IMPBA US-1 discussion

[BDM Racing]

And the people who are not interested in that part can skip it and show up to the heat racing latter in the week.
Hmmmmm..............

Sure why not.

or in the current shorten internats format, leave and go on if not interested in US-1 compeatition.

Seems there are some good suggestions coming out, at least its a start at a resolution for the future of Internats

Bob

 

[Marty Davis]

I think the Internats in its current format needs some serious rethinking on multiple points.
Length of time:

A week long race if just to long for not only the racers, but the club hosting it. Depending on drive times some people are looking at having to take a week to a week and a half off work. For a lot of people that is half of there vacation each year. Add to that the cost of lodging for that many nights and we are talking some serious $$.

The race format:

The whole US-1 race format almost begs people not to attend. We are asking the participants to make plans to run 6 days, but only guaranteeing them 3 days of running. If they aren't in the top finishers in the heat racing they are done. So there options are to run a specialty class to fill the time, sit around as a spectator to fill the time, or leave. Keep in mind the first 2 options also means they are paying for lodging and burning up vacation time to be at a race they are done racing at.

To focused on one class of boats:

20, 30, 40 years ago nitro was pretty much all there was. The IMPBA lived and breathed nitro, so the Internats having a nitro focus made sense. That is not the case anymore. In District 2 at any given race half or more of the boats running are GAS, and Electrics are growing in popularity. Nitro on the other hand is becoming less popular to the point that classes that use to draw 12+ boats now can not meet the 3 boat minimum.

Do that math:

So for those people wondering why the Internats is having trouble just add it up. It is a race format that take a way to long, so it can cater to a very specific group of people, running a specific class of boats that are decreasing in numbers in most areas. To be honest winning US-1 is not what it use to be. Back in the day, you had to beat out 50+ people to win it. In some classes now you can win it as long as the class makes the 5 boat minimum.

If you want to hold a grand regatta that represents the organization then format it to the current makeup of the membership. Not the membership we had 30 years ago.

It's always nice to dream about having someone else do the work:

The idea of THE IMPBA hosting the race is almost humorous. The IMPBA is not a professional organization. The Executive Board for the most part it is a few people who donate there time to keep things running. As D2 Director I don't get any money or any perks. The real strength of the IMPBA has always been the clubs. They hold the races and they are where people gather together to play.

Heck, One thing we do right is having the clubs host the national events. The reason is very simple. LOGISTICS

Planning a race is a bear. Imagine trying to do it when the people planning and running it don't even live near the event. Making arrangement for a location 2 or 3 states away takes things to a whole new level. Planning and executing setup and tear down would be nightmare.

-Bob

Bob:

So, in a nutshell you would like to make the IMPBA Internats just another Heat Race?

 

[Marty Davis]

And the people who are not interested in that part can skip it and show up to the heat racing latter in the week.
Hmmmmm..............

Sure why not.

or in the current shorten internats format, leave and go on if not interested in US-1 compeatition.

Seems there are some good suggestions coming out, at least its a start at a resolution for the future of Internats

Bob

Bob:

This is interesting.......

This is EXACTLY the format that the originators of the IMPBA came up with in the early 70's. The main architect of the format was Leonard Skwiera (Hall of Fame Member) and that format is tried and true. Only thing that has changed since the early Internats is that Heat Racing, Timed Oval, SAW were each given 1/2 the value toward US#1. Now, heat racing is given 50% and SAW and oval 25% each.

When the Nats were huge, people would come in just for heat racing if they were not interested in US#1 competition or didn't have time for the total event. Worked great and EVERYONE who wanted, got to run the trophy trials (timed oval and SAW). It is interesting that the intent of the IMPBA Board was to shorten the Internats by putting the Trophy Trial at the end of the week after heat racing with only 6 or less going into Trophy Trials per class. However, the intent of the Board was not realized. People had to reserve their room and may not even get into trophy trials. The original format allowed for the choice of the people interested in/or not interested in the total US#1 format could either come to the Trophy Trials BEFORE heat racing. That way people could know ahead of time that they would only be there for 3 days or for the entire Internats.

An important side note: To win US#1 you had to beat EVERYONE in the trophy trials instead of only 6 or less people.

I attended the Nats that Chris and Dick Jones hosted in Peoria and it was great to see the original format. Was a great time.

 

[Bob Nauss]

I think it is better to have a Internats that represents the majority of the member of the IMPBA and attracts more than just a small group of people.

