N-1 MONO
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Kevin Whitehead
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Dick,
What is the difference (other than obvious top speeds) between N2 and N1?
When, in order to be truly in the running to win, a beginner must compete against racers with many years of brushed motor experience (possibly from cars), racers with the dough to buy comm lathes and dynos, or racers spending the cash for spec motors tuned by pros like Agressive R/C Technologies (you know, the folks with the really annoying flashing banner).
N1 does not seem like much of a beginner class when that is taken into account.
KW
What is the difference (other than obvious top speeds) between N2 and N1?
When, in order to be truly in the running to win, a beginner must compete against racers with many years of brushed motor experience (possibly from cars), racers with the dough to buy comm lathes and dynos, or racers spending the cash for spec motors tuned by pros like Agressive R/C Technologies (you know, the folks with the really annoying flashing banner).
N1 does not seem like much of a beginner class when that is taken into account.
KW
Kevin,
We are missing something here, probably a little from you and a little from me. You are usually my voice of reason and in almost every case I categorically agree with you. I can always at least count on you to say what many of us don't have the courage to. (we might hurt some feelings).
Normally I'd just spout off some trite comment like I don't care, just thinking about running N1 classes the last couple years makes my skin crawl, but in this case I'll try a little harder.
Why do newcomers start out in N1 instead of N2 or any other modified class?
The biggest reasons I can think of are that it is a cheaper entry level class, it's slower and easier for a newcomer to drive and learn how to drive.
You mention the Com lathes and vast array of other support equipment. Yep, you're right. I've seen magnet zappers, special super brushes and I still can't keep up with the 27 turn of the month. There have to be more variations in that motor then any I've seen. Still, I never needed it when I raced in N1. Just give me my trusty old green machine and a new set of brushes once a year whether it needed it or not. I do see your point though. I can remember the days when I ran Mod 05's to smoke the Astro Flight guys. I was cutting coms every other run. The fact is that the stock motors didn't pull the amps and could withstand way more use before they would need help. Perhaps that isn't the case anymore. Don't tell my son, I got so sick of cutting coms I don't want to go down that road again, even for him! Would 19 turns change this?
Another thing to think about....We vets, will mortgage the house for the latest and greatest, but how easy is it to wiggle out a few bucks from a newbie for even a new stock motor! I can remember those days, oh how I long for that common sense once again! So now I've got to go hammer on a bunch of guys who just bought their 27's for the year and tell them to get ready to buy some 19's. Not a big deal, except that I can't for the life of me figure out why we need to do it in the first place? Who wants the change? Why? Who is the class for? Oh ya, I forgot, we don't have to run the class like NAMBA says....Ya right, then leave it 27 and you guys be the outlaws? Wait a minute, I want to be an outlaw, Outlaws are cool.
The way I see it, N1 is one of the few newbie classes we have. The vets want to go faster with 19's. So why stop there? I can remember the old Trinity Psychotic reaction that was a nice little 13 turn sealed can motor. I mean if we're going for more speed then lets put something in that really rips. After all, there just aren't enough Mod classes for us vets and that stupid 27 turn N1 is just too slow, a couple more MPH will make all the difference and save the class. Maybe that Novak system isn't such a bad deal? Heck with it, I'm back, skin crawling and all. N1 baby, bring on the 19. That class needs guys like me to breath a little life back into it. It will be awesome. I hope that sounds just as ridiculous to you as the savior 19 turn does to me.
I tried to throw a little Kevin flare into that! How did I do?
Dick
We are missing something here, probably a little from you and a little from me. You are usually my voice of reason and in almost every case I categorically agree with you. I can always at least count on you to say what many of us don't have the courage to. (we might hurt some feelings).
Normally I'd just spout off some trite comment like I don't care, just thinking about running N1 classes the last couple years makes my skin crawl, but in this case I'll try a little harder.
Why do newcomers start out in N1 instead of N2 or any other modified class?
The biggest reasons I can think of are that it is a cheaper entry level class, it's slower and easier for a newcomer to drive and learn how to drive.
You mention the Com lathes and vast array of other support equipment. Yep, you're right. I've seen magnet zappers, special super brushes and I still can't keep up with the 27 turn of the month. There have to be more variations in that motor then any I've seen. Still, I never needed it when I raced in N1. Just give me my trusty old green machine and a new set of brushes once a year whether it needed it or not. I do see your point though. I can remember the days when I ran Mod 05's to smoke the Astro Flight guys. I was cutting coms every other run. The fact is that the stock motors didn't pull the amps and could withstand way more use before they would need help. Perhaps that isn't the case anymore. Don't tell my son, I got so sick of cutting coms I don't want to go down that road again, even for him! Would 19 turns change this?
