IMPBA "F" class

[Brad Christy]

Nevermind. Mark beat me to it.

 

[Grimracer]

Chuck,

No. An on-board battery for use with a glow plug is NOT illegal. It is still a glow ignition system and NOT a spark ignition system. Don't try and read more into the rule than what is written.

Thanks. Brad.

Titan Racing Components

BlackJack Hydros

Model Machine And Precision LLC

Wow.. then the 2003 B tunnel US-1 win is null and void.... The saw pass was done with the glow lighter on the plug.. just the same...Not sure Im buying it..

Grim

Chuck,

No. An on-board battery for use with a glow plug is NOT illegal. It is still a glow ignition system and NOT a spark ignition system. Don't try and read more into the rule than what is written.

Thanks. Brad.

Titan Racing Components

BlackJack Hydros

Model Machine And Precision LLC

Wow.. then the 2003 B tunnel US-1 win is null and void.... The saw pass was done with the glow lighter on the plug.. just the same...Not sure Im buying it..

Grim

On board power (ignition) to a glow plug other than the engine's own energy is allowed. Brad wrote correctly, it is not against the rules.

One side effect, those lean runs are much shorter and can be expensive.

Andy,

I think your inquiry based on the present conditions has value and warrants discussion for F Hydro and F mono; however, I do think some unintended consequences would occur.

1. A boater could enter a gas rigger, gas sport hydro, gas cat or thunderboat in the F hydro class. These are major speed differences.

2. Participation of the nitro boater could be pushed out of the class based on timing of entry.

Got ya.. my bad... grim

 

[Andy Brown]

Marc Grannis wrote:

Andy,

I think your inquiry based on the present conditions has value and warrants discussion for F Hydro and F mono; however, I do think some unintended consequences would occur.

1. A boater could enter a gas rigger, gas sport hydro, gas cat or thunderboat in the F hydro class. These are major speed differences.

2. Participation of the nitro boater could be pushed out of the class based on timing of entry.

Mark,

When it comes to IMPBA rules I'll will admit, that I am a Purist.

The very reason I develope "outriggers only" is because there are no rule limitations. In IMPBA, if it's not a mono it's a hydro..and if it is under 25# and 60", it's legal!

I have always felt the same way about the IMPBA engine classifications. That they are purely based on "Cubic Inches" and anything an engine designer or modeler can create is legal to use in IMPBA competition, aside from dangerous fuels, which is addressed in the IMPBA rule book.

I am all about maximum creativity among all r/c boat racers.

The IMPBA "F" engine classifications and Hydro definition has been with us for decades. The boats and engines that compete in the class have evolved over the decades to what competitors precieve as the best equiptment for competing with success in the class.

I can remember a time in history when canards and even catamarans dominated the large hydro classes. If I remember correctly a canard won the prestigious Indy Unlimited two years in a row during the mid 80's and I saw Aeromarine Cats winning in the nitro hydro classes at the Orlando Winternats in the mid 80's. Why did they do this? Because they had the best combination for success! Were they the fastest? No! Perhaps it's a good thing a guy developed a boat called Mongoose that put Riggers back in domination of the Hydro classes in the late 80's....or perhaps the outrigger guys would have banded together to vote the Cat's and Canards out of the hydro classes.

This brings up a major point!

IMPBA "F" Hydro has included a very wide range of hulls and engines going back some 60 years. At one point in history Stepped monos (Octura White Heat) and Ignitions engines were precived as the equiptment needed to attain the best success. Today it is precived that a single 90/100 nitro rigger or Twin nitro rigger will increase the chances for best success. Over the years a wide combination of equiptment has be tried by the competitors.

I have been attending R/C boat race events since 1975. In these past 38 years, I must say, I have a very difficult time remembering an event were the racers were running equipment that they thought would not be competitive. So to say that someone may enter a Thunderboat in F Hydro at the IMPBA Internats is about the same as saying that someone might show up at the Internats thinking that he will be competitive with a Supre Tiger 71 powered Big Hoss. The thing here is that under this new IMPBA "RULING" the ST 71 powered Hoss is still legal....even though it would only run about 55 mph.

