"F" hydro

[Don Ferrette]

I know I said I wanted to end posting with just wanting a level of equality BUT.....

"Preston I am not getting into this topic on this thread it has gone the same way the noise issue went and that worked out fine. It is strickly up to the clubs to put exceptions to rules on their flyers. The rulebook is a tool and guide."

Yup, that's basically the lame duck answer I expected. The noise rule worked out fine?? You must be kidding!!! Over 3 years (& that's the RECENT debacle) of fighting is ok? As Preston was kind enough to point out the current nitro rules are a joke, not a guide. A tool? Yeah it's a tool alright, getting used the wrong way. It's not called a guidebook it's called a rulebook. If take my race car to the track & don't follow the RULEBOOK then I don't race, period!

You just don't get it do you? All I ever wanted was to see is EQUALITY & FAIRNESS. You tell me Bill exactly how it is FAIR that a gas boat can force it's way into a nitro class but a nitro guy cannot go "mix it up" at a gas race??? You have gas classes, nitro classes & then open classes to "mix 'em up". I guess that is just too simple as the "board" has to make **** near everything it touches a major ordeal.

The "job" of "the board" is to "attempt" (& boy do I use THAT word loosely) to do what the majority wants. Well go look at the current poll on fixing this "issue" & you will see that over 2/3rds want no less that a rulebook correct with over 50% wanting it seen on flyers as well. But I guess you don't see anything there either......... <_<

I have NOTHING against gas boaters, MANY are friends of mine. It is about being fair & equal. PERIOD!!!

So if I show up at the Gas Nats with my twin I can run since you say the rules are just guides right? :lol:

 

[offshoremodels]

You know what kills me, all the guys that post remarks about the past that they were not even around for.

NO WAY. They wanted their own classes a long time ago and they got them. Keep them that way.

-BUCK-

I was there back in the day were you

 

[bzubee]

Write a rule proposal and submit it to your director to present to the board. Don you complained last year about the gas boats being alowed to run in US -1, F classes and how that was going to ruin the event. Gas ran and guess what no one had a problem with the gas guys running. It was one of few INTERNATS that after the fact there were not a lot of complaints.

It is simple when you HOST an event YOU CAN CHOOSE to not allow GAS boats to run in any class you wish, or if you don't like red boats (or any other color) you can also not allow red boats just post it on the entry flyer and you can have it your way. Easy with no rule changes.

DO it run a race or submit a proposal to the board for th echange you want quit bit3hing about everything online and actually do something to help out. I know you helped at the 1999 Internats but so did a lot of members and districts.

RULES DO NOT HAVE TO BE CHANGED EVERYTIME SOMEONE DOESN"T LIKE THE RULES.

There you go Don you got my comment.

Bill Zuber

 

[Finne]

Why is it "gas guys" and "nitro guys" anyway?

This whole argument just seems realy rediculous.

 

[CC Racing Engines]

You just don't get it do you? All I ever wanted was to see is EQUALITY & FAIRNESS. You tell me Bill exactly how it is FAIR that a gas boat can force it's way into a nitro class but a nitro guy cannot go "mix it up" at a gas race??? You have gas classes, nitro classes & then open classes to "mix 'em up". I guess that is just too simple as the "board" has to make **** near everything it touches a major ordeal.

I have NOTHING against gas boaters, MANY are friends of mine. It is about being fair & equal. PERIOD!!!

 

So if I show up at the Gas Nats with my twin I can run since you say the rules are just guides right? :lol:

Don,

I was really trying not to get into this on this board, but felt I had to answer your question.I don't think any of the gas guys have ever said they were faster then the Nitro guys. It is common sense that you guy's are faster. So to answer why we would not want to allow you guys in the gas classes is because we would be at a big disadvantage. You guy's should not feel threatened that we want to race with you, as you are the big dogs. We would just like the privilidge to race against you guys and perhaps help with the boat count in F hydro. None of us think we are gonna just jump in F hydro and sweep up the class, but would like to have the oppurtunity to race against the best there is, in the baddest class there is. If we are not wanted then oh well open it is. I just think that it would make for better racing to keep all of those big engines in the same class. If F hydro is truly a nitro class and you guys don't want us in for whatever reason that is fine by me I have no problem with it.. I just thought that the reason for a lot of these races was to make money for the hosting club. Not allowing boats that fit into the current rules and that are truly at a disadvantage in your class does not seem to be a good way to do this.

