How to get into FE tunnel the right way.

[Bill Britton]

Doug brought up a good point regarding the P-Spec esc.

Some IMPBA districts have adopted the AQ 7011 as one of the spec esc's for their events, as well as spec motors like the AQ 2030. The WTC race has adopted these rules as well.

NAMBA allows any speed control but requires a spec motor like the AQ 2030.

To allow myself the most flexibility, I chose the AQ esc so that I could race in either IMPBA or NAMBA events.

You really have no advantage running a Turnigy 120 esc vs. the AQ7011. The Turnigy is cheaper ($50) vs. the AQ7011 ($89) But with the motor being the limiting factor, there is no performance gain. I actually ran down a VS1 with a Turnigy esc after jumping the start at the FE Nats. So, take my word for it. There is no performance gain by using a 120 esc with a spec motor.

I don't want this thread to turn into an esc debate. Like Mic stated, that's for another thread. But be aware, if you race in both Namba and Impba, you may want to opt for the Aquacraft esc regadless of the additional $30. If you are only going to race in Namba events, go ahead and get the Turnigy or comparable esc.

/B

 

[Slideblues]

I've been reading along with cha on this,

Marks comment on the lakes 2013,

I feel sorry for the lake patrol telling catfish Joe with his Lowe jon in camo,

and the 35 Johnson his dad gave him, He can no longer check his lines.....Gonna be ugly!

Just so Im clear......

Two of the same hull, setup correct, one nitro and one P spec,

The P spec is faster?

Gene

 

[Bill Britton]

I've been reading along with cha on this,

Marks comment on the lakes 2013, I feel sorry for the lake patrol telling catfish Joe with his Lowe jon in camo and the 35 Johnson his dad gave him he can no longer check his lines.....Gonna be ugly!

Just so Im clear......

Two of the same hull, setup correct, one nitro and one P spec,

The P spec is faster?

Gene

A P-Spec Tunnel is a bit faster than a stock 20 tunnel but not quite as fast as a mod 20 tunnel.

A P-Tunnel will spank your average to above average .45.

 

[Slideblues]

OK, Gotcha Bill,

Thanks....

Gene

 

[RonShaw]

Maybe some of the other FE Tunnel guys will chime in as well................

Ron, the advice given above was spot on. Start with a Spec./ Limited boat and go from there. Check the rules where you plan on racing as some areas limit ESCs in the limited classes. IMPBA D12&13 for example.

You can't go wrong with the Aquacraft UL-1 motor and ESC. Batteries you get what you pay for. If you are a serious about racing in the class, buy quality cells, take care of them and they will last you for a few years.

If I can help you in any way let me know.

[email protected]

Doug

PS You fellas get your Limited boats built and come chase me around the cotton field in Nov. :lol:

http://www.intlwaters.com/index.php?showtopic=47086&pid=425388&st=0entry425388

Bring your P Boats for the Open class! B)

Thanks Doug for the advice and your contact information. You may regret that one!!!!!!!.....hahahaha............ :lol:

Looks like P or P-spec will be the best way to go. I am going to start looking at what items I need and go from there. What batteries do you guys recommend?

 

[HOTWATER]

Hyperion all the way......4S 5000's with a C-rating of 35 or better......Don't go Hong Kong (just my own opinion)

RCLipos.com

Good thread BTW!!

-Kent

 

[Tim_Duggan]

This thread should be pinned! B)

 

[topfuel443]

This thread should be pinned! B)

I agree...

 

[Bill Britton]

One thing thing will need to be done if you use the AQ7011 ESC in P-Spec is replace the Deans connectors.

De-solder the positive and negative leads of the esc from the deans and solder on some good bullet connectors. I personally use 6.5mm bullets but that is just my preference. Most other racers in my area use 6.5's as well so we can share batteries in a pinch.

Always use shrink on the connectors to prevent shorting.

Place a female end on the battery positive lead, male on the battery negative lead. Then a male on the esc positive lead and female on the esc negative lead.

