Building Jones canoes

[Ray Sametz]

Another question, figured I'd ask this here instead of " How scale is scale". The pic of plans shows the transom almost flush with end of canoes. The real boat shows the transom mid wing. Question, what is scale and what would you do?????

Ray,

Send me your e-mail, I have some other pictures for you (maybe I already sent them ??)

It looks like the flat of the transom is about mid vert wing, its the "diving platforms" that extend further to the rear.

Are you building that hull as a 3-wing (original) or the later 2 wing ?

After looking at some pictures, I "think" that hull and paint scheme only ran as the 3-wing, it dosent appear to change until it becomes the Truck Gear sponsor.

#9031 - 3 wing as canard, mid wing, rear wing vs 2 wing like the Bud and T-Plus, Circus #90102.5.

Joe, MHR # 9031 3-wing (original). Newton Plan # 159-A U-50 (no photo), Roger did not have a paint scheme sheet. I've been sent other pics of tri-wing hulls ie Circus Circus, Coors Dry but the wings are angled downward off the tub, but the transom stops mid wing as in my photo. Rogers plans show the wings level as in my photos. Think I have photos from you also but PM sent. Thanks Joe B)

 

[Joe Wiebelhaus]

Next question, will this set of RCboat Co. wings be accurate(pic 2) for use in (pic 1) B) B)

Ray,

Those will work, Jones tall style.

 

[Mike McKnight]

Ray I have a shot of the 90 Circus and your drawing seems to be of that transom. I have a shot of it on the trailer side by side with the primary hull and the transom is noticeably different than your photo. Your photo is similar to the 92102.5 hull where it the rear wing has movable flaps. There is one big difference though. The main section of the rear wing on your boat is not as long as the 92102.5. If you look at the U-50 the wing is only slightly ahead of the leading edge of the verts. On the other hull it extends much farther forward of the verts and the leading edge tapers from the tub back to the inside of the canoes. The leading edge of the U-50 is almost straight accross. The inset transom and the flaps appear to be the same as the 92102.5.

 

[Ray Sametz]

More than likely Roger just copied a set of the Tri-wing Circus plans for me. He's a pic Joe Wiebelhaus sent me clearly showing the transom recessed. This is what I plan on doing. Don't think it will affect the handling since boat is 48" long.

 

[Don Ferrette]

Keep rollin' on it Ray, don't let 'er turn into another space shuttle like our buddy down in Florida. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

 

[FloridaScaleBoater]

Keep rollin' on it Ray, don't let 'er turn into another space shuttle like our buddy down in Florida. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

The rocket scientist?????????????

He's now back to MONO stuff, from the looks of his other thread

The shuttle will never launch

 

[Joe Wiebelhaus]

More than likely Roger just copied a set of the Tri-wing Circus plans for me. He's a pic Joe Wiebelhaus sent me clearly showing the transom recessed. This is what I plan on doing. Don't think it will affect the handling since boat is 48" long.

Ray,

What is the distance from the sponson transom (back of the sponson) to the transom of the hull ?

 

[Andy Greene]

Keep rollin' on it Ray, don't let 'er turn into another space shuttle like our buddy down in Florida. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

The rocket scientist?????????????

He's now back to MONO stuff, from the looks of his other thread

The shuttle will never launch

Man you guys are harsh !!!

Yep back to a Mono for a while, but the old girl will see the water one day, maybe -LOL

The bottom is pretty much done btw , but the wallet won't allow the next step for now.

Andy

 

[Ray Sametz]

More than likely Roger just copied a set of the Tri-wing Circus plans for me. He's a pic Joe Wiebelhaus sent me clearly showing the transom recessed. This is what I plan on doing. Don't think it will affect the handling since boat is 48" long.

Ray,

What is the distance from the sponson transom (back of the sponson) to the transom of the hull ?

Joe, If it stops where the dive platforms begins, it's 2-3/4 inches. B) B)

 

[Mike McKnight]

Hey Ray after looking both of those shots you posted it looks to me as if it has movable flaps like the 92102.5 hull. They look to be removed in the trailer shot from the transom or does it taper down to the trailing edge with no flaps? it's hard to tell.