When I asked the question of why we were not allowed to run in F hydro at the club meeting the other night , which is what started this whole mess, I simply wanted A straight answer. I have been to races all over the country were this was not a problem and asked why this was the way it was here. I got a lot of really bad answers and a lot of bad attitude even from our new president. There were no discussions explaining why, just that we were not wanted. I had to hear about how our president was not scared of any gas boats. I thought when you were the President of the club you were supposed to stay nuetral and answer with some reasoning well that was not the case. I just figured it was no big deal as I had planned on not renewing my membership anyway. Then a couple days later it is all over the internet and has turned into a Gas Vs Nitro war.

I have no problem with the nitro boats and have the utmost respect for a lot of you guys. Some of you have a knowledge of boating that I will never have. I wish this topic would not have gone in the direction it has and we could have discussed the possibility of making the class work for both types of engines. If this is truly a problem for the Nitro guys you have my vote on a rule change to stop this from happening again. This hobby is not big enough to have something so silly tearing it apart.

OK, I am off the soap box.

You guys have a nice day

Carlo

CC Racing Engines

Former S.G.R.A. Secretary

 

[Preston_Hall]

Why is it "gas guys" and "nitro guys" anyway?

It seems a few of us have figured it out.

But the stereotyping still goes on.

It's about the rule book and why the gas classes were ever started! It isn't about slow boats(and the fact that gas is slow isn't even true) or the people who drive them.

If people don't like gas then they don't run it. Same for nitro. If gas is being run out of certain clubs then I certainly sympathize with you because it is not right.

It seems that is has been made perfectly clear why there are gas classes and that cannot be blamed on the nitro runners.

ODMBA runs gas with F's all the time. We also combine E's & F's. Nobody has ever complained.

 

[jeff baham]

fellows, start a new class gas-nitro f class or g-n-f class only, on the fliers you send out. so, now you will have f-class for nitro,, open class for all ,, gas=rigger

examples 20-40-60-and f-mono only

20-40-60-and f-hydro only

open class

gasrigger

gas-nitro-f hydros (riggers only) any gas or nitro engine that meets the displacement rules.

 

[360modena]

I was not going to comment on this matter but it seems Carlo Catalanatto has been putting bait out there for me so here goes. First and foremost, I have no problem with gas boats running in "f" hydro. I made that clear at our meeting the other night. When I asked the question, Does anyone have a problem with letting gas boats run in "f" hydro at the Spring Race, I was promptly reminded by Chris Herzog that we could not do that because the race flyer had already been distributed. A race flyer that I had nothing to do with.

Carlo also keeps stating that I said I was not afraid to run against gas boats. This is true, I did make that statement, but only after I was asked the question,"what, are you nitro guys afraid of gas boats?"

It is my goal to settle this situation in an amicable manner. Our race flyer states that the open class was for all hydros, gas and nitro. I thought that would satisfy the guys who yearned to run against nitro boats but apparently I was wrong. It seems to me that if all a gas guy wanted to do is run against the top nitro boats in the field, what better place to do it than in the open class?

As for the Hydro Invitational in November, if the rules say gas can participate in "f" hydro, then that's how it will be. I will, as president , represent both gas and nitro fairly. This I am committed to. It would be naive of me to think that I will be able to satisfy everyone on this subject, but I will do my best. The antipathy that exists between a handful of nitro and gas boaters will always be there, but trying to work through it is my goal. I wish the stigmas, "nitro guys and gas guys" would fade into the sunset.

The SGRA spring race flyer was posted on Jim's R/C boat dock because I want to encourage as many gas boats to attend this race as possible. I would like to see this club grow in both concerns, nitro and gas. I sometimes wonder if that is the goal of everyone? I hope this clears the air on where I stand in regards to this subject. It's in writing Carlo, not what you heard from someone else. Let's go race!

Best Regards to all,

Virgil Ericksen

Club President, SGRA

 

[Preston_Hall]

Good reply Vergil. I am glad you commented on this because it does seem there were two sides to this fence. I do not see any problem with the race. As you and everybody here agrees, an open class solves all.

 

[360modena]

Thanks Preston. Most of the guys in the club, especially some of the newer ones don't realize who brought about gas boats running in the SGRA Hydro Invitational, it was my son and me. We talked to the officials of the club back then and they created a class for us. Not only did they create a class for us, they waived the minimum boat entry requirement in order to let just three gas cat boats race. And on top of all that they gave trophies for first , second, and third.

At that point in time, when we patitioned the SGRA for membership, they created a permanent board. I understand the reason they did it back then and had no problem with it. They simply wanted to protect their interests and the hard work they put into the club over many years. The SGRA race site is a top notch facility.They did not want some upstart newcomer trying to take over.

