NAMBA lipo rules

[Mike McKnight]

Now as far as getting the cells wet.... I've heard that too but I haven't heard how that actually causes a failure. I will tell you this that I have seen a guy with a foamie plane doing tail dips over water and goofed and the plane dropped in the water and he got it back dried it off and flew it again. After one ignites water can be a problem because the oxygen in the water is converted to an oxidizer and can make the fire flash violently.

I suppose my biggest concern is collateral damage. Meaning having one of these cells getting something else going. I mentioned the tree that caught earlier, someone else mentioned a van that was heavily damaged. Sure I've seen other battery types fail but they simply melt and the heat melts a car or something it was in. But these things literally ignite.

I got a PM from someone accusing me of trying to protect the guys that can't afford these cells and can't be competitive if they are approved. Why would I do that? I don't race an FE, I'm not a distributor or dealer. So I'm on the outside on that issue so I can give an unbiased opinion based upon my education and experience. What I do have a vested interest in is protecting boating regardless of it being NAMBA or IMPBA or whatever affiliation you have. All it would take is one catastrophic incident to really screw us up. I'll use this as an example.....say you are racing at a pond where you are in an urban area but the closest structures are half a mile or so away. There's not much around the pond except grass and weeds. You have a cell and/or a charger ignite and you pit area is close to the grass. It is too hot for you to handle and you can't get it into a bucket or grab you extinguisher. The grass is dry and it gets going and there's a slight breeze that day. That fire suddenly takes off and is approaching a sub-division 1/2 a mile away. Trust me in CA we are very experienced in grass and wild land fires and stranger stuff than that scenario has happened. I could go further but I don't think I need to.

 

[lohring]

Let's put this safety issue in perspective. I bet all of you carry around a cell phone and don't think anything about plugging it into a charger in either your house or car. You can drop it in the lake, dry it out and it might still work despite the warning to avoid getting it wet. This phone contains a lithium polymer cell. A 10000 mah, 40 volt lipo pack stores about 1365 BTU of energy. That is about the same as 158 GRAMS of gasoline, about 1 1/2 fluid ounce. Why aren't you arguing that we should outlaw gasoline powered boats? Why do I continuously need to warn people about smoking around gasoline? Why have I used my fire extinguisher to actually put out a fire in a gasoline powered boat?

Used properly, lithium polymer batteries are a very widely tested, safe technology. When there is an accident involving one, it makes news. When a car gasoline tank ignites, it isn't news, but it's a lot more spectacular. Both are rare. There are safety issues anytime large amounts of easily released energy is stored. Don't lose perspective over fear of the unknown and familiarity with the truly dangerous.

Lohring Miller

 

[brooks93]

the reason it is bad to get a lipo pack wet is because lipo packs have alum. tabs. alum and water plus electricity means corrosion. I have raced lipos for 3 years in FE. I was probably one of the first to start pushing them to see what happened. I have got them wet and as long as you dry them right away and hit the tabs with something like WD40 they are fine. If you leave them sit damp the tabs will erode and the pack is no good. I have done that too.

I have never had a fire but, I have had cells get puffy be it my fault or a unbalanced cell. They are safer then you are lead to believe if you no the risk and make a effort to be safe with them.

I was also the one that blew one up on purpose (the one paul is referring too) it was a 2s2p 5000mah pack. I hooked it up to a NIMH charger and charged the lipo pack at 12 AMPS when it should of been charged at 5 amps max. the pack was half charged when we started and it charged up to 7320 mah put back in. More then double of what it should of took. The NIMH charger also peaked and stopped charging 7 times. I had to start again. It took 45 mins for the pack to flame up. It was in a lipo sack and all the flame was kept inside of the pack. alot of smoke came out but, that was it. It was on fire for about 4 or 5 seconds then it was done

 

[Don Ferrette]

Let's put this safety issue in perspective. I bet all of you carry around a cell phone and don't think anything about plugging it into a charger in either your house or car. You can drop it in the lake, dry it out and it might still work despite the warning to avoid getting it wet. This phone contains a lithium polymer cell.... <snip>

Cell phones are using li-ion packs with a typical (most popular) 3.6 volt rating. You people need to stop comparing hi output li-po packs for boats that are repeatedly stressed to near maximum to toys & cell phones. Just encompass some smart, common sense safety guidelines & requirements (like that $30 battery bunker) & move on. B)

Oh and for the record it was over nine million batteries that Dell, Sony & Apple have recalled after a brand new Dell laptop suddenly burst into flames at a conference in Osaka, Japan in June '06. This is the largest ever recall in consumer electronics history. h34r:

 

[brooks93]

Don I have went back to look at the recall stuff yet but I thought the cells recalled where all li-ion.