I am all for Apples running against Apples! It makes for great competition! However, The IMPBA F hydro class has had the same rules for decades. I believe to change what has been long running and proven to produce some great competition for decades should not be changed. If a group of competitors wish to make an exclusive class for their favorite type of hulls and engines, then they should lobby to creat a special "Pink Boat" class to suit their desires, not MODIFY the Rules of a class (F Hydro) that has been long standing for decades.

My major point here. Keep IMPBA F HYDRO the simple rule that it has always been and let it evolve as it always has. If a group wants to ensure that they can have a pure Single 90/Twin 90 nitro class, then they are free to propose to make that a class.

I have one last point to make! There is no greater a major speed difference between boats than a 90 mph Twin nitro rigger racing around the course and a DEAD Twin nitro rigger Floating in lane 3!

 

[Tony Jacuzzi]

Great Post Andy

Marc Grannis wrote:

Andy,

I think your inquiry based on the present conditions has value and warrants discussion for F Hydro and F mono; however, I do think some unintended consequences would occur.

1. A boater could enter a gas rigger, gas sport hydro, gas cat or thunderboat in the F hydro class. These are major speed differences.

2. Participation of the nitro boater could be pushed out of the class based on timing of entry.

Mark,

When it comes to IMPBA rules I'll will admit, that I am a Purist.

The very reason I develope "outriggers only" is because there are no rule limitations. In IMPBA, if it's not a mono it's a hydro..and if it is under 25# and 60", it's legal!

I have always felt the same way about the IMPBA engine classifications. That they are purely based on "Cubic Inches" and anything an engine designer or modeler can create is legal to use in IMPBA competition, aside from dangerous fuels, which is addressed in the IMPBA rule book.

I am all about maximum creativity among all r/c boat racers.

The IMPBA "F" engine classifications and Hydro definition has been with us for decades. The boats and engines that compete in the class have evolved over the decades to what competitors precieve as the best equiptment for competing with success in the class.

I can remember a time in history when canards and even catamarans dominated the large hydro classes. If I remember correctly a canard won the prestigious Indy Unlimited two years in a row during the mid 80's and I saw Aeromarine Cats winning in the nitro hydro classes at the Orlando Winternats in the mid 80's. Why did they do this? Because they had the best combination for success! Were they the fastest? No! Perhaps it's a good thing a guy developed a boat called Mongoose that put Riggers back in domination of the Hydro classes in the late 80's....or perhaps the outrigger guys would have banded together to vote the Cat's and Canards out of the hydro classes.

This brings up a major point!

IMPBA "F" Hydro has included a very wide range of hulls and engines going back some 60 years. At one point in history Stepped monos (Octura White Heat) and Ignitions engines were precived as the equiptment needed to attain the best success. Today it is precived that a single 90/100 nitro rigger or Twin nitro rigger will increase the chances for best success. Over the years a wide combination of equiptment has be tried by the competitors.

I have been attending R/C boat race events since 1975. In these past 38 years, I must say, I have a very difficult time remembering an event were the racers were running equipment that they thought would not be competitive. So to say that someone may enter a Thunderboat in F Hydro at the IMPBA Internats is about the same as saying that someone might show up at the Internats thinking that he will be competitive with a Supre Tiger 71 powered Big Hoss. The thing here is that under this new IMPBA "RULING" the ST 71 powered Hoss is still legal....even though it would only run about 55 mph.

I am all for Apples running against Apples! It makes for great competition! However, The IMPBA F hydro class has had the same rules for decades. I believe to change what has been long running and proven to produce some great competition for decades should not be changed. If a group of competitors wish to make an exclusive class for their favorite type of hulls and engines, then they should lobby to creat a special "Pink Boat" class to suit their desires, not MODIFY the Rules of a class (F Hydro) that has been long standing for decades.

My major point here. Keep IMPBA F HYDRO the simple rule that it has always been and let it evolve as it always has. If a group wants to ensure that they can have a pure Single 90/Twin 90 nitro class, then they are free to propose to make that a class.

I have one last point to make! There is no greater a major speed difference between boats than a 90 mph Twin nitro rigger racing around the course and a DEAD Twin nitro rigger Floating in lane 3!