We have had some very competitive races in Slidell over the years and I hope to enjoy many more, but it takes the efforts of all concerned to make it happen. No one likes making concessions but sometimes in order to achieve goals it has to be done. As I stated earlier, I want to race and have fun, situations are what you make them.

Virgil Ericksen

Club President, SGRA

 

[CC Racing Engines]

Guy's

Here is the quote from Joe Warren:

Looks like after a conversation with the New Slidell Lousianna Club director. The Gas boaters will run in OPEN Classes if they want to mix it up with the Nitro boats @ the Spring Extravazanga Race March 19-20....... As for the Hydro Invite Race in November..... Either the same will be posted on the Race Flier or a NITRO Only Race....... SEEMS THE TABLES ARE TURNING.....

Mr Virgil Ericksen,

You can do as you always do and speak out of both sides of your mouth and preach to the masses about how you only have the good intentions of the boaters at heart. This is a terrible place to air the dirty laundry but all of the guys in this area know your true feelings and have more proof shown by the sentiment of Joe's statement above. You unprompted at the meeting said that you would rather the Hydro invitational be an all nitro race and the comments from Joe after speaking with you only solidify's it. You are one of the guys that sit in the background, edge on a fight then after all hell breaks loose want to jump in and say how wrong this is.

I never once mentioned your name in any of my posts and never once said I have a problem with Nitro boats or the guys that run them. This all started with a simple question at a club meeting. A simple straight forward answer would have done the trick. For example: We would like to keep the F Hydro class an all Nitro class because the rules are very unclear about this and it would be to the club's best interest if we left it the way it is until we can have a majority vote or more feedback from the racers. Instead it immediately turned into a pissing match that is no good for anyone and was dragged onto the Internet. :angry:

I know you quite well and you will surely reply with some lawyer type etiquette and let everyone know that the things I say are not true and that you like the gas boats just as much as the nitro and only want to see this worked out, while in the background you will be twisting the knife just like the conversation you had with Joe Warren. I am sure you will even get Joe to post for your true intentions. If there is anything I know you will not get anyone to say is that I am not a straight shooter right or wrong I will speak the truth. <_<

Well I am done with all of this and would like to apologize to everyone here for this getting as bad as it has and some of our Dirty laundry being spread to a public forum. I enjoy all of R/C boating and the people involved. It is not a Nitro Vs Gas thing to me, gas is just my prefered style. Some of my best friends race Nitro and I enjoy watching them. If it is a problem for the gas boats to race in the F class and will disrupt the way the class is intended then I will lobby for it to stay only for Nitro boats. I will enjoy watching the F Hydro class as a spectator, after all it is the baddest class in our hobby and that was the sole reason I wanted to participate.

You guys have a nice day

Carlo

CC Racing Engines

Former S.G.R.A. Secretary

 

[bzubee]

Don, it is simple write a proposal and say alcohol or nitro only will be used in these classes. Have your direcotr present it or pay the $5 fee as per the rulebook and have it introduced to the board for consideration. AS for your question on the gas classes at the Gas Nats there rules do state Pump gas only ( for right now) and in the future they "Gasoline and oil mix of your choice shall be used. No nitro and/or other power boosting additives are allowed in the LSG engine classes." Can yo ushow me similar rule for Nitro classes? NO! Make one! GETER DUN!

 

[Eric Canto]

How can such an intelligent group of guys miss what is so obvious here???!! It is absolutely SILLY to use a comparison of boat speeds to determine if given boat classes should run together. I have seen guys with a boat that exceptionally fast for it's class, say a .20 hydro that runs 80 MPH, go out and smoke other similar sized boats. Now, that being said, guess what happens if you take that same 80 MPH .20 boat and race it against a bunch of 70MPH .60 hydros, the smaller boat does not stand a chance! It can't possibly run in the water that all of those bigger, heavier, .60 boats churn up. The next time you are practicing at the boat pond, just try and run a faster, small boat against slower bigger boats.....the bigger, slower boat will win almost every time. Gas boats are generally bigger and heavier than nitro boats, THIS IS WHY IT MAKES NO SENSE FOR THEM TO RACE TOGETHER. Nobody is suggesting that we lump scale hydro and .40 mono together when they actually run about the same heat race speeds!!!! By the same logic, nitro and gas boats should run in seperate classes.