 

[Don Ferrette]

Don I have went back to look at the recall stuff yet but I thought the cells recalled where all li-ion.

Yes you are correct, I was just correcting the quote. Like I said, just institute some solid safelty guidelines/requirements & go with it.

 

[Andrewg]

Which of the guys worried about Lipo have raced with it as a power supply in an rc boat?

There are a lot of what ifs being put forward.

Lipo is not as volatile or explosive as liquid fuel and is easier to handle. 25C lipo is far more tolerant of racing use than Nickel.

If Lipo burns, it does so with a visible flame and does not explode (unlike the potential with metal can Nickel, petrol and alcohol). It has excellent primary safety ie you can smoke while standing over it.

Like other commonly used fuels Lipo needs simple handling procedures to make it safe. Ancilliaries like lipo chargers chargers, balancers and esc's. Just as appropriate container materials and forms prevent problemns with fuel these prevent over charging and discharge of lipo which can lead to problems.

When you drop or overcharge a lipo and it puffs - discharge it and bin it.

The, 15/20C and 25/50C, Lipo I am using is very easy to handle, very reliable and much less prone to failure than NiMH.

Are you able to follow a simple set of management procedures?

Are you wiling to buy Lipo specific support equipment?

If so, you will find like gas and alcohol/nitro it is easily handled, kept safe and the power provided for models is astounding and low maintenance and low cost.

If you would not smoke of an open can of gasoline you can get the lipo safety down easy.

 

[Kris Flynn]

This smoking over petrol and Nitro argument is crap, i see MANY nitro and gas guys with a ciggy hanging out the side of thier mouth while filling up boats...I never seen anything bad happen :blink:

BTW I am dizzy from all the circles

 

[brooks93]

This smoking over petrol and Nitro argument is crap, i see MANY nitro and gas guys with a ciggy hanging out the side of thier mouth while filling up boats...I never seen anything bad happen :blink:
BTW I am dizzy from all the circles

and I have never seen a lipo fire in a boat either. doesn't mean it can't happen.

I would much rather lose a boat then my face. some may disagree with me on that though.. LOL

 

[Andrewg]

Kris

Thanks for pointing out the semantic hole in my argument. It underlines exactly what I was saying.

RC competitors use systems to handle substances which are extremely volatile and explosive; far more so than Lipo; and they accept that procedures and equipment are needed to reduce those risks. Lipo is the same. If the conventions of safe practice are followed it is very safe.

However I cannot think of a motor sport that encourages or advocates smoking around fuel, especially while refuelling.

 

[Paul Pachmayer]

Hi Don,

ou people need to stop comparing hi output li-po packs for boats that are repeatedly stressed to near maximum to toys & cell phones

You know, I don't mind your concerned about safety, I am too. But please, please, please talk about what you know too be true not what you think or heard to be true. We do not stress these packs to near maximum, not even close. When I pull my lipo cells out of my open class 130 amp eating monster the cells are around 100 degrees. Compare that with NIMH cells that would be pushed to their max and come out of the boat at 180 degrees plus, I have pushed them hard enough to see well over 200 degrees.

And I'll tell you what, I would be much more concerned about my next door neighbors kid getting a new RTR lipo powered foamie from Walmart (they sell them) and crashing it causing a damaged cell to ignite and burn down the neighborhood than I ever would a hobbiest with a lipo powered boat.

Paul.

 

[Don Ferrette]

Hi Don,

ou people need to stop comparing hi output li-po packs for boats that are repeatedly stressed to near maximum to toys & cell phones

You know, I don't mind your concerned about safety, I am too. But please, please, please talk about what you know too be true not what you think or heard to be true. We do not stress these packs to near maximum, not even close. When I pull my lipo cells out of my open class 130 amp eating monster the cells are around 100 degrees. Compare that with NIMH cells that would be pushed to their max and come out of the boat at 180 degrees plus, I have pushed them hard enough to see well over 200 degrees.