Attached is a photo showing bullets and shrink on a Hyperion battery (note the rubber end cap from Home Depot);

Home Depot and Lowes carry rubber wire rack shelving end caps that happen fit over the male end connectors to prevent shorting as well. They generally come in white and grey, so you can use the white ones when he batteries are charged, and then use the grey ones when the batteries are discharged to let you know the state of the batteries.

As for the esc motor wires, you can leave the oem connectors, but as all racers look for the edge, I opted to replace the stock connectors with 5.5 bullets. Placing the male eds on the motor wires and the females on the esc out wires. Again, most in my area do the same so we can loan a motor if a racer needs one.

You can shorten the wires on both sides of the esc to suit, but as a general rule,do not shorten the wires coming out of the motor as on some motors they are part of the windings. If you need or want to replace the connectors on the motor side, de-solder instead of clipping.

 

[lohring]

The reason P spec power plants are inexpensive is that the current is limited. I wish we could easily do this with a less expensive "fuse" than the motor. I also once thought that the speed controls should be limited. It didn't seem fair that people with Castle Hydra 120s should run with the UL-1 controller. However, now the Sea King/Turnigy 120 is available at a low cost. I agree that the Hyperion cells are currently the best, but I can buy 3 of the lower cost/quality 40C, 5000 mah batteries for the price of one Hyperion 4S pack. All can deliver the needed 150 amps without breaking a sweat. The Hyperion cells have a lower internal resistance, so they will last longer and perform a little better. Overall, the limited class concept has brought sanity back to the electric classes. Once you race a boat that can be throttled from 0 to full speed at the start and will recover from minor (and sometimes not so minor) spills, you won't go back.

Lohring Miller

 

[HTV Boats]

Gabe thanks for pinning. The hardware has been pretty well outlined here and that brings us to what held me back for a while. How do you rig the hardware. Tunnels can be done as Hotwater (Kent) did sealing the whole cowl. He has photo's in his gallery so take a look. Or conventional radio boxes. Feel free to post pics if you have them as that will give everyone how things work. What goes in the radio box is reciever,steering servo, battery and speed control. You don't need a switch or reciever battery as most ESC's have BEC circuits. That and you need to plug and unplug your Lipo's every time you run so easy access like a tape on lid is advised. ESC's and batteries much like your servo and reciever do not work well wet. I have seen batteries outside the sealed box and water like with other batteries may eventually corrode with exposure. Salt or brakish water an you NEED to waterproof very well. Lipos can get wet and dry out similar to Nimh or Nicads but again terminal corrosion is the enemy. I have shorted out a Nimh 1200ma reciever battery and smoked it so doing the same to a 5000ma lipo might be something you do not want to witness.

the Electronic Speed Control is usually placed to the rear on a tunnel to keep the wires short to the motor. Batteries cannot go to far away from the ESC for the same reason. Generally I have seen batteries to the midship or rear with the ESC on top. Depends on room availiable under your cowling. You can make the box big enough to shift the batteries within a few inches forward or to the rear and change your CG. Or I also use velcro on the bottom of the box and with longer steering adjustment I move the whole box. An inch or more is a big swing here. Each boat is different and builders are starting to address this with longer centers without built in risers for tanks or deck bracing.

My last discussion and again welcoming any other ideas is Lipo's. (safety) Buy lipo safe bags they are cheap protection. Only a few bucks. I am not trying to scare anyone as in the short time I have worked with them and watching general practices by racers at the FE nationals, I feel they are a safe stable product handled correctly. Then so is the gas can in your garage but you store it different than a hammer. Being in insurance and training education on house fires, plus knowing some of my customers that have had fires I don't think you can be too careful. Lipo's have had some bad press. Manufacturers are making improvements but you still need to store them correctly. First off when discharged you should bring them back to whats called storage capacity. All the Lipos I have bought and checked come at about 30% charge or 3.9v per individual cell vs 4.2v fully charged. (never go below 3v per cell) So I put them on the charger at the end of the day and bring em up to storage voltage. I am guessing this is the safest place for them voltage wise as being fully charged is not neccesarily bad for a few days.