Another thing to think about....We vets, will mortgage the house for the latest and greatest, but how easy is it to wiggle out a few bucks from a newbie for even a new stock motor! I can remember those days, oh how I long for that common sense once again! So now I've got to go hammer on a bunch of guys who just bought their 27's for the year and tell them to get ready to buy some 19's. Not a big deal, except that I can't for the life of me figure out why we need to do it in the first place? Who wants the change? Why? Who is the class for? Oh ya, I forgot, we don't have to run the class like NAMBA says....Ya right, then leave it 27 and you guys be the outlaws? Wait a minute, I want to be an outlaw, Outlaws are cool.
The way I see it, N1 is one of the few newbie classes we have. The vets want to go faster with 19's. So why stop there? I can remember the old Trinity Psychotic reaction that was a nice little 13 turn sealed can motor. I mean if we're going for more speed then lets put something in that really rips. After all, there just aren't enough Mod classes for us vets and that stupid 27 turn N1 is just too slow, a couple more MPH will make all the difference and save the class. Maybe that Novak system isn't such a bad deal? Heck with it, I'm back, skin crawling and all. N1 baby, bring on the 19. That class needs guys like me to breath a little life back into it. It will be awesome. I hope that sounds just as ridiculous to you as the savior 19 turn does to me.
I tried to throw a little Kevin flare into that! How did I do?
Dick
Kelly, your offshore proposal is awesome, why, it make sence?brooks93 said:
As for progress and lipoly's and all that....Ya baby! But N1 shouldn't be about progress, it should be about maintaining one of the few classes that the newbies have. Why make them buy new motors to be legal? Oh ya, we don't have to follow NAMBA's rules. If that's the case then leave it alone and you guys can be the outlaws. I know, I already used it on Kevins reply, but I really liked it.
I have never voted no on an electric proposal as long as I've been involved in this sport. This will be the first. The worst part is I don't/won't run in the class but my little moral concience says I need to say me peace. Hey, wait, is that what that inner child sounds like? I'm about to kick him in the.......
Dick
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This is exhausting.
Could we just debate this one here? I can't keep up with the same debate on two boards. LOL
Could we just debate this one here? I can't keep up with the same debate on two boards. LOL
brooks93
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Yep that be him Dick.. Problem is he is a slippery litte guy.. Here one minute gone the next..
Normally I would try and do A Jedi mind trick on you to get to come over to the dark side but, the Force is strong with you.. LOL
sorry just watched star wars
Your right do we need to change it or do we just do our own thing like we always do.
Viva la Outlaws
Mount up..
Dan Proulx
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Newcomers start out in whatever class the club that they're in promotes. (if they're involved in a club, if they're not in a club then they buy some cheap off the shelf boat and lose interest anyway)
Dick in your area you've successfully promoted N1 and it works fine for you. In our area we run every week with three spec classes:
N1 mono (19t chameleon)
LSH
LSO
Guess what class gets the most new entrants - LSO. My feeling is that it's because our club has promoted this class in most of the local hobby shops, we've posted articles on our club website as to how to setup a new hull, and it's a class that's easy to drive because of the larger hulls when compared to - N1.
Down in Arizona their largest class is Crackerbox...I wonder how that happened?
You might just of well as driven the nail in N1 in our area a few years ago. Nobody wanted to support it and the newbies didn't want to run in the class if the faster guys in the club weren't going to compete in it. Our compromise was the 19T motor. Now all the guys with the expensive brusheless setups in multiple classes all own a meager little N1 hull...with a 19T motor in it.
It's been working for us. It's stayed an inexpensive entry level class that all in our club who run F/E will race in. If I'm not mistaken I think that's also good for the hobby.
Dan
Dick in your area you've successfully promoted N1 and it works fine for you. In our area we run every week with three spec classes:
N1 mono (19t chameleon)
LSH
LSO
Guess what class gets the most new entrants - LSO. My feeling is that it's because our club has promoted this class in most of the local hobby shops, we've posted articles on our club website as to how to setup a new hull, and it's a class that's easy to drive because of the larger hulls when compared to - N1.
Down in Arizona their largest class is Crackerbox...I wonder how that happened?
You might just of well as driven the nail in N1 in our area a few years ago. Nobody wanted to support it and the newbies didn't want to run in the class if the faster guys in the club weren't going to compete in it. Our compromise was the 19T motor. Now all the guys with the expensive brusheless setups in multiple classes all own a meager little N1 hull...with a 19T motor in it.
