Monos built strickly for SAW?

[John Finch]

Andy you'd be better off submitting your drawings/ plans to get approved prior to attempting a record. Once you attempt a record that is when someone can protest your equipment. I have seen it done a couple of times at records trials. Better to have approval first than spend the monies and then have your equipment protested.

You mean like it's ok until it goes to fast? LOL

Been there, done that with a sport 45...that was 22 years ago and if the same boat came out today not one person would bat an eye.

YES! Same for races no one cares if you have a bigger engine than the class allows unless you beat them or one of their buddies. Then you have protest wars going on.

Bill,

I agree, and we need to be proactive and protest more often to put out the message that everyone needs to play by the rules or the organization loses credibility.

 

[hugh hargett]

John and Andy I understand that simple may be better but why do the rules need to decide that? As long as its a mono and the real mono boats run steps they should be allowed in the mono class. The real comparison is how will the stepped monos run against those with no step? Id think the mono with the least drag would be best. I know this is a saw discussion but since the saw boats are dictated by heat boat rules as far as hull designs its relevant.Yes a saw setup would possibly negate steps as it rides all the way up on top but dont the steps help it get there quicker?Also as they remove spray do they improve stability?

Hugh

 

[Andy Brown]

Thanks John and Bill for the information.

About my illegal sport 45. There was zero about the sport 45 that even pushed the limits of the rules. It was full bodied and the transom was just as wide as the front sponson spacing. The bottom was perfectly clean. Just one big countinuous surface. Had a pickle fork well within the limits. The strut and prop where mounted as per the rule book. It was a "Drop Sponson " design like the Lauterbach.

The reason the CD deemed it illegal is that the Drop Sponsons where Mongoose sponsons and the cowl was a Mongoose cowl. Therefore he said it was a modified outrigger.

He said if I would at least change the cowl it would be legal.

John, just one question you could answer right here. A standard vee hull has the keel sanded flat 1" wide from bow to transom and a peice of 3/32" ply was glued on to make the flat. This 3/32" ply would retain it sharp 90 degree edges from transom to bow. Additionaly a 1/16" thick by 1/2" wide ply is glued to the center of the 3/32" ply, aslo going from transom to bow and retaining it's sharp 90 degree corner from bow to transom. This 1/16" thick by 1/2" wide ply would be the keel. Legal?

 

[hugh hargett]

LOL

 

[John Finch]

John and Andy I understand that simple may be better but why do the rules need to decide that? As long as its a mono and the real mono boats run steps they should be allowed in the mono class. The real comparison is how will the stepped monos run against those with no step? Id think the mono with the least drag would be best. I know this is a saw discussion but since the saw boats are dictated by heat boat rules as far as hull designs its relevant.Yes a saw setup would possibly negate steps as it rides all the way up on top but dont the steps help it get there quicker?Also as they remove spray do they improve stability?

Hugh

If a mono has steps it is a hydro. It can only be a mono or hydro. Tell me how you would NOT class a mono with steps as a hydro. Strakes help heat racing boats to break free and throw water away from the hull. They also help in gripping the water in a turn. I have not tried steps for SAW because they are not legal so cannot say if they would be any help. I would guess not from my experience with being able to get a mono to speed very fast with no problem. A little cavitation or ventilation more correctly named will do the trick most of the time.

 

[Andy Brown]

John and Andy I understand that simple may be better but why do the rules need to decide that? As long as its a mono and the real mono boats run steps they should be allowed in the mono class. The real comparison is how will the stepped monos run against those with no step? Id think the mono with the least drag would be best. I know this is a saw discussion but since the saw boats are dictated by heat boat rules as far as hull designs its relevant.Yes a saw setup would possibly negate steps as it rides all the way up on top but dont the steps help it get there quicker?Also as they remove spray do they improve stability?

Hugh

If a mono has steps it is a hydro. It can only be a mono or hydro. Tell me how you would NOT class a mono with steps as a hydro. Strakes help heat racing boats to break free and throw water away from the hull. They also help in gripping the water in a turn. I have not tried steps for SAW because they are not legal so cannot say if they would be any help. I would guess not from my experience with being able to get a mono to speed very fast with no problem. A little cavitation or ventilation more correctly named will do the trick most of the time.

Did you see my post (question) John?

 

[crfabbro1]

Thanks John and Bill for the information.

