Wood versus fiberglass

Intlwaters

Help Support Intlwaters:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.

piper_chuck

Well-Known Member
Joined
May 25, 2005
Messages
2,436
I'm trying to narrow down my decision on which 1/8 scale to build. Based on my criteria, pickle fork and something without a wing, I was told to consider something from plan #108, perhaps the 1972 U-7 Notre Dame. However, in a conversation last night, I was cautioned that wood hulls don't stand up to racing as well as glass hulls. I like the idea of building from wood because it'll be significantly less $ than glass. However, I want to be able to race it and don't want something that's going to start falling apart after a couple seasons, or buoy mishaps. Looking for feedback from people who have built and/or raced wood hulls. How well do they stand up to the rigors of racing?
 
I'm trying to narrow down my decision on which 1/8 scale to build. Based on my criteria, pickle fork and something without a wing, I was told to consider something from plan #108, perhaps the 1972 U-7 Notre Dame. However, in a conversation last night, I was cautioned that wood hulls don't stand up to racing as well as glass hulls. I like the idea of building from wood because it'll be significantly less $ than glass. However, I want to be able to race it and don't want something that's going to start falling apart after a couple seasons, or buoy mishaps. Looking for feedback from people who have built and/or raced wood hulls. How well do they stand up to the rigors of racing?
Wood Scale hulls will last for ever if built right. Karelson round nose Notre Dame built in 1988, won US1 in 2002. After a repaint, will still be racing.

Steve Ball
 
Well It is really a choice of what you want and how quick.

The wood boats will hold up very well and being wood they can be fixed when wrecked. Wood hulls can be more easily modified by tearing off the bottom sheeting to the frames and trying something different. But wood does have to be done right to last. Building the hull straight and with good angles can be a problem. Oil and water can damage the hull, a water soaked and oily boat is hard to put back to new condition.

Glass hulls dont have to be built saving time, consider what your time is worth to build and the glass boat is not a bad deal.

The glass hull should be a hull that is proven to race and the setup has been done for you. The glass hull should not need mods to make it run correctly.

Small dings and cuts can be easy to fix with the glass hulls with the correct resin or epoxy, and the glass will not soak up oil and water if damaged. The glass hull can be more difficult to fix a bad crash, you have to prep and use the correct materials so you dont add too much weight.

If you total out your glass hull you shoud be able to get a replacement in a short time.

The 108 hull has many that fit your spec, the 82U55 hull is another choice some of the U4 hull had no rear wings too.

My 82 U55 Oberto boat has been raced by many with success.

There are many more pros and cons who has some more feedback?

PHIL THOMAS
 
I'm trying to narrow down my decision on which 1/8 scale to build. Based on my criteria, pickle fork and something without a wing, I was told to consider something from plan #108, perhaps the 1972 U-7 Notre Dame. However, in a conversation last night, I was cautioned that wood hulls don't stand up to racing as well as glass hulls. I like the idea of building from wood because it'll be significantly less $ than glass. However, I want to be able to race it and don't want something that's going to start falling apart after a couple seasons, or buoy mishaps. Looking for feedback from people who have built and/or raced wood hulls. How well do they stand up to the rigors of racing?
Wood Scale hulls will last for ever if built right. Karelson round nose Notre Dame built in 1988, won US1 in 2002. After a repaint, will still be racing.

Steve Ball
Your right I have been runnig the 79 ATLAS that was built with wood in 85 from Newton plan. It still has original paint on it.

I am working on making a epoxy glass version from it and a 108 hull too.
 
If built well wood is just as good as anything else.

We have a guy in our club that ran the Dumas Circus for over ten seasons of racing and only recently retired the boat because of all the war wounds.

It could easily be repaired , painted and back in the mix with a little work.

Tim K
 
My circus you saw running in N.C. is 17 years old and still winning races. Doesn't look too bad for all the time it has seen. I just drop a bit of cyanacrolte in any old age wrinkles. Wood sounds better on the water!
 
I don't have the patience, or know how of how to build them!

But I'm sold on "wood over foam" boats

I have two, one built by Gus Johnson in the early 80's that was destined for the trash can, has been rebuilt, with easily made sponson mods.

