Best set-up for best cornering speed

Intlwaters

Help Support Intlwaters:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.
There are some very interesting things going on with the newest SGX.

The thing I notices the most was the change to smaller OD solid CF booms and how thy attach to the sponsons.

Also the floating rear end on the boat.

Had a chance to test with this new rear set up last year and was very impressed with the results.

Would be great to hear from those that have run this newest style boat.
 
Guys,

What Charles says is true. The physics haven't changed, only the effect of them based on how we apply them. The boats are faster and lighter than they were 30 years ago, but the forces at work are still the same. I think anything that worked 30 years ago, in regards to turning dynamics, but doesn't work now, is due to reaching the limits of what a particular surface area will hold the arc we are wanting them to. We are ALL looking for that same balance point between the rudder and turn fin, it's just a matter of how we get there that varies. I firmly believe that there is a "perfect" size/shape/position/orientation/etc. I am also fairly certain we will likely never find it.

I don't really understand the nitty-gritty details, but I've got a fairly firm grasp of the basics, which is likely plenty for most of us.

The basic concept is that the boat follows the turn fin and the rudder controls the vector, which is obviously also influenced by prop walk. When the turn fin is doing it's job perfectly, the rudder essentially throws the boat into a controlled tailspin, pivoting on the turn fin. While the boat is in the turn, the rudder is actually keeping the boat from spinning out, with more force on the outside edge of the rudder blade than the inside. I have found that the best set-up has the majority of the turn fin AHEAD of the CG, with the CG at the intersection of the trailing edge and the waterline. The angle of the trailing edge leaves some of the fin that is below the waterline behind the CG. Our rudder throw is only about 5-7 degrees. I've actually had guys in the pits ask me if my rudder servo was working. If you need more than that, either your rudder and/or turn fin isn't wide and/or deep enough, or you've got some flex in one or more of several parts, which may be the fin, rudder, steering linkage, booms, whatever. One thing to look for is that "wall of water" coming off of either the fin or the rudder. It looks cool, but it's a dead give-away of lost speed in the turns. A boat that slips through the turn with little to no water tossed in the air is running VERY efficiently. The less water in the air, the better. I have also found that NOTHING flexible is good, except fuel line tubing
default_rolleyes.gif
. Anything that is flexible is going to behave differently at varying loads, as well as reaching toward a yield point.

I can only speak from the experience of the few builds I have done. I have not had the time to dedicate to building boats simply for the study of it. I build boats to race. Obviously, there are changes that we all make from one build to the next, improving on areas that need attention. When I started building my 21 boats, I started from a well benchmarked design, scaling it down appropriately, and went from there. There have been ZERO changes to the geometry of the hull and sponsons, although there have been some adjustments to AOA and rear sponsons depth, particularly after the first two boats were built, most likely resulting from errors during scaling. I also started with a well proven turn fin, resized for the application. It is your basic shape, .04" Ti, with a 1/8" aluminum backing plate above the waterline, vertically mounted, with about a 3/4" radius curl at the bottom. The initial shape and size worked plenty well enough for me, but when a few others started pushing boundaries, we found the turn fin was allowing the boat to drift. As per the advice from one such driver, I increased the width and depth of the turn fin. The additional horizontal surface area created a REALLY bad tendency to lift with hardly ANY left rudder at all. In fact, I found that if I let off the wheel too quickly at the end of a turn, the boat would lift off and cartwheel. I began dressing the leading edge of the fin back, resharpening it each time. I eventually arrived at a shape that would hold the turns at 75+, and would not be too eager to blow off. I did have to let off the throttle and wait for the boat to settle before making any left corrections, but I learned to live with it. I have since developed a better shape that seems to hold the turn at any speed I've been able to get it to, and has little to no tendency to blow off, even while making a concerted effort to do so. Going back to the second, oversized shape, I put a much tighter curl at the bottom, something like 3/8-1/2" radius, which GREATLY reduced the horizontal surface. The boat now handles like it's on rails and could go the wrong way around the course at a considerable speed with proper left rudder throw. This fin is fairly sensitive, as far as the horizontal surface, and must be at a nearly perfectly neutral attitude relative to the water line.

Hope this helps.

Thanks. Brad.

Titan Racing Components

BlackJack Hydros

Model Machine And Precision LLC
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Well I just got back from the lake and testing the new turn fin location. I am very happy with the results, no more blow offs in a hard panic turn!!! Was able to observe the outboard sponson only drop about 1/4" in the hard turn! In a normal turn both sponson seem to

"float" and track extremely well, with no bad habits
 
Well I just got back from the lake and testing the new turn fin location. I am very happy with the results, no more blow offs in a hard panic turn!!! Was able to observe the outboard sponson only drop about 1/4" in the hard turn! In a normal turn both sponson seem to

"float" and track extremely well, with no bad habits
Don,

So what did you change?

John
 
THe new set I built was move forward 1.25". So when I get some decent weather and time. We shall see how she goes. When you brought up the wedge rudder, it got me thinking I could also tune with that as well. Do a little tuck to it, giving downforce on the rear end. Helping with prop walk.
 
John,

I moved the fin back 3/8" so there is less area forward of the CG and added 3 deg. of tuck angle. This helped to hold the sponsons level without pulling down to hard in the "panic" turn.

Don
 
John,

I moved the fin back 3/8" so there is less area forward of the CG and added 3 deg. of tuck angle. This helped to hold the sponsons level without pulling down to hard in the "panic" turn.