Stop and think about it. What has more prestige Winning National Champ for beating group of 60 people or US-1 for beating 10?

 

[Tony Jacuzzi]

I like the concept that Chris Woods put out there with 3 rounds of heat racing for everyone, then 2 more rounds of heat racing for the top guys that make the cut (just like the PGA). Then 2 more rounds of heat racing for the best guys, followed by the oval and SAW trials. This concept certainly retains all of the elements of the US-1 format , and I think would dramatically shorten the heat racing by reducing each of the enxt two rounds to a single heat per class. I would also like to see the Internats make a couple of Gas classes US-1 classes, we should not continue to segregate the gas guys from this event. If this is really the premiere event of the IMPBA it can not exclude non nitro segments from US-1 competition.

 

[bzubee]

Tony as for excluding the gas Guys the host club of the gas nats always have the option of using the US-1 format the Huntsville club did just that for the first and so far only Gas Internats. None o fhte other host clubs chose to do that because it seems a majority of the Gas Racers are just not really interested in the running in the US-1 format. Remember the gas boats were allowed to run for US-1 in the 'F' classes at a few of the Internats and very few gas racers took that oportunity, the ones that did , did do fairly well. Why don't you do a poll on Jim's and see how many Gas racers would like to run for a US-1 plaque? If it comes back with enough interest the Huntsville club might consider it for the 2010 format.

I like the concept that Chris Woods put out there with 3 rounds of heat racing for everyone, then 2 more rounds of heat racing for the top guys that make the cut (just like the PGA). Then 2 more rounds of heat racing for the best guys, followed by the oval and SAW trials. This concept certainly retains all of the elements of the US-1 format , and I think would dramatically shorten the heat racing by reducing each of the enxt two rounds to a single heat per class. I would also like to see the Internats make a couple of Gas classes US-1 classes, we should not continue to segregate the gas guys from this event. If this is really the premiere event of the IMPBA it can not exclude non nitro segments from US-1 competition.

 

[Norm Doerr]

I think some folks are missing the point. The US-1 Award separates the Best from the Rest. Making it easy for everyone to win is LAME and boring. I don't think I would want a US-1 simply by winning a heat race. I think planning the budget, playing politics with the family and job, and sacrificing a whole bunch of $$$ makes it all worth it; that is half the battle. I never heard of a Champion at anything who did not sacrifice a LOT to get there. No Pain No Gain. With the way the format was/is set up there is no question the winner earned it.

 

[piper_chuck]

I think some folks are missing the point. The US-1 Award separates the Best from the Rest. Making it easy for everyone to win is LAME and boring. I don't think I would want a US-1 simply by winning a heat race. I think planning the budget, playing politics with the family and job, and sacrificing a whole bunch of $$$ makes it all worth it; that is half the battle. I never heard of a Champion at anything who did not sacrifice a LOT to get there. No Pain No Gain. With the way the format was/is set up there is no question the winner earned it.

No, people are not missing the point. There is nothing EASY about rising to the top of a large number of people in a heat race. It takes a fast boat, good preparation, and good driving. When the question came up about which has more prestige, beating 60 other racers in heat racing or 10 others in a combined heat and time trials I know which one I chose.

Many people have spoken clearly with their choice of races to attend. The length of time required to compete at the Internats is keeping many good racers away. Which has more prestige, beating the best of the best, or just those who can afford to attend a very long event for what amounts to a small amount of running per class for the time and money invested?

 

[Norm Doerr]

I think some folks are missing the point. The US-1 Award separates the Best from the Rest. Making it easy for everyone to win is LAME and boring. I don't think I would want a US-1 simply by winning a heat race. I think planning the budget, playing politics with the family and job, and sacrificing a whole bunch of $$$ makes it all worth it; that is half the battle. I never heard of a Champion at anything who did not sacrifice a LOT to get there. No Pain No Gain. With the way the format was/is set up there is no question the winner earned it.

No, people are not missing the point. There is nothing EASY about rising to the top of a large number of people in a heat race. It takes a fast boat, good preparation, and good driving. When the question came up about which has more prestige, beating 60 other racers in heat racing or 10 others in a combined heat and time trials I know which one I chose.

Many people have spoken clearly with their choice of races to attend. The length of time required to compete at the Internats is keeping many good racers away. Which has more prestige, beating the best of the best, or just those who can afford to attend a very long event for what amounts to a small amount of running per class for the time and money invested?