Then my concern was physical storage. The garage for me was out as in the one in a million chance they self destructed and caught fire I have way too many chemicals in the garage. A cement box would be the best but not practical. An old refrigerator would be sealed and kept cool but not frozen is perfect. Don't have one of them anymore so that means in the house somewhere. Ammo cans seem to be popular also, but I like overkill. My first though was we use small strongboxes to keep documents in and fireproof so it seems batteries might be contained there too. So off to Wally world and a $30 home safe is what I use. Now with my insurance backround that just wasn't enough. I keep the batteries in Lipo safe bags in a strongbox and put the strongbox in an old metal filling cabinate that all papers have been emptied out. May be overkill but lets me sleep at night. Anyone with any other storage ideas please chime in. I do not want to scare anyone as these are very safe batteries used properly but we all have tendencies to cut corners. We must have some firefighters here who have training an opinions.

Hope this all helps anyone considering FE,

Mic

 

[Bill Britton]

The reason P spec power plants are inexpensive is that the current is limited. I wish we could easily do this with a less expensive "fuse" than the motor. I also once thought that the speed controls should be limited. It didn't seem fair that people with Castle Hydra 120s should run with the UL-1 controller. However, now the Sea King/Turnigy 120 is available at a low cost. I agree that the Hyperion cells are currently the best, but I can buy 3 of the lower cost/quality 40C, 5000 mah batteries for the price of one Hyperion 4S pack. All can deliver the needed 150 amps without breaking a sweat. The Hyperion cells have a lower internal resistance, so they will last longer and perform a little better. Overall, the limited class concept has brought sanity back to the electric classes. Once you race a boat that can be throttled from 0 to full speed at the start and will recover from minor (and sometimes not so minor) spills, you won't go back.

Lohring Miller

In my opinion, the cheaper batteries perform just as well as the more costly Hyperions. But they may only last for a season or two instead of 2 - 3 seasons. This may not be a bad thing if you are just getting in and are looking to start without blowing a wad on the more expensive cells. Once you know if you are going to stay in it, then pop for the Hyperions, Thunder Power, etc. Also, with battery C ratings going up every year, replacing the more expensive cells is costlier.

I run my P-Spec on $50 Turnigy's and have found I am not handicapped at all when running against people who run the more expensive batteries. I DO run Hyperions in my full P, but that is only personal preference. A person on a budget with a P-Spec and a full P can get the $50 Turnigy's and run them in both boats.

 

[Bill Britton]

Mic brought up a good point regarding radio boxes.

Here is a shot of my Spec boat radio box;

Note that the esc sits right on top of the battery. The battery can be moved forward or back to suit CG needs.

This photo also shows the modifications needed to covert the Lynx to FE. Simply cut the front bracing using a dremel. The top of the sides and rear of the tank area will also need to be trimmed to accomodate the radio box being where the tank usually resides.

Here is a closeup of the rear of the radio box show how the wires and water lines exit the box.

I epoxied in brass tubing large enough for the esc wires and bullets to pass through, once through I siliconed the void between the wire and brass tube, then used shrink to seal the brass and wire from water entering the radio box. Water passages were created using short pieces of 1/8 brass tubing epoxied through the box with water line on either side.

 

[RonShaw]

One thing thing will need to be done if you use the AQ7011 ESC in P-Spec is replace the Deans connectors.

De-solder the positive and negative leads of the esc from the deans and solder on some good bullet connectors. I personally use 6.5mm bullets but that is just my preference. Most other racers in my area use 6.5's as well so we can share batteries in a pinch.

Always use shrink on the connectors to prevent shorting.

Place a female end on the battery positive lead, male on the battery negative lead. Then a male on the esc positive lead and female on the esc negative lead.

Attached is a photo showing bullets and shrink on a Hyperion battery (note the rubber end cap from Home Depot);

Home Depot and Lowes carry rubber wire rack shelving end caps that happen fit over the male end connectors to prevent shorting as well. They generally come in white and grey, so you can use the white ones when he batteries are charged, and then use the grey ones when the batteries are discharged to let you know the state of the batteries.