 

[Mark Grannis]

Andy,
LOVED, I mean LOOOVED the "pink boat" comment....you made my day! I couldn't wait to get home to express my joy of that comment. You do know first hand the only thing worse than owning a pink boat...is losing to one!!! (he he he)

I wrongfully guided the topic toward speed difference as a concern. I do not have any ill feelings about boats that finish and are consistent vs super fast boats like yours. We all get to drive around them dead, going slow or in the trees. I made that statement knowing how the board has used safety as a means to an end. Maybe i should not have gone there, but i did.

So here is the participation portion of why gas and nitro should be separate. I believe if F/X Hydro is only based on engine displacement, i foresee the Nitro boats will suffer. Even though participation in Nitro is growing here in our FL dist. This "Cross Pollination " in F Hydro could make the F/X Hydro nitro class/boat obsolete during a racing season in dist.3.
Example: in the March Brandon race there are currently 10 X Hydros. There are 6 thunder boats, 18 gas cats, 12 gas riggers, and 18 gas sport hydros. If 3 of those contestants decided they wanted to run their boat in X/F hydro someone else just got pushed out. In fact all 10 could be replaced based on time of entry. However the single engine nitro boats do not have any other class to go to.

In our FL district there is room for 260- 300+ Boats at an event. Some people enter 5-8 boats. Brandon has 11 contestants representing 63 boats or 25% of the current boat field. I was messaged by Tom Foley he was going to withdraw to make room for me in 67 hydro. I requested he not do that and allow the "waiting list" process to work out, but Tom graciously withdrew anyway. I don't know if other regions have the abundance of entries for their district races. Maybe they do have room for a "open single engine specialty class". Some of the national events are sold out in a week. Maybe offering 2 sign up periods in RC Racing Events is practical. The number of boats entered at a race will not grow model boating. More People racing will!!!!

This thread is targeted toward IMPBA. Are there restrictions currently in NAMBA? Too easy to predict the demise of the F/X Nitro class. I think this concept is best left to the "Specialty Event" aspect of our sport. I look forward to sharing some ideas with the club i plan on joining later this month.

Last point, for the IMPBA rule not being current is concerning at best.

Andy, much respect for you, and watch out for moving or dead pink boats!

See you soon,
MG

 

[Dan Ellison]

I'll have to look up the exact yr ,but mid 90's I built a boat for Bruce Hanson for the internats with a little old 23cc zenoah. I believe he won F hydro. He sold it to a guy in china. I'll find the yr and photo.

 

[Andy Brown]

Mark, I totally forgot you had pink boats!... the reference was not directed toward you!

I do appogize if the reference to pink boats made you feel personnally attacked. That was in no way my intention.

Number of boat entries per class? Is there a propblem with having 25, 35 or more boats in a class? I remember the days when most all classes had 30+ entries.

I remember being in a field of 49 boats in .40 hydro at the 1978 NAMBA Nats! It was great competition! Perhaps it would be better to have fewer classes at a specific event with more boats per class....the clubs could much easier afford the trophies.

I see that the IMPBA Nirto nats is offering F Hydro, Twin Nitro Hydro, and Single Nitro Hydro. So basically three variations of F hydro. I can not find Single F hydro class in the IMPBA rule book. Is that a separate legal IMPBA class too?

 

[Tom Foley]

Mark , actually I was considering withdrawing from B Hydro and that stil stands as I don't have a carb for the engine at this time . Let me know and we will move over . I sent in my entry fee today so just let me know what you want to do .

I have always have had a reverence for the F /X hydro class and feel I am very fortunate to have some boats at this time that have a chance at being competitive .

The gas sport hydro class was mentioned earlier and I will tell you this is a wickedly competitive class with some great running boats . I would be surprised if one got a great start in lane one you would be hard pressed to get around it without 10 MPH . Lets race , fire is lit !!

 

[Don Ferrette]

I see that the IMPBA Nirto nats is offering F Hydro, Twin Nitro Hydro, and Single Nitro Hydro. So basically three variations of F hydro. I can not find Single F hydro class in the IMPBA rule book. Is that a separate legal IMPBA class too?

The single F hydro class has been offered as a specialty class at the Fall Nats the last couple seasons and has done fairly well.

The 2014 Nitro Nats will run F Hydro and Multi Engine Hydro as National Championship classes with single F Hydro as a specialty class.

