Balancing side to side

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Gary Merseal

Member
Joined
Oct 30, 2022
Messages
15
When balancing a prop and the prop does not have a heavy side but balances side to side, but does not randomly stop and always stops side to side, where do you remove material on the prop to get it to randomly stop. I can send a video if needed. I’ve had feedback that the prop is still out of balance and material should be removed from the trailing edge or hub. Looking for help. Thanks
 
Remove material below horizontal center line of the prop,from each blade.
Is there a video or diagram that shows where exactly you are talking about? And why from each blade? The blade on the far side in the video seems to be the heavy one. I’m still in the learning stage.
Thanks for the reply.
 
I don't know where post #9 is since I only see up to #6 on my side...
To me, anything below center of the shaft the prop is on, is where the weight is going to show up. Now if the blades are ending up predominately about level with each other, I take weight from the barrel/hub. This is AFTER I do a visual to see if I think the blade thickness is about equal on both blades. I don't go as far as to check with any type of gauge. Some might...
One thing I've noticed lately... On yours, Gary, and some others... Those balancers have a spring and a short length of fuel(?) line. The spring may be OK? but, I myself would replace the tubing with an "O" ring. Because the tubing is more likely to be off balance than an "O" ring is likely to be. Hard to get both ends of fuel line cut perfectly straight. But that's me. That's the kind of balancer I have. But, mine is about 20+ years old. and the cones fit snug on the shaft.
I like my magnetic balancer a little better. Looking for for a round thin piece of smooth glass about the size of a nickel to put between the shaft and the magnet. It came with plastic disk but would like to go with glass.

Ken
 
When balancing a prop and the prop does not have a heavy side but balances side to side, but does not randomly stop and always stops side to side, where do you remove material on the prop to get it to randomly stop. I can send a video if needed. I’ve had feedback that the prop is still out of balance and material should be removed from the trailing edge or hub. Looking for help. Thanks

I've had that problem with ABC props, but have never brought it up in conversation with Jim.

There are many rumors circulating out there that the hubs are drilled off center, and/or on a bias. Whether they are, or not, isn't relevant- it is what it is.

The solution we've found is to put a drive dog on your balance shaft, make sure it balances out, then install prop on shaft and retain it on the backside with a small o-ring.

Mike's post #9 is excellent, however not the end all. With the drive dog/o-ring concept you're holding a point of origin. Even using Mike's method chances are still fair you'll have to go after some hub material. I learned that from Steve Wood some time ago. I trust what he says implicitly.

Let me see if I can snap you a photo of a wheel we did. Trust me, you'll feel the difference with the boat warming up on the stand.
It does take some time and thought...get in a hurry and you'll whittle your prop down to nothing, and invite the potential of pitching a blade.

Best wishes -

Tim

IMG_20221209_110911674_HDR.jpg
IMG_20221209_110942019.jpg
 
I don't know where post #9 is since I only see up to #6 on my side...
To me, anything below center of the shaft the prop is on, is where the weight is going to show up. Now if the blades are ending up predominately about level with each other, I take weight from the barrel/hub. This is AFTER I do a visual to see if I think the blade thickness is about equal on both blades. I don't go as far as to check with any type of gauge. Some might...
One thing I've noticed lately... On yours, Gary, and some others... Those balancers have a spring and a short length of fuel(?) line. The spring may be OK? but, I myself would replace the tubing with an "O" ring. Because the tubing is more likely to be off balance than an "O" ring is likely to be. Hard to get both ends of fuel line cut perfectly straight. But that's me. That's the kind of balancer I have. But, mine is about 20+ years old. and the cones fit snug on the shaft.
I like my magnetic balancer a little better. Looking for for a round thin piece of smooth glass about the size of a nickel to put between the shaft and the magnet. It came with plastic disk but would like to go with glass.

Ken
Ken you have to clip on the link of another thread that I posted. Then scroll to post 9 on that thread.
Mike
 
I have to say something here...
ABC props are far better castings than some other brands!!! I, for one, am VERY glad ABC props are being made!!
No, I don't have any connection to ABC. Nor have I even talked with Jim or whomever...
For several reasons, I would be willing to bet ABC sells more props 2 to 1 over some other brands.
Thanks, Jim! Or, whomever... Thanks!!

Ken
 
I've had that problem with ABC props, but have never brought it up in conversation with Jim.

There are many rumors circulating out there that the hubs are drilled off center, and/or on a bias. Whether they are, or not, isn't relevant- it is what it is.

The solution we've found is to put a drive dog on your balance shaft, make sure it balances out, then install prop on shaft and retain it on the backside with a small o-ring.

Mike's post #9 is excellent, however not the end all. With the drive dog/o-ring concept you're holding a point of origin. Even using Mike's method chances are still fair you'll have to go after some hub material. I learned that from Steve Wood some time ago. I trust what he says implicitly.

Let me see if I can snap you a photo of a wheel we did. Trust me, you'll feel the difference with the boat warming up on the stand.
It does take some time and thought...get in a hurry and you'll whittle your prop down to nothing, and invite the potential of pitching a blade.