 

[Joe Wiebelhaus]

More than likely Roger just copied a set of the Tri-wing Circus plans for me. He's a pic Joe Wiebelhaus sent me clearly showing the transom recessed. This is what I plan on doing. Don't think it will affect the handling since boat is 48" long.

Ray,

What is the distance from the sponson transom (back of the sponson) to the transom of the hull ?

Joe, If it stops where the dive platforms begins, it's 2-3/4 inches. B) B)

Ray,

From the back of the front (main) sponsons to the transom (where you will mount your rudder. ??

 

[Ray Sametz]

More than likely Roger just copied a set of the Tri-wing Circus plans for me. He's a pic Joe Wiebelhaus sent me clearly showing the transom recessed. This is what I plan on doing. Don't think it will affect the handling since boat is 48" long.

Ray,

What is the distance from the sponson transom (back of the sponson) to the transom of the hull ?

Joe, If it stops where the dive platforms begins, it's 2-3/4 inches. B) B)

Ray,

From the back of the front (main) sponsons to the transom (where you will mount your rudder. ??

Just like in the pic, only on the left side. B) B)

 

[Larry K]

More than likely Roger just copied a set of the Tri-wing Circus plans for me. He's a pic Joe Wiebelhaus sent me clearly showing the transom recessed. This is what I plan on doing. Don't think it will affect the handling since boat is 48" long.

Ray - I believe you are right to build as per your pic. Boats like this one really open a can of worms for "Scalers". To begin, I have 2 mhr - One says 32'6" & the other 32'. That really doesn't matter because Villwock & Co promptly cut off approx a foot and a half after running it a couple of times! I'm not sure exactly what changes were made to the transom - it may have looked like your drawing after they cut off the canoes but not for long. Later I believe part or all of the right flap was lost to rudder considerations. There are likely many pictures as the Circus w/ different looks out there. After they gave up on the hull, I believe Scott Pierce stepped in & tried to romance Arizona Iced Tea into a sponsorship (hence the colors). I think the hull was pretty much as you have it until Nate Brown reworked it (U-4 Truck Gear). I doubt if the boat was more than 30' after that. The problem is documentation of the changes is from little to none! So while the length of your boat will probably always be in question (probably shorter than you think), let your conscience be your guide - I doubt that anyone could prove you wrong.

You know what to do - Larry K

 

[Ray Sametz]

More than likely Roger just copied a set of the Tri-wing Circus plans for me. He's a pic Joe Wiebelhaus sent me clearly showing the transom recessed. This is what I plan on doing. Don't think it will affect the handling since boat is 48" long.

Ray - I believe you are right to build as per your pic. Boats like this one really open a can of worms for "Scalers". To begin, I have 2 mhr - One says 32'6" & the other 32'. That really doesn't matter because Villwock & Co promptly cut off approx a foot and a half after running it a couple of times! I'm not sure exactly what changes were made to the transom - it may have looked like your drawing after they cut off the canoes but not for long. Later I believe part or all of the right flap was lost to rudder considerations. There are likely many pictures as the Circus w/ different looks out there. After they gave up on the hull, I believe Scott Pierce stepped in & tried to romance Arizona Iced Tea into a sponsorship (hence the colors). I think the hull was pretty much as you have it until Nate Brown reworked it (U-4 Truck Gear). I doubt if the boat was more than 30' after that. The problem is documentation of the changes is from little to none! So while the length of your boat will probably always be in question (probably shorter than you think), let your conscience be your guide - I doubt that anyone could prove you wrong.

You know what to do - Larry K

Larry Thanks, The colors caught my eye, knew I saw that combo somewhere. Arizona Ice Tea. Thanks for more pieces to the puzzle. B) B)

 

[Ray Sametz]

Next question, I dry fit the mid and rear wing, the air trap at the lowest part of the mid wing is a 1/2 inch. At the rear wing it's 3/4 inch air trap. This is set per plans. My question is what should the strut depth be. I'm concerned that I might have to raise or lower the rear to get the AOA on the sponsons. The plans call for 3* AOA. Thanks B) B)

 

[SayMikey]

Next question, I dry fit the mid and rear wing, the air trap at the lowest part of the mid wing is a 1/2 inch. At the rear wing it's 3/4 inch air trap. This is set per plans. My question is what should the strut depth be. I'm concerned that I might have to raise or lower the rear to get the AOA on the sponsons. The plans call for 3* AOA. Thanks B) B)

Tools are lined up way to neat and need more saw dust...........