And I'll tell you what, I would be much more concerned about my next door neighbors kid getting a new RTR lipo powered foamie from Walmart (they sell them) and crashing it causing a damaged cell to ignite and burn down the neighborhood than I ever would a hobbiest with a lipo powered boat.

Paul.

Paul, you are one of the more knowledgeable FE guys & I respect that for sure. Ok so maybe stressed to near max. wasn't the right way to say what I mean. It is no secret that you guys attempt to extract the maximum you can, that's what racing is all about & we fuel burners are no different. The demands placed on packs used in FE racing in my opinion are greater than any cell phone, cordless tool or toy will ever see. BTW- cordless power tools utilize a complex set of circuitry built in that constantly monitors for instability, cell imbalance and excessive charge temperatures & will automatically shut down the battery if conditions point to a chain reaction. I guess this is why we haven't heard of any of these going up in flames. Unless I'm missing something is there anything like that in use within FE boats? There is about to be a significant influx of lipo cells into the FE boat racing world and I want to see some solid guidelines on using these power sources. As an example, I personally see no reason not to require something like the Battery Bunker that Kevin posted a link to be used during all charging sequences at races & practices. At a measily $20 for the small one or $30 for the large one this seems like a no brainer to really up the safety level. Isn't the charging process one of the higher points of risk with these cells and how they are used?

So why are we going round & round over coming up with some safety guidelines & requirements?? The point is potential liability and why something definitively written needs to be in place. I can't stress enough what I posted in the "debate" thread that having nothing is a monumental risk in that regard, this coming from a very prominent lawyer I know who is fascinated with these boats. Like I said before he is the one who said get something written in the rules to cover our collective butts from the ambulance chasers should something actually happen. It is far better to have some written safety rules & if someone chooses to ignore that it puts a very different light on things as far as litigation is concerned. Always plan for the "what if" factor whenever you can within reason and, like the old saying goes, hope for the best but be prepared for the worst. Hey we might not ever see a serious situation arise but why get caught with your pants down if it does?

 

[Kevin Whitehead]

If safety is all of our concerns here, why don't we look at the hobby (across all types of power sources) and see where to actual injuries are occurring?

If everyone's safety and limiting liability is the goal, wouldn't it be smart to correct the known faults in the safety system first? Rather than go on a fishing expeditions for potential faults.

Aren't the vast majority of all the extremely serious R/C model boat injuries occuring when boats with engines running/props spinning are being launched?

How many people each years get fingers, or hands, or legs, or feet slashed up by propellers? Is anyone keeping track of this?

You will notice that these launching incidents are not happening in the electric races. I've seen injuries happen at nitro races, like a toss done without checking rotation and the boat quickly running right back into the feet of the launcher. Nasty foot damage. Calling for full foot shoes or boots hardly does anything for this problem. Why isn't there a clutch developed so that launches are safe (like in electric racing)?

Call me crazy but, I think finding are real solution to folks (probably dozens every year) getting slashed to pieces is a hell of a lot more important than creating a lot of suspection and mistrust of an unfamiliar technolgy.

 

[lohring]

You might take a look at this site for the safety tests Kokam uses for its cells. I think we would be hard pressed to exceed these conditions in model use.

http://www.kokam.com/english/product/kokam_safety_02.html

Lohring Miller

 

[Don Ferrette]

Call me crazy but, I think finding are real solution to folks (probably dozens every year) getting slashed to pieces is a hell of a lot more important than creating a lot of suspection and mistrust of an unfamiliar technolgy.

Getting slashed to pieces?? Probably dozens every year?? Enough already with this diversionary finger pointing, why are you bucking establishing a few written FE safety guidelines and requirements?? Aren't there already rules in place for prop guards, launch handles, no open toes shoes, etc. etc. Those rules are there for a reason & if they are not followed by the individual(s) then that puts the burden on them as opposed to the sanctioning body or host club(s). Yes, accidents can & do happen but at least there are rudimentary safety guidelines in place for the vast majority of them. So we know that a charging bunker can contain a pack fire and a bucket of sand can be effective in containing a fire in a hull. Are there any established rules by the sanctioning bodies in place like saying there should be a bucket of sand in the pits at the races or charging bunkers used when charging batteries?? There needs to be something written and in effect to protect from being found negligent in regards to safety if, and I am saying IF the unfortunate were to possibly occur. This is not me "on a fishing expedition" as you chose to put it, rather being recommended to me from a very prominent and well respected lawyer, on what grounds do you advise not to do so?? Can something go wrong? Maybe? Will it? I don't know & you sure as hell don't either. What is wrong with a simple pro-active preventative approach rather than waiting for something to happen??? Nobody is saying don't use them or instituting scare tactics here, let's get real. <_<

 

[Tom Levescy]

Instead of pointing fingers all over the place, think about the argument of launching injuries, those incidents involve one person at a time getting hurt, maybe two.