About my illegal sport 45. There was zero about the sport 45 that even pushed the limits of the rules. It was full bodied and the transom was just as wide as the front sponson spacing. The bottom was perfectly clean. Just one big countinuous surface. Had a pickle fork well within the limits. The strut and prop where mounted as per the rule book. It was a "Drop Sponson " design like the Lauterbach.

The reason the CD deemed it illegal is that the Drop Sponsons where Mongoose sponsons and the cowl was a Mongoose cowl. Therefore he said it was a modified outrigger.

He said if I would at least change the cowl it would be legal.

John, just one question you could answer right here. A standard vee hull has the keel sanded flat 1" wide from bow to transom and a peice of 3/32" ply was glued on to make the flat. This 3/32" ply would retain it sharp 90 degree edges from transom to bow. Additionaly a 1/16" thick by 1/2" wide ply is glued to the center of the 3/32" ply, aslo going from transom to bow and retaining it's sharp 90 degree corner from bow to transom. This 1/16" thick by 1/2" wide ply would be the keel. Legal?

Legal!

 

[John Finch]

John and Andy I understand that simple may be better but why do the rules need to decide that? As long as its a mono and the real mono boats run steps they should be allowed in the mono class. The real comparison is how will the stepped monos run against those with no step? Id think the mono with the least drag would be best. I know this is a saw discussion but since the saw boats are dictated by heat boat rules as far as hull designs its relevant.Yes a saw setup would possibly negate steps as it rides all the way up on top but dont the steps help it get there quicker?Also as they remove spray do they improve stability?

Hugh

If a mono has steps it is a hydro. It can only be a mono or hydro. Tell me how you would NOT class a mono with steps as a hydro. Strakes help heat racing boats to break free and throw water away from the hull. They also help in gripping the water in a turn. I have not tried steps for SAW because they are not legal so cannot say if they would be any help. I would guess not from my experience with being able to get a mono to speed very fast with no problem. A little cavitation or ventilation more correctly named will do the trick most of the time.

Did you see my post (question) John?

No, I did not see it. Sorry. Just read Hugh's post. I would say the boat is legal. I tried a boat like that except for the 1/2 inch pad on top of it about four years ago. Was very fast but did have a tendancy to spin out or launch on a wake because of the wide keel at the bow. Sounds like you put a ski bottom from one of your hydros on a mono. Cool beans! I usually just sand the bottom out of a deep vee in a pie shape so the forward keel cuts the water instead of bouncing the boat. My 20 boat has a 10 degree vee cut into a deep vee the same way. I will try to post a photo.

 

[Andy Brown]

Ok. Thanks John and Chris. I know there is a lot more to going fast with a mono then how the bottom is built, but that gives me an idea of what I can and can't do.

There is nothing in the rule book about the transom. Is it ok to sweep it forward, making it look like a vee from the Plan view? Similar to forward swept wings on an airplane?

 

[John Finch]

Ok. Thanks John and Chris. I know there is a lot more to going fast with a mono then how the bottom is built, but that gives me an idea of what I can and can't do.

There is nothing in the rule book about the transom. Is it ok to sweep it forward, making it look like a vee from the Plan view? Similar to forward swept wings on an airplane?

I am trying to visualize. If I am visualizing correctly I see no problem with it. If your design works anything like your hydro designs we should see some really fast speeds. Sounds like a fun project. All my mono designs worked like crap first time in the water so don't get discouraged if first trip to the pond is not as expected. The 20 SAW boat for instance was a real dog the first time in the water. I adjusted the strut, strut length, rudder location, and weight distribution all day long. At the end of the day the boat ran 77 mph. Still turns like crap, but good speed. The second boat with the 10 degree vee was a duplicate of the first boat and I already knew all the rudder and strut locations so it worked right off the bat. Got 80 out of it first day. Bottom line.......takes a lot of adjusting to make it work. Throw theory out the window and go to work.

 

[lohring]

Seducers have a large radius at the keel. I think this adds a lot of lift.

Lohring Miller

 

[Tom Foley]

I bet Jerry has fooled with that "Pad " to get speed similar to an Allison , Velocity , Bullet etc in the full size boat world . You would be surprised at the small changes in 21 ft boats to settle them down over 100 mph .+ even on perfect water .

 

[crfabbro1]

Ok. Thanks John and Chris. I know there is a lot more to going fast with a mono then how the bottom is built, but that gives me an idea of what I can and can't do.