Eric Canto

 

[BigChuck]

Carlo, I can understand you saying that you want to race the BigDogs. What I an puzzeled about is, after you( one of your motors) when 100+ I was sure that we would see gas hydro become the top billing class for gas powered motors. At that point I started to look at all the possibilities of hydros that fit the class. I was sure that I, and some other hydro racer were going to have to get one of these as well as it is STILL fast speed racing class. I already have F class boat. But I would not dream of running it in gas hydro. It's not a gas hydro. I would have thought that you would have been one of a few that would have dangled the carrot in front of the ENTIRE F-hydro class and said " Welcome to MY sand box." If I came to a race to win I want to do in with like equipment. It would mean the real " bragging rights" to to beat you or any one else for that matter that is the BIg DOg of that class.

As one of the Premire engine builder for gas power motors. I view the the RAPID growth as a positive. The combine numbers from both Internats last year were STAGGERING. And while we have yet to figure out how to hold ONE NATS for EVERYONE LIKE NAMBA. your involvement dose not go unnoticed. Contunie to set the standard buy which the rest are measured.

"Innovate,If you'er not innovating you'er decaying."

 

[Brad Christy]

Guys,

Eric's point is my big problem with this whole debate. It's like trying to drop a Tai boxer in the ring with a regular prize fight boxer. It's all well and good as long as they entered the tournament knowing they would be matched up with fighters of different styles. It's when they show up expecting to compete with equal peers and they are told, "Oh, by the way, Shang Tsao is the only ShaoLin monk entered, so we're gonna let him fight you. Best of luck to ya!"

I know, I know, not the best comparison, but I think I make a point that is shared by several on this thread. The two classes are different. One is not better than the other. Not faster. Just different. If you want to mix it up, let them enter an "Open" class if they like. Otherwise, offer two seperate classes and file the entries accoudingly. Period. If there a not enough entrants for a class (either way)....... Sorry. Most flyers have a statement something to the effect of "Three boat minimum to make a class." Make it stick. If you waive one rule, others will fall.

Carlo,

I know Virgil through E-Mails and phone converstions only, but I think he and I are on the same page. I'll be honest, I don't particularly care for gas boats. During the gas classes is when I usually do my tuning, fueling, napping, etc...... I also don't care for monos or tunnels. This is not to say that I would make a ruling on behalf of my club (were I in a position to do so) against the gas classes, monos or tunnels. I am firmly of the belief that they have all the rights to race as I do. I'm fairly certain Virgil stands on a similar position. We all have a right to our own opinion. Just because we voice it doesn't mean we are going to force it upon anyone else.

Thanks. Brad.

Titan Racing Components

BlackJack Hydros

 

[Chris Herzog]

Brad and Eric,

I would agree with you totally except for one thing.... My Eagle "GAS" boat witch I'm quite fond of, weighs about 11.5 to 12 pounds. Heavy compared to a 84 Eagle. But just curious here, Does anyone know what a twin 90 boat like the ones Ernie L or Mark B race weighs? What about your twin 84 Eric, what's it weigh in at? Aren't they all f boats? I remember my twin 90 Avenger was a good 17 pounds. I also raced it in Twin, F, and Open every chance I had. One boat three classes, made since to me

Guys, I'm done with all the arguing and I said it once and I'm saying it again. I personally don't care if we run with you all or if we don't. I mistaken something that I read, thinking that we were welcomed in that class and wondered why our club was not up to speed with the rest of the country. Well I was wrong and the club was right and everything is just great. The SGRA can just keep things like they are; I'm fine with that.

Mark B, if you are reading this, I will write a proposal for you to take to the IMPBA and we will clear this all up once and for all.

Don, you said that you want the rules to say glow...Will this work for everyone else? :

Bill, can the proposal be electronic or does it have to be a signed hard copy?

Known to tear clubs up...so I've been told, B)

C Herzog

 

[rocketman]

been watching this for 10 pages and now it's a change the rules outlook. Well lets see nitro/alky,,,,,,, good so far. Glow plugs only,,,,,good again. 30cc limit,,,,,,,,,, good again. So far you have not counted out the zenoah engine but we are changing the rules to keep it seperate form the nitro engines. This is going to be a little more work to keep the bigger boats and motors out of f hydro.

