IMPBA noise rule & dB meters

[Don Ferrette]

And some people will always cheat... That's just the nature of people, and what keeps the tech inspectors on their toes.

I think stricter rules along the lines of what the Europeans race are the answer, along with the list of approved parts, and revised thinking centered around making the boats quieter. The end results WILL be quieter boats, and little drop in speeds. I think it's either that, or we'll all be running electric (not that it's a bad thing).

The Europeans use the dB meter, you're either below the limit or you're not. No "approved" lists, no bias towards manufacturers vs. homemade stuff, etc. Over there you meet it or you go home..............

 

[330T]

The Europeans use the dB meter, you're either below the limit or you're not. No "approved" lists, no bias towards manufacturers vs. homemade stuff, etc. Over there you meet it or you go home..............

and thats the way it should be

 

[piper_chuck]

And some people will always cheat... That's just the nature of people, and what keeps the tech inspectors on their toes.

I think stricter rules along the lines of what the Europeans race are the answer, along with the list of approved parts, and revised thinking centered around making the boats quieter. The end results WILL be quieter boats, and little drop in speeds. I think it's either that, or we'll all be running electric (not that it's a bad thing).

The Europeans use the dB meter...

Which one?

 

[waltr]

Does anyone have a copy of the Euro rules?

Maybe we should all read it before we critasize anything.

Obviously the rules work there and have been working.

I know a DB meter is a must!

A pre approved supplier is nothing more than R/C politics in my book.

If I can make a pipe quieter and faster than say a Cooper(just an example)in my machine shop,

no one can tell me I can't run it.Including Mounts,stuffing box etc....

A pre approved list, there are already people that have figured a way around it.

And Don's right,I'm also one that can cut a pipe,modify it and wella,no DB Meter,how you gonna catch me?

Also,Duane,no offense,but the USRA is the biggest bunch of cheaters I have ever seen.I know,I was a factory sponsored pro racer for many years and had my own raceway for divisional races.I've seen it all and know all of the manufacturers. Just because the arm has a 12 tag in it,do you really think it's a 12? :lol: :lol: .Not on your life.I've seen plenty of cheater stuff right from the manufacturers.The biggest cheaters are the group 27 guys.If you don't cheat with them,You'll be 10 laps down in a 3 min heat.USRA isn't a good example.

It's funny,if being quiet was good for 2 mph,we'd spend $1000 on a pipe.

But we also need to know more about the soft rubber mounts and the stuffing boxes too.

One more thing,even the $250 DB meters , although self calibrating,are +/- 1.5 db. How do they do it across the big pond.

 

[AWaddle322]

And some people will always cheat... That's just the nature of people, and what keeps the tech inspectors on their toes.

I think stricter rules along the lines of what the Europeans race are the answer, along with the list of approved parts, and revised thinking centered around making the boats quieter. The end results WILL be quieter boats, and little drop in speeds. I think it's either that, or we'll all be running electric (not that it's a bad thing).

The Europeans use the dB meter...

Which one?

It must not be the radio shack meter because John brown was using the 40 pipe that Andy won the worlds with and it was considerably louder than 80 db's. Actually the quitest boat at the internats was an electric boats and they were in the 82 to 86 db range. Makes you wonder how some of the over seas guys are getting to less than 80 dbs with nitro motors (all this is assuming that Evansville db meters are corrrect).

I am also sure that I read that they had become lax on the 80 dbs.

Allen

 

[oldlugs]

...Also,Duane,no offense,but the USRA is the biggest bunch of cheaters I have ever seen.I know,I was a factory sponsored pro racer for many years and had my own raceway for divisional races.I've seen it all and know all of the manufacturers. Just because the arm has a 12 tag in it,do you really think it's a 12? :lol: :lol: .Not on your life.I've seen plenty of cheater stuff right from the manufacturers.The biggest cheaters are the group 27 guys.If you don't cheat with them,You'll be 10 laps down in a 3 min heat.USRA isn't a good example....

Just an example of the approved parts list... I know USRA racers love to bend rules... I've bent a few myself over the years. Now where did I put those 35 turn 27 arms...

Duane

 

[SayMikey]

...Also,Duane,no offense,but the USRA is the biggest bunch of cheaters I have ever seen.I know,I was a factory sponsored pro racer for many years and had my own raceway for divisional races.I've seen it all and know all of the manufacturers. Just because the arm has a 12 tag in it,do you really think it's a 12? :lol: :lol: .Not on your life.I've seen plenty of cheater stuff right from the manufacturers.The biggest cheaters are the group 27 guys.If you don't cheat with them,You'll be 10 laps down in a 3 min heat.USRA isn't a good example....