It won its first outing at the Orlando summer race.

See pics at NAMBA district3 web page http://www.namba3.net/

The other was built by Bob Johnson in the mid to late 80's has been raced hard for 4 years as the Tri Cities Mark & Pak in district 3

Ended 2006 in second place for the year's hi points

See pics at

http://www.namba3.net/NationalsDay8ScalePics.html

Rick Bellinger
 
My circus you saw running in N.C. is 17 years old and still winning races. Doesn't look too bad for all the time it has seen. I just drop a bit of cyanacrolte in any old age wrinkles. Wood sounds better on the water!
Ah but Mr. Finch you are not telling the entire story. That Circus hull sat hanging on your wall for over 8 years & you used 1/2 bottle of CA to seal up all the seams where those"old age wrinkles" showed up. :lol: Even before that you raced it sorta sporadically and the guy you got it from raced it I believe once or twice. She does still haul butt though, but then again like a fellow racer said years back you could make a 2x4 go 100mph. :D

Let's not forget the hull you kicked everyone's butt with two years in a row at the '97 & '98 Internats was ....... fiberglass. ;)

The common theme here is a properly built wood boat. Yes it can be done without a doubt but so far all who have spoken up are experienced, seasoned veterans with extensive building experience. Over the years I've seen more poorly built wood scales than good ones and I would generally steer a first time scale builder away from wood unless they are well versed in building with wood or have someone who can look over their shoulder giving sound advice & guidance all along the way. Wood does have certain distinct advantages- first unless you are paying someone to build it wood is typically cheaper. Also wood tends to give you crisp clean edges on areas like ride pads whereas fiberglass won't be as sharp. And, depending on the way it's built, wood can sometimes be easier to repair in minor crashes. Now some of the down sides are that a wood hull must be built on a jig. That jig must be solidly constructed & perfectly straight & square to insure the hull itself comes out straight & true. Sealing the wood, even the best sealed wood hull can become oil and/or water logged. The forces acting upon these hulls create a constant twisting action that can sometimes open seams even on the best built wood boats. Unless you are able to catch it if it happens & seal it back up right away oil & water can work it's way into the woodgrain that is **** near irreversible, the wood acts like a wick & the oils or moisture can travel even under that epoxy sealed top surface. This can cause swelling & splitting of wood sheeting and/or joints sometimes in places you can't even get to without a major teardown. BTW- I've seen wood scales gain excessive weight from builders becoming obsessed with sealing the boat so it's a fine line between sealing it well & keeping the weight down, something crucial on a scale hull that is already underpowered for it's size due to engine restrictions. And lastly wood changes shape as it ages, it tends to shrink a little as it dries out which can also cause seams to open up or in some cases the hull to twist.

Now on to fiberglass, seems like a better choice right? Well that all depends.......

A fiberglass hull in most cases will get you on the water faster. Since the hull is already built, once you have all the mechanicals completed it's just a matter of prepping for paint however that in itself can be an exasperating chore on a poorly laid up hull if numerous corrections need to be made or if it's full of pinholes and air bubbles. I have seem some really bad examples of this but also some that were ready for primer after an evening or two of prep work. Fiberglass, once cured, tends to hold it's shape well & doesn't care how much oil or water it gets exposed to. Fiberglass also is more forgiving during the prep stages if one gets a little "heavy handed" when sanding primer as if you hit the 'glass all you need is more primer, wood typically will need to be resealed. Some of the down sides to a 'glass hull is they can be more difficult to repair in a bad crash depending on how it was built & where the crash damage is. The problem here is after a bad crash that requires alot of repair work two things can happen. First the hull can gain weight rather quickly. Often a solid fiberglass repair that will be strong enough to hold up requires numerous overlapped layers of cloth between the broken parts. This added cloth & resin means added weight whereas with wood often a small strip of wood under or over seam or section repair is all that is needed. As an example take 2 strips of wood & CA them together in an overlapping joint then hold each end & break it, the wood will break on either end of the glue joint. Second if the repair is not done carefully, slowly & methodically it is very possible to cause the hull to change shape when the resin cures and shrinks. This is more critical in a poly resin build up as opposed to epoxy but needs to be considered regardless.

