrictions because I can't see racing grossly overpowered small hulls. Number one, it's a safety issue IMO, number two it makes hulls obsolete built just last year that were legal. Before someone jumps on me and says I have not tried it, I have run overpowered small hulls before. right after the LiPo proposal passed, that's all I had to run and the result was, I lost one hull to the bottom of Kaiser Cove.

Joerg warned about running 2p LiPo's, the man that has gone faster then any other model boater in history. I warned about 2p LiPo's as did many other F/E racers, many that have now left the sport. Doubling the mah allowed doubling the amp draw and in effect doubling the power. It was a bad choice then for F/E and now the same people are trying to put a bandaid on it to fix the power problem. the same people that support the Hull restrictions are the same people that never gave the F/E racer a choice to run LiPo's unparalleled, it was 2 packs paralleled or unlimited paralleling or you had to vote no for LiPo, those were the choices on the proposal. They accused myself and Joerg and many other F/E racers of fantasy setup's and now they are saying that without hull restrictions people will be running 1527's in 36" N2 mono's???

Is there a silent group out there? Yes, you bet there is, just look at this thread, it's the same dozen people will line up and take pot shots at anyone that opposes their view of F/E's future, just go back and read this thread, or search another thread, it's the rhetoric and ridicule over and over. They beat the dog until the dog leaves and then they give the dogs point of view.

The fact is they were wrong that racers would not use the extra mah allowed by paralleling their LiPo's to increase their amp draw and now they are wrong about making hull length restrictions to tame the power available. Can any racer, nitro, gas or electric honestly tell me that if they could have more power, they would choose not to use it because their hull couldn't handle it?

 

[Andy Greene]

To much change to fast is not healthy for any sport. I oppose the hull restrictions because I can't see racing grossly overpowered small hulls. Number one, it's a safety issue IMO, number two it makes hulls obsolete built just last year that were legal. Before someone jumps on me and says I have not tried it, I have run overpowered small hulls before. right after the LiPo proposal passed, that's all I had to run and the result was, I lost one hull to the bottom of Kaiser Cove.
Joerg warned about running 2p LiPo's, the man that has gone faster then any other model boater in history. I warned about 2p LiPo's as did many other F/E racers, many that have now left the sport. Doubling the mah allowed doubling the amp draw and in effect doubling the power. It was a bad choice then for F/E and now the same people are trying to put a bandaid on it to fix the power problem. the same people that support the Hull restrictions are the same people that never gave the F/E racer a choice to run LiPo's unparalleled, it was 2 packs paralleled or unlimited paralleling or you had to vote no for LiPo, those were the choices on the proposal. They accused myself and Joerg and many other F/E racers of fantasy setup's and now they are saying that without hull restrictions people will be running 1527's in 36" N2 mono's???

Is there a silent group out there? Yes, you bet there is, just look at this thread, it's the same dozen people will line up and take pot shots at anyone that opposes their view of F/E's future, just go back and read this thread, or search another thread, it's the rhetoric and ridicule over and over. They beat the dog until the dog leaves and then they give the dogs point of view.

The fact is they were wrong that racers would not use the extra mah allowed by paralleling their LiPo's to increase their amp draw and now they are wrong about making hull length restrictions to tame the power available. Can any racer, nitro, gas or electric honestly tell me that if they could have more power, they would choose not to use it because their hull couldn't handle it?

AMEN-

Thanks Dan ........

Well said.

Better put the g-suit on, you know how this crowd is h34r: -LOL,

Damn, you used the J-WORD, better make it 2 - h34r: h34r: he certainly knows nothing about this stuff either- good thing he doesnt race nitro too :huh:

 

[brooks93]

Dan if this is the case then FE'ers will vote it down. Lipo was passed by FE'ers

I will say it again I don't care if it pass's or fail. (I really don't) as long as its FE that makes the decision and not nitro and gas. only about 110 to 120 guys in namba that run FE. So Mike it wouldn't matter if 80% voted for it or not is 2% of the gas and nitro guys put no.

I am not attacking anyone I just want to see a fair shack. ie FE decides its future

 

[Andy Greene]

Dan if this is the case then FE'ers will vote it down. Lipo was passed by FE'ers
I will say it again I don't care if it pass's or fail. (I really don't) as long as its FE that makes the decision and not nitro and gas. only about 110 to 120 guys in namba that run FE. So Mike it wouldn't matter if 80% voted for it or not is 2% of the gas and nitro guys put no.

I am not attacking anyone I just want to see a fair shack. ie FE decides its future

Kelly, have you EVER voted for a rule that was F/E only ?? Or have you also voted on rules that pertained to NAMBA as a whole? You guys seem to like slapping the faces of nitro and gas racers......