Just an example of the approved parts list... I know USRA racers love to bend rules... I've bent a few myself over the years. Now where did I put those 35 turn 27 arms...

Duane

It seems to me there should be 2 commitees,one to find a cure to test noise and another to make and test pipes,mufflers and ways to quiet down boats . Mike

 

[AWaddle322]

Does anyone have a copy of the Euro rules?

Maybe we should all read it before we critasize anything.

Obviously the rules work there and have been working.

I know a DB meter is a must!

A pre approved supplier is nothing more than R/C politics in my book.

If I can make a pipe quieter and faster than say a Cooper(just an example)in my machine shop,

no one can tell me I can't run it.Including Mounts,stuffing box etc....

A pre approved list, there are already people that have figured a way around it.

And Don's right,I'm also one that can cut a pipe,modify it and wella,no DB Meter,how you gonna catch me?

Also,Duane,no offense,but the USRA is the biggest bunch of cheaters I have ever seen.I know,I was a factory sponsored pro racer for many years and had my own raceway for divisional races.I've seen it all and know all of the manufacturers. Just because the arm has a 12 tag in it,do you really think it's a 12? :lol: :lol: .Not on your life.I've seen plenty of cheater stuff right from the manufacturers.The biggest cheaters are the group 27 guys.If you don't cheat with them,You'll be 10 laps down in a 3 min heat.USRA isn't a good example.

It's funny,if being quiet was good for 2 mph,we'd spend $1000 on a pipe.

But we also need to know more about the soft rubber mounts and the stuffing boxes too.

One more thing,even the $250 DB meters , although self calibrating,are +/- 1.5 db. How do they do it across the big pond.

Walter,

I have been unable to find a meter at any price that was any more accurate than +/- 1 db (and these at 1 db are very expensive). Everyone of us who work in a construction or indutrial job deal with OSHA everyday with there guidelines. Everyone that drives through road construction is supposedly as safe as Osha knows how to make it because road crews have to use OSHA guidelines. The Occupational Safety Hazoroudus Administraition (OSHA) was formed to protect us at works. it defines things that you would not believe like a drinking cooler must have a trash can with 4 feet but not closer than 2 feet (this is to help control airborn disease). If a standard for measuring noise is acceptable for our everyday life than it should be acceptable for our hobbie as well. Osha uses meter with this same +/- 1.5 db. You are not going to bve able as long as there is a db rule in place to set your boat up 91 dbs and be legal every were you race but there is also no need in meter being upto 7 db different And some may be further out than that. If osha says that the meter should be calabrated everyday and that if the tempature or humidity changed drammitacally it should be calabrated, they havve a reason for this, because you can bet there enforcment officers do not enjoy the extra work.

I would really be interested in knowing how they do it across the big pond to. which db meter , what distance, what is the ruling if there is 2 boats with in a couple of feet of each other, what if the wind is blowing directly into the meter and it is more than 80 dbs.

 

[Brian Schymik]

Well this is good. A lot more constructive than last week.

Allen has made some great observations.

The idea about the foam under the meter has a LOT of merit. We should really get this evaluated asap.

The meters at evansville were all on tripods...when someone else came by with their own meter to compare it, they were always handheld! I bet that most people test at their home pond with a handheld meter too!!!

I believe, and Andy Brown knows much better, that the Naviga guys use Much lower nitro content. So John Brown's pipe ( legal in Europe) might have been illegal here due to more nitro used here. Just thinking...need to confirm that with Andy.

The good meter that Allen talks about could be a IMPBA purchase that goes with the Timing sets for records and the Internats.

I also agree that taking the MAX sound reading would be best.. and increasing the db accordingly would be appropriate. BTW on the radio shack meter there is a MAX button that does that function.. then it holds the number to show the highest reading on screen for a few seconds.

Keep up the constructive discussion.

Brian

 

[Don Ferrette]

.......... but there is also no need in meter being upto 7 db different And some may be further out than that.

This part of what Allen just said is dead nut on the money & a HUGE part of the equation, actually the very FIRST step. We need to have all our meters calibrated for maximum accuracy between 90- 100dB (yes this can be done). Until we are all ON THE SAME PAGE none of this means squat. Even we folks on the committee looking into this can't go much further until we are all calibrated to the same standard. It absolutely must start there ..........