It's been working for us. It's stayed an inexpensive entry level class that all in our club who run F/E will race in. If I'm not mistaken I think that's also good for the hobby.
Dan
Dan, I've felt the same but didn't want to point the giant finger of blame anymore then I had to but the fact is, N1 and 27 turn motors are successful because we actively promote new growth and have a class that the newbies can call their own. A class that many vets race in to promote the class itself. If it were 100% newbies and no vets then I would race in it again to promote the class and keep it going. Whatever it takes to foster the growth of new membership.
In reality I'm glad you guys have LSO, sounds like it might be even a better entry level class then N1. We don't have it, we use N1. My knee-jerk reaction is that you are screwing up an entry level class for the benefit of the veterans. It sounds selfish and self serving to fine tune another class for the old guys. If you aren't willing to promote it as it is you may need to re-evaluate your priorities. Again, this is my knee-jerk reaction and I should probably emphasize the jerk part (me)!
However, if you don't need this class for your newbies I can see where you are coming from. Too bad it screws it up for the 20+ guys who run the class in our neck of the woods and have never had any trouble with 27 turns. If anyone foresaw a reason for change it should have been the masses who run the class. I know, I know, other clubs have been running 19's and have decided this was the way to go. Have any been as successful as ours with N1? Not a chance! So we get to follow that lead? It's a kick in the ..... for the guys out here. But, that's fine. NAMBA is a big organization and nobody has broke any rules, to the contrary, they are being followed to the T. And, yes, I will gladly buy a 19 for my son if it passes. However, I did get an e-mail from a brand new guy who has never raced but has been building boats for this season. Here is his quote:
"If they decide to go with 19T, I may just not put together an N1 boat... I'm stretched thin enough now and thought I had what I needed... I can't really absorb dumping the investment in motors thus far to go buy a set of 19T motors... At least not right now..."
So Dan and others Who is the class for? Is this what we want? How many other classes do we have and do we really need to fine tune another for us vets? Oh ya, you mention the newbies don't want to run 27's cause they are too slow. I wonder where they got that idea. Just like kids, newbies are very impressionable. Not one newbie out here has ever said that and most run LSH too. Speed is relative. If everyone is going 21 does it really matter? Will 23 or 24 make that big of difference?
Dick
In reality I'm glad you guys have LSO, sounds like it might be even a better entry level class then N1. We don't have it, we use N1. My knee-jerk reaction is that you are screwing up an entry level class for the benefit of the veterans. It sounds selfish and self serving to fine tune another class for the old guys. If you aren't willing to promote it as it is you may need to re-evaluate your priorities. Again, this is my knee-jerk reaction and I should probably emphasize the jerk part (me)!
However, if you don't need this class for your newbies I can see where you are coming from. Too bad it screws it up for the 20+ guys who run the class in our neck of the woods and have never had any trouble with 27 turns. If anyone foresaw a reason for change it should have been the masses who run the class. I know, I know, other clubs have been running 19's and have decided this was the way to go. Have any been as successful as ours with N1? Not a chance! So we get to follow that lead? It's a kick in the ..... for the guys out here. But, that's fine. NAMBA is a big organization and nobody has broke any rules, to the contrary, they are being followed to the T. And, yes, I will gladly buy a 19 for my son if it passes. However, I did get an e-mail from a brand new guy who has never raced but has been building boats for this season. Here is his quote:
"If they decide to go with 19T, I may just not put together an N1 boat... I'm stretched thin enough now and thought I had what I needed... I can't really absorb dumping the investment in motors thus far to go buy a set of 19T motors... At least not right now..."
So Dan and others Who is the class for? Is this what we want? How many other classes do we have and do we really need to fine tune another for us vets? Oh ya, you mention the newbies don't want to run 27's cause they are too slow. I wonder where they got that idea. Just like kids, newbies are very impressionable. Not one newbie out here has ever said that and most run LSH too. Speed is relative. If everyone is going 21 does it really matter? Will 23 or 24 make that big of difference?
Dick
drobie
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Dick, we'll let Tonya Harding take care of your knees, so don't beat yourself up. LOLcrowebar said:
Another take on what Dan's club did is find COMPROMISE. They didn't "screw up an entry level class", they amended it to work for everyone.
Darrin posted this from the Director of ROAR competition:
If there is a valid argument in favor of going to 19T, that's it. You have a disconnected, completely objective ROAR official encouraging us to consider it. Good enough for me.
If you need another reason, ask the DMWB. The 19T worked to revive N1 there too.
And a PS: Can we get over the "entry level" thing? I think everyone can agree that "entry level" is dictated by the local and regional club culture. Heck, in MI and CAFE, it might be considered Q or S Offshore. Eddie Hansen is running 1/8 scale hydro at his first sanctioned race.