Don
Cool Don. Good information. Your experimenting adds credibility to what we are talking about.

John
 
THe new set I built was move forward 1.25". So when I get some decent weather and time. We shall see how she goes. When you brought up the wedge rudder, it got me thinking I could also tune with that as well. Do a little tuck to it, giving downforce on the rear end. Helping with prop walk.
Mike,

Be careful about tucking the rudder forward. If too much blade area gets in front of the pivot point the front of the blade will cause the rudder to flutter or catch and make the boat turn erratically. 40 to 50 years ago we used to make our own rudders and would put the pivot shaft about 10 percent rear of leading edge of the rudder blade. This would help make it easier for the weak servos we had back then to turn the boats. If we went too far back on the blade with the pivot point we would see the erratic turning caused by what I call center loading the rudder. If I remember right anything more than a quarter inch blade area in front of the rudder pivot point was pushing the limits.

John
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Thanks John!

Brad, you are 100 percent correct there is a perfect turn fin for every boat! I have found it every time I make a new one! LOL.

If we ever do find the perfect fin we likely would not know it, because unlike a car that runs on a solid surface, we NEVER run on the

same surface twice. So we do the best that we can and keep making new ones!

Don
 
There are some very interesting things going on with the newest SGX.

The thing I notices the most was the change to smaller OD solid CF booms and how thy attach to the sponsons.

Also the floating rear end on the boat.

Had a chance to test with this new rear set up last year and was very impressed with the results.

Would be great to hear from those that have run this newest style boat.
Crashed mine so I Tested a couple of weeks ago with my dad. Ran a conservative set-up and got in a couple of runs. I had to rush of and leave to make it to my football game so I left the boat with my dad. He told me after I left one of the guys was going over my boat with a fine tooth comb look at the boat from top to bottom. He said he never seen a nitro boat so fast. I told my dad. I was just about to start making go fast but I ran out of time. Hahaha! The latest SGX is the truth. Still even found some other things that were still out of whack so it should be even better.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
I got a new gas rigger last year that Don Ferrette built for me as a one of a kind build that was too touchy for me to drive through the turns. He likes the touchy rudder while I don't, so I moved the turnfin rearward with the slotted holes that allow adjustment on the turnfin. I ended up 3/4 of an inch more rearward than original setup and the boat drove the corners the way I like to drive it. So, turnfin forward = touchy steering as the rear of the boat swings around easily. move the fin rearward = not so easy to swing the transom around. Most readers here already know that but for those that don't, this example might help, because we also need to adjust our fast turning boats to our own driving style.

David ......What is the floating rear end on Andy's new SGX? Explain.

John
 
Last edited by a moderator:
I got a new gas rigger last year that Don Ferrette built for me as a one of a kind build that was too touchy for me to drive through the turns. He likes the touchy rudder while I don't, so I moved the turnfin rearward with the slotted holes that allow adjustment on the turnfin. I ended up 3/4 of an inch more rearward than original setup and the boat drove the corners the way I like to drive it. So, turnfin forward = touchy steering as the rear of the boat swings around easily. move the fin rearward = not so easy to swing the transom around. Most readers here already know that but for those that don't, this example might help, because we also need to adjust our fast turning boats to our own driving style.

David ......What is the floating rear end on Andy's new SGX? Explain.

John
Hi John,

What was the relationship to the C/G and the trailing edge of the turnfin when you got it right?

Thanks, John
 
John,

Have you ever tried leaving the turn fin forward, but reducing rudder throw and increasing rudder surface area (width and/or depth)? What I have observed while at races is that the boats that seem erratic in the turns have WAY too much rudder throw.

My personal set-up is such that the wheel on my radio turned to full peg makes that perfect pin-to-pin turn. I can't see a reason to have anything more than that.

Thanks. Brad.

Titan Racing Components

BlackJack Hydros

Model Machine And Precision LLC
 
Not trying to put words in David's mouth, but I think that the floating transom is the fact that it has two small sponsons under the transom

that are very shallow to the strut, about 1/4" above. This is much like a 3 point, but aids in launching bigger props! Better yet maybe Andy will comment, after all it is his design!

Don
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Well the set up I tested last year was a different winglet for the back that Andy sent me.. Then I cut a set of rear shoes so thy where even with the bottom of the tub.

This set up lets the rear float on the prop as the winglets hold the boat steady. With the rear shoes even with the tub bottom thy do not set down in a corner or pop the rear up as thy hit waves.

I can not say what the newest set up involves.

From what I have seen other places I think Al Hobs has one of the new boats.

Maybe he will chime in.

I would hate to speak out of place on the newest setup.
 
David, can you please explain the rear shoes even with the bottom of the tub? I can not picture this in my old brain!LOL

Don
 
We were at oval trials one time where my oval rigger would bounce a bit after crossing the launch wake even when I killed lots of time on the other end of the pond waiting for the wake to settle. My boat did not have winglets and Andy Brown was there and made the statement something to the affect that......."if you had winglets it would stop that bounce" I listen to what Andy says. He is a smart guy. The next time I went to oval trials I had winglets and they worked. Andy said like feathers on an arrow they keep the boat stable. They work!

John
 
The SGX has a upward angle at the rear of the tub if you set it on the table flat. If you set the tub on the table flat the rear shoes would just touch the table.

I ran the rear shoes threw the band saw and cut 1/2 off of the side that mounts to the tub.

This made them even with the tub bottom.

DSCN2913.JPG
 
Back
Top