 

[AWaddle322]

.......... but there is also no need in meter being upto 7 db different And some may be further out than that.

This part of what Allen just said is dead nut on the money & a HUGE part of the equation, actually the very FIRST step. We need to have all our meters calibrated for maximum accuracy between 90- 100dB (yes this can be done). Until we are all ON THE SAME PAGE none of this means squat. Even we folks on the committee looking into this can't go much further until we are all calibrated to the same standard. It absolutely must start there ..........

This brings up another part of the equation. it seems they make 2 differnt calabrators one for 96 db and one for 114 db. I belive the 96 db calabrator would be much more accurate.

Allen

 

[Mark Bullard]

Some people just read what they want to read. I have made referance to this post many times but no one sees it. It was made by Dave Marles on post# 30 earlier in these posts. He says that:

Quote:

I operated the noise meters too and DQ 'd plenty but eventually people stopped arguing and devoted their energies to what was important.

Incidentally, the noise rules are relaxed for Naviga World Champs (although I'm sure it would be denied) or many riggers wouldnt be running.

Dave

End Quote:

Now you all think that the europeans have it all working. If you read the last pargraph you will see that they don't.

Mark Bullard

 

[AWaddle322]

Well this is good. A lot more constructive than last week.

Allen has made some great observations.

The idea about the foam under the meter has a LOT of merit. We should really get this evaluated asap.

The meters at evansville were all on tripods...when someone else came by with their own meter to compare it, they were always handheld! I bet that most people test at their home pond with a handheld meter too!!!

I believe, and Andy Brown knows much better, that the Naviga guys use Much lower nitro content. So John Brown's pipe ( legal in Europe) might have been illegal here due to more nitro used here. Just thinking...need to confirm that with Andy.

The good meter that Allen talks about could be a IMPBA purchase that goes with the Timing sets for records and the Internats.

I also agree that taking the MAX sound reading would be best.. and increasing the db accordingly would be appropriate. BTW on the radio shack meter there is a MAX button that does that function.. then it holds the number to show the highest reading on screen for a few seconds.

Keep up the constructive discussion.

Brian

Brian i would also assume that it was not the same boat as i think I rember John saying he had to build all new boats when Andy got home because Andy sold all of them. There are a lot of factors.

I am just wondering if the difference we may have seen may have had something with the boats coming out of corner and then being read (motor working harder) Why was this rule changed from start line to buoy one (last years rule) to buoy 6 to the finish line (this years rule) ? Can anyone answere this. As already discused John Equi sayed there would have been 9 boats illegal at 92 dbs at 2005 internats and there were 17 warning given this year. john also said that the meter he used at 2005 nats was provided to him by lafluer. If it because the motor is working harder coming out of the turns this is something the committee needs to know.

Thinking out loud again,

Allen

 

[Grimracer]

It does not FIX all.. Guys were crabbing about there pipes.. adding mufflers on mufflers.. I understand its not going to fix all..

it does however END THE PIPE DEBATE.. it gets the MFGs involved (this is lacking in our CULT sport) and because of this its causing a decline in numbers. Why is it we are having a hard time getting K+B and Picco.. I bet picco is saying why do marine.. They are weak and do not have the numbers the cars have… do you think its because we run on water and they on land.. in part ya.. but you can not and most do not design and build there own pipes, chassis, hop up parts and all the junk that goes with it.. you buy it.. in racing you HAVE TO BUY IT.. in ROAR anyway..

http://www.roarracing.com/approvals.php

And YEA.. Maybe we all run the same shaft, prop and whatever makes BETTER RC BOATING.. sure that’s not the answer but you must get the idea..

BIGGEST issue.. IMPBA RACERS ARE MAKING THE RULES.. do you think this happens in NASCAR.. not a chance.. can you see Curt Bush and Kyle Petty making the rules?.. what the heck..

NOW.. until we have a body that can do this for our little hobby (aint going to happen) we best get with the program..

If we know making our boats run quieter takes running the stuffing tube in silicone then lest do it for gods sake.. lets all do it.. lets make it a rule.. heck i don’t know...

Mike

 

[Scott Norris]

Well I found the FSRV Rules in the UK and here's the link.

http://www.modelboatracing.co.uk/naviga/MU...ULES%202006.doc

See section 3.1.5

I have no idea how they can get below 80DB at 30 Meters. Sounds to me like the rule was written as a static measurement at a certain distance on 1 boat at a time. Very vauge though because at what throttle is this measurement taken? I doubt this rule will help us at all.