A lipo fire can EASILY spread and hurt many people/property with that being a known chance why in the world is there a resistance to a safety containment rule during charging?

Think about it guys, if we boaters don't police ourselves, the lawyers will and do we really want them involved in governing our hobby?

As a lipo owner/user I not only charge my packs in a Bunker but I also store them in it when not in use.

 

[Don Ferrette]

Instead of pointing fingers all over the place, think about the argument of launching injuries, those incidents involve one person at a time getting hurt, maybe two.
A lipo fire can EASILY spread and hurt many people/property with that being a known chance why in the world is there a resistance to a safety containment rule during charging?

Think about it guys, if we boaters don't police ourselves, the lawyers will and do we really want them involved in governing our hobby?

As a lipo owner/user I not only charge my packs in a Bunker but I also store them in it when not in use.

THANK YOU Tom!!!! See, it's really not that difficult is it? Seriously, can a rule that makes you spend $20 or $30 for a Bunker in return for the tremendous added safety factor be all that bad? Geez, my nephew spent more than that on his jock strap/cup & mouth piece to play youth club football.

 

[Hurricane]

In E-RCU they require some kind of containment (bunker) when charging batteries (LiPo's). One of the simplist is a potery plant holder turned up side down over the batteries and on one of the water holder they normaly sit in. I have seen LiPo's burn and it is not a fun and looks lots worse than the NiCads I used to see burn in my car racing days. Why any resistance to stating some kind of rules and hoping it never happens. If something was to happen and the rule was vilated wouldn't that clear the club or Gov. body? If there isn't any problems why is there so many warnings on all the batteries we buy?

 

[Darin Jordan]

Why any resistance to stating some kind of rules and hoping it never happens.

WHY does everyone keep saying there is "resistance to stating some kind of rules" concerning safety? THEY ARE IN THE NAMBA PROPOSAL!

[QUOTE='NAMBA Battery Proposal #1]Note: It is recognized that the high energy potential of modern cells can poses a potential for danger, both to racers and to their pit equipment. It is therefore required that each racer keep in their charging area the appropriate safety equipment at events where alternate battery chemistries are being used. This may include fire extinguishers, safe charging enclosures, sand buckets, etc. Additionally, the hosting clubs may provide additional equipment, charging procedures, and/ or charging areas as they see fit.
[/QUOTE]
It's all there... it would be illogical, unethical (focusing on ONE brand, product, etc.), and quite frankly, not LEGALLY sound, to require a "specific" piece of equipment. AND, the hosting club has total control over the situation and can provide any additionl measures "as they see fit." That doen't just mean equipment... it can mean additional rules, "procedures", requirements, training, whatever...

We've taken the steps in NAMBA to provide the tools for all the safety we can hope for... Certainly more fire-prevention measures than current NAMBA rules require...

 

[Grimracer]

Understandably there will be a leaning curve with the new batteries. right.. what about all the new misuse of the batteries.. Packs will be a puffing day after day.. time after time.. To large a prop, to much motor.. lots of money.. If a new racers buys a boat and at his first race puffs his packs bad what are the chances he or she is going to think this is fun.. heck he just wanted to go as fast as he could to try to win the race.. right.

Sure this same thing can happen with Nims but with Nims you get what you pay for.. with lipos ( for the most part ) they just make power no matter what. Until they destroy themselves (puff) .. the fire can happens after they are cooled back down..

Where i work we have people that lipos are there business.. I have seen some of our best battery guys puff packs.. and not on purpose.

O well.. Im just concerned about the cost and some of the safety issues with liops.. i have quite a few lipos myself and all in all they do perform well but are they NESSARY TO MAKE BETTER RC BOATING....?

Grim