As for the esc motor wires, you can leave the oem connectors, but as all racers look for the edge, I opted to replace the stock connectors with 5.5 bullets. Placing the male eds on the motor wires and the females on the esc out wires. Again, most in my area do the same so we can loan a motor if a racer needs one.

You can shorten the wires on both sides of the esc to suit, but as a general rule,do not shorten the wires coming out of the motor as on some motors they are part of the windings. If you need or want to replace the connectors on the motor side, de-solder instead of clipping.

Looks like Hyperion is the way to go. This is all great FE information for us new guys......

 

[RonShaw]

Gabe thanks for pinning. The hardware has been pretty well outlined here and that brings us to what held me back for a while. How do you rig the hardware. Tunnels can be done as Hotwater (Kent) did sealing the whole cowl. He has photo's in his gallery so take a look. Or conventional radio boxes. Feel free to post pics if you have them as that will give everyone how things work. What goes in the radio box is reciever,steering servo, battery and speed control. You don't need a switch or reciever battery as most ESC's have BEC circuits. That and you need to plug and unplug your Lipo's every time you run so easy access like a tape on lid is advised. ESC's and batteries much like your servo and reciever do not work well wet. I have seen batteries outside the sealed box and water like with other batteries may eventually corrode with exposure. Salt or brakish water an you NEED to waterproof very well. Lipos can get wet and dry out similar to Nimh or Nicads but again terminal corrosion is the enemy. I have shorted out a Nimh 1200ma reciever battery and smoked it so doing the same to a 5000ma lipo might be something you do not want to witness.

the Electronic Speed Control is usually placed to the rear on a tunnel to keep the wires short to the motor. Batteries cannot go to far away from the ESC for the same reason. Generally I have seen batteries to the midship or rear with the ESC on top. Depends on room availiable under your cowling. You can make the box big enough to shift the batteries within a few inches forward or to the rear and change your CG. Or I also use velcro on the bottom of the box and with longer steering adjustment I move the whole box. An inch or more is a big swing here. Each boat is different and builders are starting to address this with longer centers without built in risers for tanks or deck bracing.

My last discussion and again welcoming any other ideas is Lipo's. (safety) Buy lipo safe bags they are cheap protection. Only a few bucks. I am not trying to scare anyone as in the short time I have worked with them and watching general practices by racers at the FE nationals, I feel they are a safe stable product handled correctly. Then so is the gas can in your garage but you store it different than a hammer. Being in insurance and training education on house fires, plus knowing some of my customers that have had fires I don't think you can be too careful. Lipo's have had some bad press. Manufacturers are making improvements but you still need to store them correctly. First off when discharged you should bring them back to whats called storage capacity. All the Lipos I have bought and checked come at about 30% charge or 3.9v per individual cell vs 4.2v fully charged. (never go below 3v per cell) So I put them on the charger at the end of the day and bring em up to storage voltage. I am guessing this is the safest place for them voltage wise as being fully charged is not neccesarily bad for a few days.

Then my concern was physical storage. The garage for me was out as in the one in a million chance they self destructed and caught fire I have way too many chemicals in the garage. A cement box would be the best but not practical. An old refrigerator would be sealed and kept cool but not frozen is perfect. Don't have one of them anymore so that means in the house somewhere. Ammo cans seem to be popular also, but I like overkill. My first though was we use small strongboxes to keep documents in and fireproof so it seems batteries might be contained there too. So off to Wally world and a $30 home safe is what I use. Now with my insurance backround that just wasn't enough. I keep the batteries in Lipo safe bags in a strongbox and put the strongbox in an old metal filling cabinate that all papers have been emptied out. May be overkill but lets me sleep at night. Anyone with any other storage ideas please chime in. I do not want to scare anyone as these are very safe batteries used properly but we all have tendencies to cut corners. We must have some firefighters here who have training an opinions.