There is nothing in the rule book about the transom. Is it ok to sweep it forward, making it look like a vee from the Plan view? Similar to forward swept wings on an airplane?

I hope it's legal! I have a new 40" mono that I just began testing and it has a swept forward transom. I did put a flat spot at the center

wide enough for mounting the strut/rudder.

 

[John Finch]

Ok. Thanks John and Chris. I know there is a lot more to going fast with a mono then how the bottom is built, but that gives me an idea of what I can and can't do.

There is nothing in the rule book about the transom. Is it ok to sweep it forward, making it look like a vee from the Plan view? Similar to forward swept wings on an airplane?

I hope it's legal! I have a new 40" mono that I just began testing and it has a swept forward transom. I did put a flat spot at the center

wide enough for mounting the strut/rudder.

Sounds ok Chris. It's easier to get the hardware mounted if you have a squared off transom area.

 

[Andy Brown]

Ok. Thanks John and Chris. I know there is a lot more to going fast with a mono then how the bottom is built, but that gives me an idea of what I can and can't do.

There is nothing in the rule book about the transom. Is it ok to sweep it forward, making it look like a vee from the Plan view? Similar to forward swept wings on an airplane?

I hope it's legal! I have a new 40" mono that I just began testing and it has a swept forward transom. I did put a flat spot at the center

wide enough for mounting the strut/rudder.

Yes, with the flat spot is what I had in mind too.

 

[John Finch]

Ok. Thanks John and Chris. I know there is a lot more to going fast with a mono then how the bottom is built, but that gives me an idea of what I can and can't do.

There is nothing in the rule book about the transom. Is it ok to sweep it forward, making it look like a vee from the Plan view? Similar to forward swept wings on an airplane?

I hope it's legal! I have a new 40" mono that I just began testing and it has a swept forward transom. I did put a flat spot at the center

wide enough for mounting the strut/rudder.

ster.

Yes, with the flat spot is what I had in mind too.

At one time I had all the mono SAW records with the same boat for all engine sizes. Maybe not the c size as I don't think I had a c engine at the time. Anyway....It was a 46 inch Twincraft with the deck removed and the sides cut down to 1/2 inch. Maybe 3/8ths of an inch. Not to brag, too late! What else are records good for anyway, but bragging rights. Point is.....the same boat hull was used for all the engine sizes and it worked. It was basically what you guys are looking to do. Low profile! Punch as small a hole in the air as possible. Cutting the deck to 1/2 inch made the boat at about half the original length and made for a small transom. It also had a flat pad like I descibed earlier that started about 10 inched in front of the transom and widened to about 3/4 inch at the transom. The bow was dipped a bit to help keep the boat on the water at speed. Just giving you some past experience to help you guys get there faster. The boat would blow off the water at about 70 mph without the dip in the bow. Every step you take that yields more speed may require a strut, prop, or rudder adjustment. If your boats get to doing something you can't figure out what to do next let me know and we can most likely figure it out together. You guys are pretty smart so You may already be past all this and ready for record trials. Especially Andy, who I have seen make a 126 mph pass with his rigger at E- City. Not everyone can do that. Looking forward to seeing what you have for the mono class!

 

[Terry Keeley]

At one time I had all the mono SAW records with the same boat for all engine sizes.

Was that the one you ran up in Elmira in the mid 90's?

If so very impressive at the time, think you were the 1st to 70, no?

 

[John Finch]

Terry,

You were records director at the time and put it out there........who will be the first to do 70 mph with a mono. I took that as a challange and did it. That boat was the first one I built for SAW. I used a credit card taped to the deck to keep the boat on the water. You do what you have to on the fly. Then I went home and built the sloped deck version of the same boat to eliminate the credit card. I used the sloped deck boat to break the other records. Back in the day 70 mph was just a dream. After setting the record Steve Speas said why don't you do the oval record. I said it is a SAW boat and it doesn't turn very sharp. He said just make a big circle, so I did and took the 40 oval record that day as well. Fun memories. I remember you had your rigger and were knocking on the door of the rigger record. We had a lot of discussion on air density that weekend. You had your charts and such and shared them with me.