Please take a look at how US-1 scoring is calculated. With The Trophey Trials you get to put yourself up against EVERYONE you are competing with. With heat racing you are NOT beating 60 other heat racers you are racing maybe five racers at a time per round. After attrition maybe two or three. Yes it is tough but strategic too.

 

[HTV Boats]

If push comes to shove and saving the "Internats" in any year means a shortened format without time trials so be it. Maybe rather than an asterisk* that year you would be a "National Champion" but not a US-1? Thus saving the deserved prestige of the award. Allows flexibility without diminishing a title.

In heat racing alone sometimes luck and lack of can skew the points outcome. Time trials seem to only allow for bad luck, mostly self created. (been there done that) Hard to back door into 1st place into oval and straightaway without having the fastest boat in the field. This format is difficult and takes experience to be good at. When you go to a regular time trial only event your competing with some specialty set ups that you won't see in regular heat racing. At the internats you have to have the total package, thus this discussion format on the value of a US-1 award.

Would raising the number of boats in a class to qualify for a US-1 help shorten trials and allow some new popular classes a shot at the award? If trails preceed heat racing you might find the people who really know they have a shot at the prize will participate and you may not see too many extra entrants anyway. If you raised the limit in a US-1 class to 10 to qualify the class it would shorten trials also. I know that will not be popular but guys in perenial specialty classes that have some real numbers deserve a chance to sit at the table with the adults. Moving the entry dealine to 30 days before the event would give fair notice to classes that are short on entries. If classes are dying and new ones emerging thats evolution and progress if we accept it rather than blindly support old ways. Makes a long weekend event elective for those only into heat racing. In 4 days you can run a lot of heats. You could have a "National Championship" for heat racing and the US-1 being the premier title. More glory more racers.

My 2 cents

Mic Halbrehder

 

[Marty Davis]

I think it is better to have a Internats that represents the majority of the member of the IMPBA and attracts more than just a small group of people.
Stop and think about it. What has more prestige Winning National Champ for beating group of 60 people or US-1 for beating 10?

10 People????

I think that the KEY is to hold Trophy Trials before heat racing so people can make the decision whether to attend or not.

They will know when heat racing starts and can arrive then.

Would save a ton of time for people who do not want to either take off that much time or don't want to run for US#1.

With the Specialty events at the end, it gives all the flexibility to the contestants.

Chris:

The RC Cars have grown continuously over the years and the format that they use is similar to what you describe.

World of Outlaws, Sprints, Midgets, etc all use the heat qualifying system to the A, B, C, etc Mains. That way it is progressive to get into the run for the Championship.

As you remember, the Hydro Masters used a format similar to this and it was highly successful and the most competitive race that I have ever attended. If IMPBA decided to use that format, I would be a happy racer.

But, I love the Internats Format with Trophy Trials BEFORE heat racing.

Just want to see the awarding of US#1 mean that the person has really excelled. Not just another heat race, we have all of those during the year.

 

[piper_chuck]

I think some folks are missing the point. The US-1 Award separates the Best from the Rest. Making it easy for everyone to win is LAME and boring. I don't think I would want a US-1 simply by winning a heat race. I think planning the budget, playing politics with the family and job, and sacrificing a whole bunch of $$$ makes it all worth it; that is half the battle. I never heard of a Champion at anything who did not sacrifice a LOT to get there. No Pain No Gain. With the way the format was/is set up there is no question the winner earned it.

No, people are not missing the point. There is nothing EASY about rising to the top of a large number of people in a heat race. It takes a fast boat, good preparation, and good driving. When the question came up about which has more prestige, beating 60 other racers in heat racing or 10 others in a combined heat and time trials I know which one I chose.

Many people have spoken clearly with their choice of races to attend. The length of time required to compete at the Internats is keeping many good racers away. Which has more prestige, beating the best of the best, or just those who can afford to attend a very long event for what amounts to a small amount of running per class for the time and money invested?

Please take a look at how US-1 scoring is calculated. With The Trophey Trials you get to put yourself up against EVERYONE you are competing with. With heat racing you are NOT beating 60 other heat racers you are racing maybe five racers at a time per round. After attrition maybe two or three. Yes it is tough but strategic too.

With an elimination style of heat racing, some number of rounds will decide a subset of racers who are the best. These people then race head to head for some additional rounds to determine who's best.

 

[Ron Zaker Jr]

I think it is better to have a Internats that represents the majority of the member of the IMPBA and attracts more than just a small group of people.
Stop and think about it. What has more prestige Winning National Champ for beating group of 60 people or US-1 for beating 10?