So what's the bottom line .......

Personally unless the first time scale guy is well versed in wood construction I would typically try to steer them towards a 'glass hull built by a reputable scale builder. They will generally be on the water much faster with greater odds of the boat being successful from the get go. Even so for an experienced builder who may not have the time, sure the out of pocket expense is more ..... or is it? That all depends on how much you think you own time is worth. Do the math at say a rather modest $25 hour for your build time & it's easy to see what I mean. Now in all fairness if you wind up with a 'glass hull that needs a bunch of corrections to make it right that can change the time factor considerably ...... been there, done that ...... too many times. :rolleyes:
 
Last edited by a moderator:
The 108 hull has many that fit your spec, the 82U55 hull is another choice some of the U4 hull had no rear wings too. My 82 U55 Oberto boat has been raced by many with success.
Thanks Phil. I agree with all your comments on the glass hulls. My Sport 40 (your hull) is extremely stable, fast, and durable. The interest in wood is partly $ and partly because I actually like building. It's also because a larger choice of hulls are available. Unfortunately, I'm not at all fond of painting. However, another club member loves painting so he and I are talking about teaming up. I'll do the building and he'll do the painting. If we can agree on a common hull, with different paint, the building would be significantly easier.

The 82U55 is another hull that was on my list, although I was looking at a simpler finish. I think this may be one of the ones you were thinking of when you said a glass hull would not need mods. I've heard the hull, if built to full size specs, is prone to blowing over due to too much air under the hull. One of the reasons I like this hull is it looks like I could build the cowl with wood instead of having to find a glass one.
 
Personally unless the first time scale guy is well versed in wood construction...
For reference, I'm actually pretty well versed in wood construction. I've built dozens of planes and quite a few wood boats. Since several of the boats were tunnels, I'm familiar with making and using jigs to ensure everything is properly aligned. I've still got the first tunnel I built, in the early 80's. I keep thinking I should get it out and run it to see how it compares to todays tunnels.
 
While we are very good friends, I must say that you are not qualified to talk about the longevity of model boats. Because.......you never have one long enough to see what happens when it gets old. You are one of the best and most knowledgeable scale people in America, but hang on to one for more than a year. I know it's tough because everyone has their price and when someone waves the cash all you see is..........what new boat could I build with this money. Oh, just kidding about the not qualified statement. If anyone is qualified, it is you. Oh, by the way......

the Bardahl is epoxy glass, not fiberglass. I guess I will have to take the Circus to the next big race and see how she holds up with more abuse. Maybe things will start flying off at some point. Then I will know it's time to hang it up for good. The sad part about the scale class is that the gas sport hydro is so much more fun to run. A crash doesn't mean two weeks in the shop for repairs. There are no wings, and they are faster. And, I don't have to be on pins and needles worrying about a blow off tearing up the wing because there ain't one on the gas boat. I guess I will run both at the Chesapeake race next month. Double the fun.
 
While we are very good friends, I must say that you are not qualified to talk about the longevity of model boats. Because.......you never have one long enough to see what happens when it gets old. You are one of the best and most knowledgeable scale people in America, but hang on to one for more than a year. I know it's tough because everyone has their price and when someone waves the cash all you see is..........what new boat could I build with this money. Oh, just kidding about the not qualified statement. If anyone is qualified, it is you. Oh, by the way......the Bardahl is epoxy glass, not fiberglass. I guess I will have to take the Circus to the next big race and see how she holds up with more abuse. Maybe things will start flying off at some point. Then I will know it's time to hang it up for good. The sad part about the scale class is that the gas sport hydro is so much more fun to run. A crash doesn't mean two weeks in the shop for repairs. There are no wings, and they are faster. And, I don't have to be on pins and needles worrying about a blow off tearing up the wing because there ain't one on the gas boat. I guess I will run both at the Chesapeake race next month. Double the fun.
I cannot tell a lie, you're absolutely right John. I believe the scale that stayed in the stable the longest was the record holding Winston Eagle lobster & even that one eventually found a new home. You told me a while back that I'm not happy unless my shop is thick with dust from cutting, sanding & paint fumes...... and you're probably right. I think the last time I went any length without being knee deep in projects was a couple years back when I had that massive sinus infection coupled with acute bronchitis and that break was only by doctor's orders! :wacko: I guess I like that wow factor when I bring out a new scale, the problem with that is the wow factor usually results in someone opening their wallet or checkbook & throwing a big enough number out that the boat gets a new home. Oh well, I guess that's one way to support the scale class. Heck the T-4 that is in primer is already sold, got talked out of that one before it even got finished. :p Well I think the new S/J will stay in the stable for a while plus there is another hull due in later in the summer & now that our friend Peter has gotten the real turbines working well in the scale hulls my next issue may be finding someone at Richmond International Airport to sell me JET-A fuel. :D