I used an ops 45 with an irwin pipe that was set longer than usual so the pipe would turn on three times. It turned on right after launch, then at half speed, then just before the traps. It was an awesome sound. Kentley and I did the same timing to break the 67 and 90 rigger records. If you can imagine a boat coming around buoy six already on the pipe and then turn on again at 100 mph it was awesome! 103 mph at the end of the straightaway and 98 mph coming out of the corner on the stalker radar gun. I had to drive an egg shape course at that speed and when the boat came out of the turn on buoy six it headed towards the pits and you could see everyone backing up like oh sxxx. I was driving it that way so the prop walk would cary it back to buoy one without rudder movement. Another great memory. Kentley was the boat builder on those boats and I was the driver. I think he had an Orlic mod engine in the f class and I used a Pico 67 I modified for the 67 class. I later came back and build a teardrop shaped rigger and lowered the 67 record. Then came back again with a wider boat tub to float the boat and lowered it some more. Those were fun days.

 

[Andy Brown]

Terry,

You were records director at the time and put it out there........who will be the first to do 70 mph with a mono. I took that as a challange and did it. That boat was the first one I built for SAW. I used a credit card taped to the deck to keep the boat on the water. You do what you have to on the fly. Then I went home and built the sloped deck version of the same boat to eliminate the credit card. I used the sloped deck boat to break the other records. Back in the day 70 mph was just a dream. After setting the record Steve Speas said why don't you do the oval record. I said it is a SAW boat and it doesn't turn very sharp. He said just make a big circle, so I did and took the 40 oval record that day as well. Fun memories. I remember you had your rigger and were knocking on the door of the rigger record. We had a lot of discussion on air density that weekend. You had your charts and such and shared them with me.

I used an ops 45 with an irwin pipe that was set longer than usual so the pipe would turn on three times. It turned on right after launch, then at half speed, then just before the traps. It was an awesome sound. Kentley and I did the same timing to break the 67 and 90 rigger records. If you can imagine a boat coming around buoy six already on the pipe and then turn on again at 100 mph it was awesome! 103 mph at the end of the straightaway and 98 mph coming out of the corner on the stalker radar gun. I had to drive an egg shape course at that speed and when the boat came out of the turn on buoy six it headed towards the pits and you could see everyone backing up like oh sxxx. I was driving it that way so the prop walk would cary it back to buoy one without rudder movement. Another great memory. Kentley was the boat builder on those boats and I was the driver. I think he had an Orlic mod engine in the f class and I used a Pico 67 I modified for the 67 class. I later came back and build a teardrop shaped rigger and lowered the 67 record. Then came back again with a wider boat tub to float the boat and lowered it some more. Those were fun days.

...and you're still breaking records John, so you must still be having fun!

 

[Terry Keeley]

Terry,

You were records director at the time and put it out there........who will be the first to do 70 mph with a mono. I took that as a challange and did it. That boat was the first one I built for SAW. I used a credit card taped to the deck to keep the boat on the water. You do what you have to on the fly. Then I went home and built the sloped deck version of the same boat to eliminate the credit card. I used the sloped deck boat to break the other records. Back in the day 70 mph was just a dream. After setting the record Steve Speas said why don't you do the oval record. I said it is a SAW boat and it doesn't turn very sharp. He said just make a big circle, so I did and took the 40 oval record that day as well. Fun memories. I remember you had your rigger and were knocking on the door of the rigger record. We had a lot of discussion on air density that weekend. You had your charts and such and shared them with me.

I used an ops 45 with an irwin pipe that was set longer than usual so the pipe would turn on three times. It turned on right after launch, then at half speed, then just before the traps. It was an awesome sound. Kentley and I did the same timing to break the 67 and 90 rigger records. If you can imagine a boat coming around buoy six already on the pipe and then turn on again at 100 mph it was awesome! 103 mph at the end of the straightaway and 98 mph coming out of the corner on the stalker radar gun. I had to drive an egg shape course at that speed and when the boat came out of the turn on buoy six it headed towards the pits and you could see everyone backing up like oh sxxx. I was driving it that way so the prop walk would cary it back to buoy one without rudder movement. Another great memory. Kentley was the boat builder on those boats and I was the driver. I think he had an Orlic mod engine in the f class and I used a Pico 67 I modified for the 67 class. I later came back and build a teardrop shaped rigger and lowered the 67 record. Then came back again with a wider boat tub to float the boat and lowered it some more. Those were fun days.

Yup, all coming back to me now, it seems the faster we go the faster we get, lot's of fun!

One thing I like about chasing records is there's no rules (there are of course "rules", but you know what I mean!)

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