10 People????

I think that the KEY is to hold Trophy Trials before heat racing so people can make the decision whether to attend or not.

They will know when heat racing starts and can arrive then.

Would save a ton of time for people who do not want to either take off that much time or don't want to run for US#1.

With the Specialty events at the end, it gives all the flexibility to the contestants.

Chris:

The RC Cars have grown continuously over the years and the format that they use is similar to what you describe.

World of Outlaws, Sprints, Midgets, etc all use the heat qualifying system to the A, B, C, etc Mains. That way it is progressive to get into the run for the Championship.

As you remember, the Hydro Masters used a format similar to this and it was highly successful and the most competitive race that I have ever attended. If IMPBA decided to use that format, I would be a happy racer.

But, I love the Internats Format with Trophy Trials BEFORE heat racing.

Just want to see the awarding of US#1 mean that the person has really excelled. Not just another heat race, we have all of those during the year.

geesh,I guess not enough people have actually attended to understand it all.

 

[Marty Davis]

I think it is better to have a Internats that represents the majority of the member of the IMPBA and attracts more than just a small group of people.
Stop and think about it. What has more prestige Winning National Champ for beating group of 60 people or US-1 for beating 10?

10 People????

I think that the KEY is to hold Trophy Trials before heat racing so people can make the decision whether to attend or not.

They will know when heat racing starts and can arrive then.

Would save a ton of time for people who do not want to either take off that much time or don't want to run for US#1.

With the Specialty events at the end, it gives all the flexibility to the contestants.

Chris:

The RC Cars have grown continuously over the years and the format that they use is similar to what you describe.

World of Outlaws, Sprints, Midgets, etc all use the heat qualifying system to the A, B, C, etc Mains. That way it is progressive to get into the run for the Championship.

As you remember, the Hydro Masters used a format similar to this and it was highly successful and the most competitive race that I have ever attended. If IMPBA decided to use that format, I would be a happy racer.

But, I love the Internats Format with Trophy Trials BEFORE heat racing.

Just want to see the awarding of US#1 mean that the person has really excelled. Not just another heat race, we have all of those during the year.

geesh,I guess not enough people have actually attended to understand it all.

Ron Zaker, Jr sure understands the Masters Format. He has won more Green Jackets than anyone over the years that it was held.

He also understands what it takes to win US#1's, as he has won several.

 

[Andy Greene]

I will say that Im no where near the caliber of racer to chase the prestige of a US-1 title yet,(for those of you that have one or more-hats off-you earned it) the format of time trials then heat racing is exciting. I would like that style format, as I have always wanted to do time trials. For me it would be more for the excitement of racing with the best guys around in a time trial format , then go heat racing and see how it plays out.

Esp if that was in our back yard one day

Andy

 

[Chris Wood]

i agree marty,

it would save some time.. and money for people.. plus it opens doors for people to try something they may or may not have ever done before..

chris

 

[Norm Doerr]

I will say that Im no where near the caliber of racer to chase the prestige of a US-1 title yet,(for those of you that have one or more-hats off-you earned it) the format of time trials then heat racing is exciting. I would like that style format, as I have always wanted to do time trials. For me it would be more for the excitement of racing with the best guys around in a time trial format , then go heat racing and see how it plays out.
Esp if that was in our back yard one day

Andy

Andy;

You are very capable of driving at the Nats. Especially after racing with the crowd we have here in District 3, this is a very competative District. The only thing you would need to do is set up the boat...and leave it alone.. also DONT' SQUEEZE THE NEEDLE TOO MUCH...Oh and change the bearings before you go.

 

[BobFerguson]

Hi Guys,

Im Going to start by saying i never really could understand how the nats worked untill i talked to a person that has been around this for a long long time and i asked him to help me understand how the nats really works. He layed it out and i have to say i really liked the idea of the time trials. Now i wish there was more of this than heat racing with 5 or 6 boats running around with me on the course i never wanted to do this for the fact that it could a bad out come on my part lets face it if you dont have the years like ron, steve, stu, chris, and so on its kinda scary because you dont want to look like a fool out there. If there were more run against the clock you could not keep me at home thats for sure I WOULD LOVE IT. Heat racing with other boats is really not me but i have to learn and i look up to the guys that have done it for years. If i spent the time racing with others than building riggers i would be better off im sure. But no matter i hope the time trials stick around because i would love to do this.