N1 was one of the last classes I got involved in and because the hassle in running it, it'll be the first one I drop. I personally will never own another 27T motor.
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Darin Jordan
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The "benefit" he's discussing, however, has to do strictly with a POTENTIAL to increase performance of these boats...drobie said:
We've heard in this thread that "27Ts are slow", and the "ROAR is going to 19T for Stock", etc... Well, ROAR is NOT going to 19T for stock, and, at least up here, 27Ts aren't as slow as you guys say they are... Maybe for those who just buy a boat and drop a motor in..., but for those interesting in learning the ins and outs of boat racing, the performance (relitively speaking) is there... More importantly, the chance to learn to DRIVE is there, with a little less pressure than would exist in O-Mono, for example...
Again, the ROAR official was commenting on taking advantage of the PERFORMANCE benefits of the 19T... meaning, it MAY make a boat go faster than the current 27T... (or, maybe it just offers more torque, but not the revs...???) That being the case, then let's get the arguments straight here...
Those that are in favor of these have a desire for more speed, period... It has little to do with availability (as evident by the fact the there are more 27T ROAR motors to choose from than 19T...), and has little to do with "attracting newbies"... It has to do with people wanting the boats to go faster... and that's it...
I thought that's what N2 was for...
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Hey Doug No problem,
Lets let the chips fall where they may, but please forgive me if I refrain from taking power tips for my boats from the ROAR car guy!
Could be the first time a NAMBA electric proposal gets more then 10 votes!
Dick
Lets let the chips fall where they may, but please forgive me if I refrain from taking power tips for my boats from the ROAR car guy!
Could be the first time a NAMBA electric proposal gets more then 10 votes!
Dick
drobie
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I think this will be a milestone vote in many ways:crowebar said:
1. New Sport Hydro guidelines.
2. Massive overall of Offshore rules.
3. LSO proposed as a class. (Some of the provisions will cause controversy to erupt....you can count on it.)
4. And then there's one more that I can't recall.....something about one of the N classes......
Darin Jordan
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Larry,TRUCKPULL said:
I was under the impression that we were suppose to be getting ballots in April...
drobie
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We were "supposed" to get ballots by Feb 15. NAMBA has had the proposals since the first week in January.Darin Jordan said:
They were supposed to be mailed with a Feb newsletter. I was told that if enough material was not gathered for the newsletter, they would be mailed alone.
BTW, "The Propwash" is assembled and edited by 2 people. The last issue was 26 pages. Editing consists of translating a lot of the submissions into readable English...a daunting task.
Kevin Whitehead
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crowebar said:
Dan, says that the change increased the speeds in Minn. 5-8 mph. Ted says it will only increase 2 mph.
I know Dan. I am going to have to put more stock in Dan, rather than the guy with the 35 mph N1 mono.
That said, there is no doubt that the difference in speeds between N1 and N2 have been growing larger. As this difference increases, the argument that N1 should remain slow to train beginner drivers gets weaker and weaker. Soon, the speed difference will be so large that stepping from N1 to N2 will be just like starting over.
A switch to a 19T motor will in fact decrease the gap in speeds, for the first time in what? 10 years or more. That gap must have been getting larger for at least that long.
The two real good arguments for changing are:
1. Decreasing the gap so that transitioning to N2 (or faster) is easier
2. Doing something (anything) to attempt to save N1 Hydro
Dick, you mentioned that the arguments for the change were some of the weakest you've seen. Some are.
But, look at the arguments against the change:
1. Old tribal customs. "We have always done it this way"
2. It works in Seattle.
3. Those who want 19T just want speed for themselves
4. It is impossible that a slightly faster N1 boat could attract beginners, anywhere.
4. I already have a 27T motor (or eight) and I do not want to buy a 19T motor
Not exactly a powerhouse of arguments on that side, either.
KW
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Darin Jordan
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Kevin Whitehead said:
So now the rational is to try to make transitioning to N2 easier and to "save" N1 Hydro???
1. If N1 Monos are too slow... WHY would anyone be interested in running N1 Hydro? We don't even run N2 Hydro out here... though, a few of us are trying to change that...
2. A step UP in class from N1 to N2 is SUPPOSE to bridge a performance gap. Are you trying to tell me that people want this to be LESS of a step? What incentive would they have to change, and shell out the $$$ for new equipment for a higher performance class, if it not THAT much of an increase???
NOT very convincing...
Paul Pachmayer
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Hey Guys,
Man, your really whippin' this horse. :lol:
Paul.
Man, your really whippin' this horse. :lol:
Paul.