 

[Andy Brown]

Thanks Don! Are the rules for single F hydro posted in the Internats entry flyer or in the IMPBA rule book?

 

[Don Ferrette]

Thanks Don! Are the rules for single F hydro posted in the Internats entry flyer or in the IMPBA rule book?

I believe the club will have the rules on the flyer, basically other than being a legal F hydro is a single engine with displacement limit. I think Charleston capped it at something like 1.2" but I can't recall exactly at the moment....might be the meds.

The single F hydro specialty class has been gaining steam at Charleston the last 2 years.

 

[Ty Faust]

I see that the IMPBA Nirto nats is offering F Hydro, Twin Nitro Hydro, and Single Nitro Hydro. So basically three variations of F hydro. I can not find Single F hydro class in the IMPBA rule book. Is that a separate legal IMPBA class too?

The single F hydro class has been offered as a specialty class at the Fall Nats the last couple seasons and has done fairly well.

The 2014 Nitro Nats will run F Hydro and Multi Engine Hydro as National Championship classes with single F Hydro as a specialty class.

Don I wish all clubs would do that ! It would make A more fair and exciting race !

 

[Andy Brown]

Thanks Don! Are the rules for single F hydro posted in the Internats entry flyer or in the IMPBA rule book?

I believe the club will have the rules on the flyer, basically other than being a legal F hydro is a single engine with displacement limit. I think Charleston capped it at something like 1.2" but I can't recall exactly at the moment....might be the meds.

The single F hydro specialty class has been gaining steam at Charleston the last 2 years.

Don wrote:

"basically other than being a legal F hydro is a single engine with displacement limit."

Thank you for that information Don.

So is this a rule that is in the IMPBA rule book? ...and then the clubs decide what the displacement cap is?

If so, I am wondering when the Internats host club will let the contestants know?, ...because currently there is nothing posted in the "full PDF" race flyer concerning "Single F hydro".

 

[Kevin Sheren]

This should clear up the questions posed here.

The minutes have been updated. Please read the entire post on the IMPBA web site.

The pdf files are on the post.

I do not know what happened it was before my time as President. As special thanks to Lynne Rupley our new

IMPBA Secretary for her help!

http://www.impba.net/index.php/forum/29-announcements/673-gas-in-the-f-class

Kevin

 

[Andy Brown]

This should clear up the questions posed here.

The minutes have been updated. Please read the entire post on the IMPBA web site.

The pdf files are on the post.

I do not know what happened it was before my time as President. As special thanks to Lynne Rupley our new

IMPBA Secretary for her help!

http://www.impba.net/index.php/forum/29-announcements/673-gas-in-the-f-class

Kevin

Excellent Kevin! I am glad that Lynne was able to find the records from the 2007 vote!

I just have one new question now that Don F. brought up concerning the specialty class "Single F hydro". John and I would like to enter the IMPBA Nitro nats soon and need to know the rules of that class. I have searched but found nothing so far.

Thanks again Kevin, I know this has been a concern for many the last couple of days.

 

[Jeff Schindler]

Thanks Don! Are the rules for single F hydro posted in the Internats entry flyer or in the IMPBA rule book?

I believe the club will have the rules on the flyer, basically other than being a legal F hydro is a single engine with displacement limit. I think Charleston capped it at something like 1.2" but I can't recall exactly at the moment....might be the meds.

The single F hydro specialty class has been gaining steam at Charleston the last 2 years.

Don wrote:

"basically other than being a legal F hydro is a single engine with displacement limit."

Thank you for that information Don.

So is this a rule that is in the IMPBA rule book? ...and then the clubs decide what the displacement cap is?

If so, I am wondering when the Internats host club will let the contestants know?, ...because currently there is nothing posted in the "full PDF" race flyer concerning "Single F hydro".

Hi Andy, the Nitro Nats flyer doesn't have any rule addendum a for "Single F hydro." From what I understand the rules are the same as F-Hydro with one exception, multiple cylinders are not allowed. The spirit of this specialty class will be to allow single engine F-Hydros to compete against each other in water that is not as disturbed as when racing agains 90 twins. So far the class has a lot of support.

 

[Mark Grannis]

Andy,

In no way was i offended! I had a great laugh.