Somthing that greg said also got my eye was the thread about the AMA and having the nats in one place and the pond at that site THATS A GOOD THING if that were to happen just think about that for awhile and it makes more sence to me thats for sure. There is a door open there that everyone should look into or think about what he is saying. I know alot of you dont know me but im sure that is going to change ill be around more and more as time goes on.But the people that i have met are GREAT and im sure most of you on here are the same way. I have just as much fun going to the race and joking around with you guys if im not racing Thats what its all about anyways HAVING A BLAST......................................... Take care all..........Bob Ferguson JAGUAR HYDROS B)

 

[Joe Warren]

I think it is better to have a Internats that represents the majority of the member of the IMPBA and attracts more than just a small group of people.
Stop and think about it. What has more prestige Winning National Champ for beating group of 60 people or US-1 for beating 10?

10 People????

I think that the KEY is to hold Trophy Trials before heat racing so people can make the decision whether to attend or not.

They will know when heat racing starts and can arrive then.

Would save a ton of time for people who do not want to either take off that much time or don't want to run for US#1.

With the Specialty events at the end, it gives all the flexibility to the contestants.

Chris:

The RC Cars have grown continuously over the years and the format that they use is similar to what you describe.

World of Outlaws, Sprints, Midgets, etc all use the heat qualifying system to the A, B, C, etc Mains. That way it is progressive to get into the run for the Championship.

As you remember, the Hydro Masters used a format similar to this and it was highly successful and the most competitive race that I have ever attended. If IMPBA decided to use that format, I would be a happy racer.

But, I love the Internats Format with Trophy Trials BEFORE heat racing.

Just want to see the awarding of US#1 mean that the person has really excelled. Not just another heat race, we have all of those during the year.

IMPBA Doubles Heat racing points when you transfer into US-1. I believe it is Much Harder to win a US-1 on the current format of heat racing before the Oval-Saw events. You must do well in heat racing to be a US-1 winner. If the format is flipped. There needs to be a Maxium number of boats you can enter in US 1 classes. If Not? you end up with 200 Plus boat running saw-oval for 3-4 days. We have seen this before in Sarasota Fl. WE did not heat rac untill Mid day on Wed. The club liked it.... they were rolling in the US-1 entry monies.. :blink: Many were passing out from Heat, Some Bordom. :lol: The rest were on Fire Ant Patrol!!.

 

[Mark Grannis]

I think it is better to have a Internats that represents the majority of the member of the IMPBA and attracts more than just a small group of people.
Stop and think about it. What has more prestige Winning National Champ for beating group of 60 people or US-1 for beating 10?

10 People????

I think that the KEY is to hold Trophy Trials before heat racing so people can make the decision whether to attend or not.

They will know when heat racing starts and can arrive then.

Would save a ton of time for people who do not want to either take off that much time or don't want to run for US#1.

With the Specialty events at the end, it gives all the flexibility to the contestants.

Chris:

The RC Cars have grown continuously over the years and the format that they use is similar to what you describe.

World of Outlaws, Sprints, Midgets, etc all use the heat qualifying system to the A, B, C, etc Mains. That way it is progressive to get into the run for the Championship.

As you remember, the Hydro Masters used a format similar to this and it was highly successful and the most competitive race that I have ever attended. If IMPBA decided to use that format, I would be a happy racer.

But, I love the Internats Format with Trophy Trials BEFORE heat racing.

Just want to see the awarding of US#1 mean that the person has really excelled. Not just another heat race, we have all of those during the year.

geesh,I guess not enough people have actually attended to understand it all.

Ron Zaker, Jr sure understands the Masters Format. He has won more Green Jackets than anyone over the years that it was held.

He also understands what it takes to win US#1's, as he has won several.

When the timed events are ran first people have the choice to run them for US1 or not. Then heat racing is scheduled and if that's where you get your fix be there. Next comes the specialty classes if that's where your boat floats...great! Show up and bring it.

This format allows for the minimum waste in down time by the contestant on their own accord. Each participant can get what they want when the Internats uses this format. It also gives the opportunity to cross pollinate RC Boats! It is and always will be a time consuming event to run. That is why the IMPBA Board has the responsibility in awarding this event only to the most qualified clubs / groups. Cudos to the IMPBA Board and Ohio club for stepping up to salvage this year's nats. I know it should not have been necessary for any reason!

What is surprising to me, everyone is missing or not willing to recognizing we ALL get to come together for the big PARTY!! You are among your peers, and if you trophy it is recognized at the National Regatta.

MG