Best wishes -

Tim

View attachment 311929
View attachment 311930
You never will find a Beardslee’s Prop Service prop with the hub cut up to balance! I had multiple mandrels of a few .0001’s oversized to hand fit each prop. As finishing reams start to dull they usually cut slightly oversized. I never use tapered collars that locate off the ends of the hub due to those surfaces are usually not square to the bore. When I start to work on a prop I use a well worn 220 grit belt on my 1”x 42” sander, I put a small flat (.015” approx) all the way around each blade so as I work the back side of each blade I can see how thin it’s getting. I don’t use a backer plate on the sander so the belt flexes with the contour of the blade. I then put the prop on the balancer and mark the blade face of the heavy part, that would be everything below the centerline of the prop. If one blade is heavy I remove material from the whole back of that blade. If the prop hangs level I remove material from the back side of blade the front/leading edge that’s heavy and then remove material from the back side of the rear/trailing edge of the other blade. I do a little at a time on each blade and by using this method I’ve never cut a hub. If I have to remove a lot of material on larger props I use a 60 or 80 grit belt that I knock down the grit with a piece of steel first and then switch to finer grit 220 belts to finish the balance. I polish using a buffer to do the face and back of the blades. At the pond I’ve used a Dremel with various attachments to remove material. As accurate as investment casting is it is still very difficult to hold the bore centered, it’s usually cast undersized and then finish reamed after casting. The shape of propellers don’t lend themselves to a robust fixturing setup and just a few .001 off center can really effect balance especially if it’s out of line with the blades. If it’s in line with the blade it will hang one blade down as apposed to level or as some call hub heavy.
 
You never will find a Beardslee’s Prop Service prop with the hub cut up to balance! I had multiple mandrels of a few .0001’s oversized to hand fit each prop. As finishing reams start to dull they usually cut slightly oversized. I never use tapered collars that locate off the ends of the hub due to those surfaces are usually not square to the bore. When I start to work on a prop I use a well worn 220 grit belt on my 1”x 42” sander, I put a small flat (.015” approx) all the way around each blade so as I work the back side of each blade I can see how thin it’s getting. I don’t use a backer plate on the sander so the belt flexes with the contour of the blade. I then put the prop on the balancer and mark the blade face of the heavy part, that would be everything below the centerline of the prop. If one blade is heavy I remove material from the whole back of that blade. If the prop hangs level I remove material from the back side of blade the front/leading edge that’s heavy and then remove material from the back side of the rear/trailing edge of the other blade. I do a little at a time on each blade and by using this method I’ve never cut a hub. If I have to remove a lot of material on larger props I use a 60 or 80 grit belt that I knock down the grit with a piece of steel first and then switch to finer grit 220 belts to finish the balance. I polish using a buffer to do the face and back of the blades. At the pond I’ve used a Dremel with various attachments to remove material. As accurate as investment casting is it is still very difficult to hold the bore centered, it’s usually cast undersized and then finish reamed after casting. The shape of propellers don’t lend themselves to a robust fixturing setup and just a few .001 off center can really effect balance especially if it’s out of line with the blades. If it’s in line with the blade it will hang one blade down as apposed to level or as some call hub heavy.

Seems legit to me, however, what we described works for us. Don't interpret that to mean I'm in favor of cutting the hub- I'm not.

To work the blades, put the prop on the balancer several times with shaft/centerline issues is akin to a dog chasing its tail. That's why we decided on indexing with a drive dog and backside capture o-ring. Surely, there are variables that come into play. Perfect solution?...no!...does it work...yes!

In summation, we can only do the best we can with what we have to work with. Price point plays a role. Holding tighter manufacturing tolerances raises cost. And how far is the enthusiast willing to go for an end result?...A Microphone dynamic balancer?...so then, what element(s) do we chase down the efficiency path next?....

John, I bought a couple of your props from Tom Brubaker back in the 80's and had no issues with them whatsoever. I don't think it's your props or craftsmanship that's in question here.

You know full well the 'rumors' I alluded to above. I'm just not willing to step on anyone's toes on the matter. I could drop name's of people who are pointing fingers, though, but won't.

I just choose to do the best I can with what's available.
 
I have to say something here...
ABC props are far better castings than some other brands!!! I, for one, am VERY glad ABC props are being made!!
No, I don't have any connection to ABC. Nor have I even talked with Jim or whomever...
For several reasons, I would be willing to bet ABC sells more props 2 to 1 over some other brands.
Thanks, Jim! Or, whomever... Thanks!!

Ken

Yes, we can be thankful for what Jim offers. His sizing system is great and as easy to pick as gear ratios in a car rear end.

And there's the price point to consider...ABC's are a great product for the price. I think that's called value.
 
I've had that problem with ABC props, but have never brought it up in conversation with Jim.

There are many rumors circulating out there that the hubs are drilled off center, and/or on a bias. Whether they are, or not, isn't relevant- it is what it is.