In D3 and some national events too many classes are being attempted to run in two days. In the past, initial limits were placed on some nitro classes; however, participation is growing and it is tough to overcome what seems to be "the 12 boat entry plateau" currently in place for some nitro classes in our district. We have specific classes that have season points totals. I get that.

My concern is not direted at a gas vs. nitro fight. I'm contemplating a gas boat in my near future...(i hear something spinning). My wish is the number of people racing boats increases over the number of boats a person can run at an event. Gas entering F/X Hydro would harm my wish.

Tom Foley

What carb do you need, or engine are you running? I may be able to help. I'm heading to Brandon this weekend and can bring with me if i have what you need.

MG

 

[Don Ferrette]

This should clear up the questions posed here.

The minutes have been updated. Please read the entire post on the IMPBA web site.

The pdf files are on the post.

I do not know what happened it was before my time as President. As special thanks to Lynne Rupley our new

IMPBA Secretary for her help!

http://www.impba.net/index.php/forum/29-announcements/673-gas-in-the-f-class

Kevin

Excellent Kevin! I am glad that Lynne was able to find the records from the 2007 vote!

I just have one new question now that Don F. brought up concerning the specialty class "Single F hydro". John and I would like to enter the IMPBA Nitro nats soon and need to know the rules of that class. I have searched but found nothing so far.

Thanks again Kevin, I know this has been a concern for many the last couple of days.

Hi Andy,

I believe Mike Schindler is getting the flyer updated with more info on single F hydro. In a nutshell it's any legal F hydro except limited to single cylinder with a 1.20" max. displacement.

 

[Andy Brown]

This should clear up the questions posed here.

The minutes have been updated. Please read the entire post on the IMPBA web site.

The pdf files are on the post.

I do not know what happened it was before my time as President. As special thanks to Lynne Rupley our new

IMPBA Secretary for her help!

http://www.impba.net/index.php/forum/29-announcements/673-gas-in-the-f-class

Kevin

Excellent Kevin! I am glad that Lynne was able to find the records from the 2007 vote!

I just have one new question now that Don F. brought up concerning the specialty class "Single F hydro". John and I would like to enter the IMPBA Nitro nats soon and need to know the rules of that class. I have searched but found nothing so far.

Thanks again Kevin, I know this has been a concern for many the last couple of days.

Hi Andy,

I believe Mike Schindler is getting the flyer updated with more info on single F hydro. In a nutshell it's any legal F hydro except limited to single cylinder with a 1.20" max. displacement.

Thanks for that info Don! That works for me!

David will have to mark his 1.26 Franken-monster motor for F Hydro use only

 

[Andy Brown]

Andy,

In no way was i offended! I had a great laugh.

In D3 and some national events too many classes are being attempted to run in two days. In the past, initial limits were placed on some nitro classes; however, participation is growing and it is tough to overcome what seems to be "the 12 boat entry plateau" currently in place for some nitro classes in our district. We have specific classes that have season points totals. I get that.

My concern is not direted at a gas vs. nitro fight. I'm contemplating a gas boat in my near future...(i hear something spinning). My wish is the number of people racing boats increases over the number of boats a person can run at an event. Gas entering F/X Hydro would harm my wish.

Tom Foley

What carb do you need, or engine are you running? I may be able to help. I'm heading to Brandon this weekend and can bring with me if i have what you need.

MG

Mark, I understand and I fully agree with your wish of increasing contestant count. I have actively been promoting the idea of more racers and less boats per racer for the last couple of years. Hence the new Broward race (Nitro Shootout in August) where they have limited entries to 4 boats per contestant and a minumum number of total classes. We need more of these type of races. I think it will catch on!

On the otherhand Mark, to use the reason for not allowing "sprak Ignition" (I never mentioned the word "gas") to achive the goal of getting more racers per boat vs. more boats per racer is not vailid reasoning. Ok, I understand, that keeps gas hydro boats out of "F" Hydro. What does that do for keeping RTR 18 Hydros, Sport 21 Hydros, 21 Tunnles out of 21 Hydro classes?

Mark, the real solution to your valid wish, is to limit the number of boats per contestant. Additionally, if needed, a boat could be limited to run in only one class per event. All of that could be taylored by each individual club and event to accommodate the variables accordingly.