Hope this all helps anyone considering FE,

Mic

This is all good stuff Mic. Thanks for pinning James....

 

[Doug Smock]

Here are a few pics of my current limited boat.

For whatever reason this boat was a bit heavy in the front. Everything got pushed to the rear to get the CG back. The RX is beside the ESC and tucked under the deck.

Video before I started working props.Poor quality but you'll get the idea, this run was with a stock X442.



Doug

 

[Bill Britton]

Just looked on Offshore Electrics and I see that the 4082 2200kv motor is out of stock. For those looking at a P-Tunnel, you can also use the 4074 2200kv motor. It actually is probably the better choice. It is 8mm shorter in height and a few ounces lighter. It is also only $95.00 as opposed to the $108.00 for the 4082.

The 4074 2200kv motor is here (20 in stock);

http://www.offshoree...eo-4074&cat=148

/B

 

[Dick Loeb]

The 4074 makes a good choice for a P set up the lower roll center helps in turning an less weight helps being able to put weight lower in boat to get proper balance.The people that cut up on F/E racing probley have not tried it but its a total blast more bang for the buck every time it hits the water.( I too still run nitro but F/E is coming on strong last year only myself in DIST12 this year if it wasnt for P limited B mod would not have enough boats to run,next year P limited should stand on its own with 8-10 P limited at any given time) . I like both but I can see what is coming.Thanks to Bill and Mic they are just trying to help grow the hobby not kill it, I also try to help anyone I can up this way..Thanks again Dick Loeb

 

[Bill Britton]

Ok Can i ask a question here in relation to Brushless Electric motors

I dont run FE but i want too.

Why do most motor manufacturers not give a Watt Rating.

I can understand the whole Rpm per volt KV ect.

what i dont get is were is the load rating.

I know you can't pour 200 amps into an UL1 motor and expect

it to live. but how much is it designed for.

What i want to know is how do i choose a motor.

I want to understand what motor i need i dont want to be told

to go and buy an xyz brand 300000kv motor.

i see some brands that offer lets say a 2400kv motor and a 1800kv

which one is capable of making more power ?

We dont have Q or P spec in Australia we just

have 4s , 6s , 10s ect

i have no problems running a spec motor but i need to understand how they are rated

Greg

OK. Let me try and answer as much of this as I can;

Why do most motor manufacturers not give a Watt Rating.

They do. Sometimes it seems like it's buried but it is there.

OSE has a Neu motor chart with watt ratings here; http://www.offshoree...motor-chart.htm

Leopard has it's spec on each motors page on it's website. Here's the 4074; http://www.leopardho...tionID=01020201

I can understand the whole Rpm per volt KV ect. what i dont get is were is the load rating.

Typically you would take approx 3500 -4000 rpm off of the no load max rpm calculation below..

I know you can't pour 200 amps into an UL1 motor and expect it to live. but how much is it designed for.

The AQ2030 UL1 motor is a 60 amp motor.

What i want to know is how do i choose a motor. I want to understand what motor i need i dont want to be told to go and buy an xyz brand 300000kv motor.

Figuring out the correct motor involves a little math. To figure max rpms for a setup; take the voltage times kv rating to equal max rpm. so for the Neu 1515/1.y(2200kv) motor on 4S;

Volts * Kv = rpm

14.8 * 2200 = 32560.

14.8 being 4S voltage times 2200kv motor rating equals max rpms of 32,560. To get real world load ratings, take 3,500-4,000 rpms of and you get rpms of 29,000 loaded.

i see some brands that offer lets say a 2400kv motor and a 1800kv which one is capable of making more power ?

Again simple math, lets say you were trying to decide which motor to buy for a P setup;

14.8 * 2400 = 35,520

14.8 * 1800 = 26,640

We should also work out the amps cause we wanna make sure were not gonna cook the speed control. so we divide kv by votlage to get amps (kv / volts = amps)

2400 / 14.8 = 162 amps

1800 / 14.8 = 121 amps

This does not take into consideration any spikes, so we need give the esc a little room to breathe. Given the calculations above (and using the chart Mic posted) we see that;

2400kv motor;

35,520 rpm is a little on the high side, approx 30 - 32 thousand is good for heat racing. loaded we will get around 31,000 rpm. Cavitation/amp draw/heat might start to get too high. if we aren't careful.