RM

 

[Mark Bullard]

MyMy the keyboards are hot now. I will give you a little history lesson. When the gas boats starting coming into the scene there were no rules for them. Our Tech Director wrote the rules for the gas classes at that time. The note placed below the engine displacement was placed in the rule book for the people that wanted to run LSG classes so the whole rule book would not have to be rewrote. The board or the membership did not notice the loop hole in the displacement rule at that time. New boaters coming into this hobby have sure pointed this out. The IMPBA can only stand strong if all model boaters are under one roof. The nitro boaters need the gas boaters and the gas boaters need the nitro boaters for the numbers to be strong. I remember when some of the first gas boats that I saw, it was something to see, these guys did not have a clue how to set the boat up or what a radio box was. And they wondered what happen to their boats when the reciever got wet. Well if wasn't for the nitro boaters bring them in and helping them for the grow of the hobby where would they be now. We shorten there learning curver a lot. And I have seen gas boaters start running nitro boats and vice-versa. I was the one that started the Gas Internats so they could have there champions also. I was talking to Bill Zuber who was District 5 Director at that time at the 1999 Internats. I said to Bill that this gas thing was growing so fast that if we did not get a hold on it that we would not be able to complete the Internats because of the number of gas boat that where coming around. So my thoughts were to have a Gas Internats ran in the standard format. That means that all boats would run 1/16 mile straight trophy trials, 1/3 mile oval trophy trials, and multi-boat heat racing for the classes in LSG. So I went to talk to my good friend Norman Morton and his fellow gas boaters that were there at the Internats because this was the first time that gas classes were alowed to run at the Internats. I was not able to help with the 2000 gas nats but Bill Zuber grab the ball and rolled with it. The rest is history. We can fix this problem in the rule book very easy, it not a problem. And it is up to the clubs to run there race the way they want to so long that there is not a safety concern. But there is one thing for sure, there is not any gas boaters or nitro boaters, we are model boaters period and when we understand this we will grow.

Mark Bullard

District 5 Director

IMPBA 9123S/CD

 

[360modena]

Carlo,

There were 127 posts to this topic before I injected any statement regarding it. In your posts you kept referring to the new president of the SGRA and the statements that I was making. True, you never mentioned me by name but there is a plethera of people out there that know who you were talking about. With regards to the statement you said I made about making the Hydro Invitational an all nitro race, that is inaccurate. I directed a question to you specifically, and that was: How would you feel if we wanted to make the Hydro Invitational an all nitro event? Not once did I say anything about wanting to do as such. Ask Chris H. I think he will verify that. Further to your comment about airing dirty laundry on the available forums, I see nothing derrogatory or detramental with regards to the posts I have made on this subject. You may however want to review some of your own posts as I feel you have gone beyond the subject matter at hand.

Regards,

Virgil Ericksen

Club President, SGRA

 

[Eric Canto]

Chris, thanks for the reply. Your gas hydro is smaller and lighter than most, and I remember the one problem it had at the Slidell race, finishing heats with the bigger, heavier, slower boats, just the same as my twin which is smaller and lighter than most. I did not want to spend an hour typing so I limited the topics in my earlier post but it could go on and on.....I make the very long drive to the Slidell race for one reason, I like the people there, people like you, Jeff Lutz, Harold Broussard, and Virgil......I do not think of anyone there as a "gas guy" or "nitro guy". I also enjoy the Hydro Invitationals more than any other race due to the fact that it is like racing was years ago......a limited number of classes and lots of action! For the same reason, I look at the races that are "gas only" and think I would love to attend those races if I had gas boats.

By the same token, races that have limited classes that are mostly nitro hydros are very enjoyable to me. My personal opinion is to allow any class that is well supported by attendance but limit the number of classes at any one race. I sure never thought I would be showing up to races with seven or more boats, but it is either that or spend a whole bunch of time sitting under the tent watching other people run. Long term, I am sure we will see races becoming more and more specialized since that is what most racers seem to prefer.

On a different note, if I may say so.......I have watched many boat clubs go the way of the dinosaur due to personality conflicts. I have been an avid boat racer for twenty two years....I have NEVER had a race site to practice at, I have NEVER had fellow boaters in my town to interact with or borrow a part in an emergency, I have NEVER had the EXTREME LUXURY of disagreeing with fellow club members, I have NEVER had a pond I could go to with bouys and a retrive boat there for the using, I have NEVER had a beautiful concrete launch area and a shaded, elevated drivers' stand. I HAVE done things like resort to flying R/C planes just so I had someone to talk to while enjoying a hobby, I HAVE done things like make a long drive to a pond I have run at before only to find ski boats, or a new house, or people having a BBQ so I do not get to run at all. I most cartainly do not point any of this out because I need someone to feel sorry for me, but rather, so that maybe all of you guys will take note of how fortunate you are to have such AWESOME facilities and people locally. Use this as food for thought and put negative emotion aside to work toward a more fun hobby for all of us.

Eric Canto