 

[Don Ferrette]

it does however END THE PIPE DEBATE.. it gets the MFGs involved (this is lacking in our CULT sport) and because of this its causing a decline in numbers.

Hmmmm, maybe.... if nobody cheats. But the pipes I'm testing are from one of those mfg's you speak of & they gave me a very different story which I have already shared but here it is again-

"Last week I had an interesting conversation with a pipe manufacturer who told me they can make marine quiet pipes to work quite well & that a number of years back they were well on the way to doing so but when the OPS muffled pipes were imported into the states & they didn't work worth a crap because they were rather undersized by application, it killed the marine muffled pipe market as everyone assumed muffled pipes didn't work"

We only have ourselves to blame for the thin selection of pipes currently available in the U.S. that are truly quiet. Why on earth would any pipe manufacturer want to make a bunch of pipes that won't sell because nobody runs them? Well now things are going to change as our dB rule has created that market. I truly wish I could have tested these new pipes sitting on my twin this past weekend but it will have to wait until this Sunday. As I mentioned before these were made specifically for the big block motors so I feel confident they will work & be very quiet. And if they do perform as expected there are already part #s assigned to them & will be available to any & all who will want them. B)

I'm doing the best I can to help get something out there that works. Some of you should ask yourselves what are you or could you be doing to help make it better ............ :blink:

 

[Mark Bullard]

Well I found the FSRV Rules in the UK and here's the link.

http://www.modelboatracing.co.uk/naviga/MU...ULES%202006.doc

See section 3.1.5

I have no idea how they can get below 80DB at 30 Meters. Sounds to me like the rule was written as a static measurement at a certain distance on 1 boat at a time. Very vauge though because at what throttle is this measurement taken? I doubt this rule will help us at all.

Scott,

Not trying to shoot you down. I look at the rules and if I read it right it said 10 meters. And you are right it does not say how it is measured. But let say it measures from the shore line. 10 meters is better than 25 ft.

I did the math and 10 meters is 32.8 ft. that would be 7.8 ft or just about 8 ft further than our rule. Now if it did say 30 meters that would be 98 ft. At that distance nitro pipes on big motors would not have a problem making it to 80dB.

Mark Bullard

 

[topfuel443]

there is a more detailed version NAVIGA noise rule in this link. It starts at section 3.3.3 and goes from there.

http://www.hkmta.net/competition_rules_2003_fsr_h_v.html

~James

That is from 2003, not sure how much has changed from then, but the wording is VERY vague. one thing stood out at me

Quote:

2) It is not necessary to pass the noise measuring equipment at

full speed.

End Quote

It look like they have a different method for each type of hull class.

~James

 

[Don Ferrette]

Check this out- http://www.intlwaters.com/index.php?s=&sho...ndpost&p=156373

 

[Mark Bullard]

You know a lot of you are looking at this the wrong way. Now if we want to lower the noise at our races that is fine, no problem. But don't say it is because we won't lose lakes. There has not been one lake lost to noise in this country. Now in saying that let me explain. I know that there has been some lakes lost, but why? Well if the true be know. These nice lakes that we have run on for years grew houses around them. I know for a fact that it happen to the Birmingham Al club and it happen to the Atlanta club three times until they came to the place they are now. Now lets look at Atlanta. They are in a industrial park, no problem there. Why, one of the major factors is the lake is right under the flying line of the runways of the Altanta Airport. Anyone that has ever been there know that when the jets take off you can't hear anything. Also the man that owns the property is a big racing fan and puts a lot of money into racing. The Evansville club lake is set in the middle of commerial property. With all of the motel and hotels and eating places. Now do you thing that they are going to complain about noise. I don't think so. Why, they like the money we bring in. And the thing is this will be true for all of the cities around that allow us to run in there lakes. Think about what I just said. A racer goes to a race like the Internats. He will be there for at least 10 days and nights. You racers that have been to the nats know what I am talking about. And you others do the math. Now a host club goes to a city and ask to use a lake to put on a event like this. When you tell the city that you will have about a 150 racers at the lake for about 10 days. The city will just see dollar signs and will not be worried about a little noise.

Now this goes along with this present rule. If we keep making this noise issuse so hard to live with. Then the racers will stop coming to the races. And yes this is more than likey why there has not been anyone step up for the 2007 Internats.

Mark Bullard