BTW- the Bardahl is still fiberglass, epoxy is the resin it's built with. ;)

...and as for longevity I know that all of the scale boats I've built are still out there in circulation so does that count? B)
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Gosh, I didn't mean to start an argument between you guys! :eek: :lol:

Summing things up, I think this is what I've been told...

Wood is an ok choice with the following considerations:

  1. It takes skill to do them well. If the builder doesn't have the skill, the thing will probably end up weak, warped, heavy, and won't run well.
  2. Due to the stresses created by running, there is an exposure for fuel and water to seep into the wood, potentially leading to major structural issues.
  3. In some cases, they're easier to repair, in others, harder.
  4. Wood costs less $, but often more in time. Cost estimates are around $100 in materials and another $100-150 if a glass cowl is needed.
  5. There is a larger variety of choices for wood since many plans are available. However, some of the plans require modification before one can get a boat that runs well.
  6. Wood takes longer to build.
  7. Sounds better on the water. ;)
  8. If it ends up running well, there's a big pride factor in being able to say "I made it with my own two hands". If it doesn't run well, lots of time has been wasted...

Glass is a good choice with the following considerations:

  1. The cost in $ is higher, but will take less time to build. Cost estimates start around $400 go up from there.
  2. Unless the hull has issues that need correcting, will take less time to build. However, I've also heard that some of the hulls take considerable time to be made...
  3. Won't have issues related to fuel and water soak.
  4. Less choices available, but in general, the kinks will have been worked out, leading to a greater chance of a boat that runs well.
  5. If there is major damage to a glass hull, one can just replace it.
 
...The sad part about the scale class is that the gas sport hydro is so much more fun to run. A crash doesn't mean two weeks in the shop for repairs. There are no wings, and they are faster. And, I don't have to be on pins and needles worrying about a blow off tearing up the wing because there ain't one on the gas boat...
Good timing. Yesterday I was looking through the options wondering if I should reconsider my choice of building one without a wing. The above clinched it, I'll stick with the wingless ones for now.
 
Sonds like you got it figured out Piper. As for the argument... that's not an argument between Don and I. We don't argue, we get even. Seriously....The insults are always made in fun. I guess people that don't know us well think we are arguing, but it's all in fun. That's why I get in trouble sometimes on the internet. I can't give the LOOK or the inflection that says I'm teasing. The one with the best insult wins! You would have to hang around our tent at the races to get a feel for the fun side of it. We are all about the fun factor. Good luck with your wingless scale. Good choice. Glass or wood is no matter. Just be wingless.
 
Sonds like you got it figured out Piper. As for the argument... that's not an argument between Don and I. We don't argue, we get even. Seriously....The insults are always made in fun. I guess people that don't know us well think we are arguing, but it's all in fun. That's why I get in trouble sometimes on the internet. I can't give the LOOK or the inflection that says I'm teasing. The one with the best insult wins! You would have to hang around our tent at the races to get a feel for the fun side of it. We are all about the fun factor.
I wasn't worried, I've seen you two interact enough to understand...

Good luck with your wingless scale. Good choice. Glass or wood is no matter. Just be wingless.
Thanks. Now it's time to settle on a boat and do some ordering.
 
Back
Top