The solution we've found is to put a drive dog on your balance shaft, make sure it balances out, then install prop on shaft and retain it on the backside with a small o-ring.

Mike's post #9 is excellent, however not the end all. With the drive dog/o-ring concept you're holding a point of origin. Even using Mike's method chances are still fair you'll have to go after some hub material. I learned that from Steve Wood some time ago. I trust what he says implicitly.

Let me see if I can snap you a photo of a wheel we did. Trust me, you'll feel the difference with the boat warming up on the stand.
It does take some time and thought...get in a hurry and you'll whittle your prop down to nothing, and invite the potential of pitching a blade.

Best wishes -

Tim

View attachment 311929
View attachment 311930
Wow, you guys are great. I’ve learned a lot in the past 2 days. Really appreciate everyone sharing their knowledge. You can’t find information like this everywhere. I’ll let you know how the balance comes out on this. Thank You.
 
Seems legit to me, however, what we described works for us. Don't interpret that to mean I'm in favor of cutting the hub- I'm not.

To work the blades, put the prop on the balancer several times with shaft/centerline issues is akin to a dog chasing its tail. That's why we decided on indexing with a drive dog and backside capture o-ring. Surely, there are variables that come into play. Perfect solution?...no!...does it work...yes!

In summation, we can only do the best we can with what we have to work with. Price point plays a role. Holding tighter manufacturing tolerances raises cost. And how far is the enthusiast willing to go for an end result?...A Microphone dynamic balancer?...so then, what element(s) do we chase down the efficiency path next?....

John, I bought a couple of your props from Tom Brubaker back in the 80's and had no issues with them whatsoever. I don't think it's your props or craftsmanship that's in question here.

You know full well the 'rumors' I alluded to above. I'm just not willing to step on anyone's toes on the matter. I could drop name's of people who are pointing fingers, though, but won't.

I just choose to do the best I can with what's available.
I still tease people about being so particular about balancing the prop and then put on a bushing supported shaft. Anything a modeler does to balance as close as their equipment or ability does is going to enhance their boat’s performance. Any sharpening and cleaning up surfaces will also pay big dividends in performance. Being left handed and working on left hand prop is also a big help. I’ll never forget the first right had prop I did, it took me forever to finish! I thought I’d had a stroke! Do full sized props that were all left hand and then so many left hand model boat props created lots of muscle memory.
I also use a caliper to check the hub wall to bore to see if it’s off center which can also give you a heads up on what you may be dealing with also. Most mfgrs do prop sizes in batches so when you purchase in quantities the odds are many will have the same balancing requirements. My benchmark time study was with Octura Models X460, I could do 6 per hour, from ruff to finish, ready for the girls to bag and ship. I take much more time with it now days, I have set them on the bench and see them waiting to be worked on (sometimes for weeks) before I finally get at it! I affectionately refer to my sander and buffer as tools of ignorance. Oh, the buffer, I use a 10”dia. by 3/8” wide sisel wheel on a 1 hp motor spinner 3,450 rpm’s. I wouldn’t recommend this for a beginner.
 
Wow, you guys are great. I’ve learned a lot in the past 2 days. Really appreciate everyone sharing their knowledge. You can’t find information like this everywhere. I’ll let you know how the balance comes out on this. Thank You.

John's the guy you want to pay attention to... he's been doing props a looong time.
 
I still tease people about being so particular about balancing the prop and then put on a bushing supported shaft. Anything a modeler does to balance as close as their equipment or ability does is going to enhance their boat’s performance. Any sharpening and cleaning up surfaces will also pay big dividends in performance. Being left handed and working on left hand prop is also a big help. I’ll never forget the first right had prop I did, it took me forever to finish! I thought I’d had a stroke! Do full sized props that were all left hand and then so many left hand model boat props created lots of muscle memory.
I also use a caliper to check the hub wall to bore to see if it’s off center which can also give you a heads up on what you may be dealing with also. Most mfgrs do prop sizes in batches so when you purchase in quantities the odds are many will have the same balancing requirements. My benchmark time study was with Octura Models X460, I could do 6 per hour, from ruff to finish, ready for the girls to bag and ship. I take much more time with it now days, I have set them on the bench and see them waiting to be worked on (sometimes for weeks) before I finally get at it! I affectionately refer to my sander and buffer as tools of ignorance. Oh, the buffer, I use a 10”dia. by 3/8” wide sisel wheel on a 1 hp motor spinner 3,450 rpm’s. I wouldn’t recommend this for a beginner.

You've been at it a long time, old friend.

I didn't know you were still doing props?...

I'll message you in a while...I've some questions regarding supplies, John.

Merry Christmas!

tim
 
I do just a few for myself and “Old Dog” racing team. It really is pure torture to do them. I’m still using the remainder of supplies from years ago. I think the only thing I’ve purchased is 220 grit sanding belts and then Danny King gave me a bunch at Speedweek so I’m in good shape.

Merry Christmas to you as well.
 

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