162 is a little hot if we are using a 180-200 amp speed control for heat racing, I'ts ok, but a 200-240 amp esc here would be better. You can heat race this but we would want to watch the temps closely.

1800kv motor;

26,640 rpm is a little on the low side, approx 30 - 32 thousand is good for heat racing. loaded we will get around 23,000 rpm. This is ok if we want to swing a bigger prop, but we can do a little better.

121 amps is great, not gonna smoke a 180-200 amp esc here.

Given these two motors only, I would go for the 1800. Of course if we could considered a 2100-2200 kv motor. we would be right in the ball park for 4S (14.8 volts)

We dont have Q or P spec in Australia we just have 4s , 6s , 10s ect

P = 4S

Q = 6S

S = 8S

T = 10S

FE is a different animal and it does take a little getting used to. But some FE things are much easier than nitro.

I will see if I can write a program in the next day or so that will allow you to plug in volts, kv ,watts, amps, etc... and lay it out in a fashion that makes sense.

If I have gotten any of this wrong, someone please chime in and correct me. Mic can add some insight as well. Doug S. you are an FE Guru. Please post some of the calculations you know that will help or correct anything that I got wrong.

/B

 

[HTV Boats]

http://www.castlecreations.com/products/neumotors/nm1500.html

Here is a chart for NUE motors. Pay attention to the watt rating on the 1515 which physical size is a 40mm X 74mm can. The leopard 4074 is also a 2500w rated motor. Most feel the NUE is more efficient and will run with the 4084 Leopard which is rated at 3500w. The motor manufacturers all rate the watts and some may be consevative and do not reflect the efficiency or quality of the motor which may also increase run time and be able to pull more prop with less heat being created. The 1521 NUE is a 40mm X 84mm size and rated at 3500w by NUE. The Leopards are in the $100 range and the NUE's $190-$260 range.

The other issue is KV rating which for lack of a better analogy is like gearing. Jay and I did a back to back test with two Aquacraft spec motors, and 1800KV vs a 2030KV on the same boat with the same rated Hyperion batteries. On a Shaman with a m445 prop at 6.5lbs wet we used a GPS. Resetting the GPS mid run to allow for peak charge at the beginning of the run. The 1800 went 46.3 mph. Changing to the 2030 we saw an increase of 2.5 mph to 48.8 mph. The peak on the 1st 3 laps was barely 1 mph more. Can we deffinatively say the 2030 is better? NO! The 1800 came in at 110 degrees controller and battery and the 2030 heated things up to about 122 degrees. We could have loaded the 1800 with more prop but the jump after a M445 was a 447 or 545 which would overheat even the 1800KV motor. Dropping down in prop to keep the 2030 cooler would probably lost a couple mph. The 1800 may carry a heavier boat and acceleration or lap times were not measured in this limited test. Just trying to get an understanding of things for ourselves. We did log over 3 minutes running and 1.9 miles on the GPS which would easily finish a 6 lap one mile race. Their is a different tunning setup in an FE and it is heat vs prop load and how efficient your whole setup is. That will keep racing fun and the guys who do their homework in the winners circle. The "P" spec motors are about 1200-1400watts to the best of my knowledge. Keeps it simpler with a narrower range of props. When you go to straight "P" (4S) the watts can from 1000-4000 or more. Going to be many sweet spots with props and KV's combined. More watts = more heat and battery draw = shorter run times. What will ultimately be the optimum setup is going to be interesting. This type of tunning is different than nitro and when you do the work your boat will perfom most every day almost the same. Elevation and needle are replaced by homework. Plus you can spin out or roll over and if your still deck side up just pull the trigger and your back in the race.

Mic

Mic