 

[Bert Dygert]

Ray,

I had to change the AOA on the outside sponson to get my two wing boats to corner. I added one and a half to two degree's to the outside and dropped the inside straight down , got rid of the dihedral and made it flat. That's what the crew chief/manager (Doug S.) suggested so that's the way I've been running for a few of years now. Works great when teamed with a three blade prop.

As for the strut depth. I start all my hulls out at one inch deep with an sixteenth of an inch angle and adjust from there. Is your rear wing flat sponson to sponson or is it cathedralled like the two wing? It appears flat so I would say you will be less than one inch. If you set the boat on the table and level the sponsons afterplane flat( parrallel to the table surface) and measure from the bottom of the boat to the table that should give you a pretty good starting point. The only thing that may play into the depth at that point is if the hull has rear running shoes. You may be able to drop the strut a bit.

Keep up the good work. Boats really coming along nicely.

Bert Dygert

 

[Douglas P Shepherd]

Ray,
I had to change the AOA on the outside sponson to get my two wing boats to corner. I added one and a half to two degree's to the outside and dropped the inside straight down , got rid of the dihedral and made it flat. That's what the crew chief/manager (Doug S.) suggested so that's the way I've been running for a few of years now. Works great when teamed with a three blade prop.

As for the strut depth. I start all my hulls out at one inch deep with an sixteenth of an inch angle and adjust from there. Is your rear wing flat sponson to sponson or is it cathedralled like the two wing? It appears flat so I would say you will be less than one inch. If you set the boat on the table and level the sponsons afterplane flat( parrallel to the table surface) and measure from the bottom of the boat to the table that should give you a pretty good starting point. The only thing that may play into the depth at that point is if the hull has rear running shoes. You may be able to drop the strut a bit.

Keep up the good work. Boats really coming along nicely.

Bert Dygert

When I start to design a scale boat. I used 1 inch for the water line on the primary riding pad to the waterline at the transom. Put a 1 inch block under the tramsom of the hull and check your angle of attack. A 13 pound hull needs around 4 Deg inside and 4.5 to 5.0 outside. It also depends on the amount of air going under or over the hull, along with many other factors.But, Check the angle by measuring up angle to the water line .017 per inch = .017 x 5.0 =.085 per 1 inch up the riding pad. This is basic design start. More lb = more angle or more air under the hull .Less lb = less angle or less air under thr hull. The combo's or enless ! Doug Shepherd

 

[Bigbird]

I think that my three years at Ball State University was not near enough to come close to understanding that computation...

lol

BB

 

[Ray Sametz]

Ray,
I had to change the AOA on the outside sponson to get my two wing boats to corner. I added one and a half to two degree's to the outside and dropped the inside straight down , got rid of the dihedral and made it flat. That's what the crew chief/manager (Doug S.) suggested so that's the way I've been running for a few of years now. Works great when teamed with a three blade prop.

As for the strut depth. I start all my hulls out at one inch deep with an sixteenth of an inch angle and adjust from there. Is your rear wing flat sponson to sponson or is it cathedralled like the two wing? It appears flat so I would say you will be less than one inch. If you set the boat on the table and level the sponsons afterplane flat( parrallel to the table surface) and measure from the bottom of the boat to the table that should give you a pretty good starting point. The only thing that may play into the depth at that point is if the hull has rear running shoes. You may be able to drop the strut a bit.

Keep up the good work. Boats really coming along nicely.

Bert Dygert

When I start to design a scale boat. I used 1 inch for the water line on the primary riding pad to the waterline at the transom. Put a 1 inch block under the tramsom of the hull and check your angle of attack. A 13 pound hull needs around 4 Deg inside and 4.5 to 5.0 outside. It also depends on the amount of air going under or over the hull, along with many other factors.But, Check the angle by measuring up angle to the water line .017 per inch = .017 x 5.0 =.085 per 1 inch up the riding pad. This is basic design start. More lb = more angle or more air under the hull .Less lb = less angle or less air under thr hull. The combo's or enless ! Doug Shepherd

Doug, I understand your principle, I'll use right angle trig, with the tangent function and a trig table. Thanks guys B) B)