Who's using Lipo's

[photohoward1]

Fix the Roof.

I am going to take my smaller 5000mah pak and seal the ends with plasticoat. or liquid electrical tape. Seems to me if I seal them I should not have a problem. They don't need to breath like Nicds or Nimh.

Steve I was hoping way beyound 100 cylces. But then again I only get maybe 30 to 50 cycles on a good matched pack of Nimh.

I am not abusing the Lipos as much as I abused the Nimh. The capacity is so high I usually only take the packs down 1/2 way. I probbly have not even crackerd 5-7c yet. My 5000mah pack will be abused the most though, It is only a 2P2C. at 10c ea. pack sees 25 amps.

My 4C4P pack at 50 amps each cell only sees 12.5 amps. Much easier on the cell.

The Motor won't take 100 amps anyway.

Time will tell. It is also nice not having to charge the day before or the day of though. I charge and when I have free time i go run. No Peaking the cells.

HT

 

[sjslhill]

Sounds like they will last....

1. Don't over charge them, aka over 4.2V per cell

2. Don't over abuse them, never use the 100% rating C

3. Don't even run them to low, I would stop at 3.0V per cell under load, your doing that.

I just wanted to point out the facts here, I still think they are the way to go. It's only going to get better.

One thing though and it's just my preference, I don't want packs with 16 cells in them when I can run a pack with 4.

thanks

Steve

Fix the Roof.
  I am going to take my smaller 5000mah pak and seal the ends with plasticoat.  or liquid electrical tape.  Seems to me if I seal them I should not have a problem.  They don't need to breath like Nicds or Nimh.

Steve I was hoping way beyound 100 cylces.  But then again I only get maybe 30 to 50 cycles on a good matched pack of Nimh.

I am not abusing the Lipos as much as I abused the Nimh.  The capacity is so high  I usually only take the packs down 1/2 way.  I probbly have not even crackerd 5-7c yet.  My 5000mah pack will be abused the most though,  It is only a 2P2C.  at 10c ea. pack sees 25 amps.

My 4C4P pack at 50 amps each cell only sees 12.5 amps.  Much easier on the cell.

The Motor won't take 100 amps anyway.

Time will tell.  It is also nice not having to charge the day before or the day of though.  I charge and when I have free time i go run.  No Peaking the cells.

HT

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[jayt]

  It would seem to me that all this talk about the potential disastrous effects of getting LiPo packs wet (and then leaving them wet for days ) is merely skirting the most basic issues of -1. keeping water out of your LiPo battery packs  and even more basic - 2. keeping water out of your boat interior.

That's all well and good, but think about this - the hobby dies unless we can continually induct new members, newbies who have to learn the hard way. How many of you have seen a newbie boat that remains dry inside? Not many because it takes time and experience to learn how to do that. In the mean time, these guys want to go fast just like the more experienced racers - that will mean they buy LiPos. Newbies + LiPos = wet cells, period. How many newbies will we actually get once they find out the potential dangers of LiPos and the labor-intensive care required? A lot fewer than the few we get now...scary isn't it?
Some newbies can be counted on to not take care of LiPos. How many newbies even bother to take out their flex shafts and dry them off after a day of racing? We are set up for disaster if we bring in LiPos without managing their official introduction. Think about the increased cost of insurance after a few members burn down their pit table, not to mention their cars or houses? The aiplane guys do it now on occasion, and only 0.05% of them fly off water. Bottom line - experienced racers can manage LiPos, newbies cannot.

I'm not saying we shouldn't use LiPos - heck they are the future of the hobby - but before we make a blanket legalization of them in NAMBA or IMPBA we need to think out the ramifications of that action and how we as a hobby will manage the risks. Honestly now, how many of you gave any real thought to the needs and risks of newbies and LiPos? If you're honest with yourself you'll admit that you are only interested in how LiPos would make the hobby better for you..... B)

 

[sjslhill]

"but before we make a blanket legalization of them in NAMBA or IMPBA "

I don't recall seeing anyone suggest this idea. I have heard someone talk about some classes being offered as LiPoly and NimH in parallel. I see thing progressing like it is now, some people doing testing.

As for new racers, I don't see anyone worried about new people burning up and or getting wet these BL controllers that everyone is using.

Ever see anyone make a claim with IMPBA or NAMBA insurance? I get tired of seeing this over and over, oh the insurance.

 

[T.S.Davis]

If we're totally honest with the newbies we wont get any ever. Explain to them that their cells are junk after one summer and they'll run for the hills. Or how about that the guys they race in N1 may be spinning their comms between heats? Professionally tuned motors? Professional tuned props? Matched cells at double the cost of unmatched cells. Brushless controller fires if you get a setup off by enough. Controllers going up on the bench. Breaking in a brand new LSH motor in a glass of water on 4 cells. Newbie freindly? The list goes on.

Introducing LiPo will require caution and careful consideration. Nobody has even considered how to make them part of NAMBA yet. A complete replacement of the current cell chemistry is probably not the right approach but the hobby at large can't ignore new technology in it's pursuit of the new guy. Heck, you could make a long list of technologies that would scare the poo poo out of a new racer.

Oh, guess I did that. Sorry.

It's really not fair to chastise these guys because they are excited about a new tech that's not newbie freindly. Lot's of tech is exactly the same. Ask a newbie what happens when you combine a Hacker70, a 9XL, an M447, and 12 cells.

FIREFIREFIRE

Maybe a LiPo class or two. Maybe LiPo in offshore only for a while. Maybe I haven't a a clue how to do it. LiPo is coming. We have to embrace it. Call it selfish if you need to but I would call it self preservation.

 

[sjslhill]

Do NAMBA and IMPBA racers now use the new non-flamable Nitro Methane, gasoline and Methanol? If Nitro Methane can be managed, I think LiPoly cells and packs can and will.

thanks

Steve

If we're totally honest with the newbies we wont get any ever. Explain to them that their cells are junk after one summer and they'll run for the hills.  Or how about that the guys they race in N1 may be spinning their comms between heats?  Professionally tuned motors?  Professional tuned props?  Matched cells at double the cost of unmatched cells.  Brushless controller fires if you get a setup off by enough.  Controllers going up on the bench.  Breaking in a brand new LSH motor in a glass of water on 4 cells.  Newbie freindly?  The list goes on.
Introducing LiPo will require caution and careful consideration.  Nobody has even considered how to make them part of NAMBA yet.  A complete replacement of the current cell chemistry is probably not the right approach but the hobby at large can't ignore new technology in it's pursuit of the new guy.  Heck, you could make a long list of technologies that would scare the poo poo out of a new racer.

Oh, guess I did that.  Sorry. 

It's really not fair to chastise these guys because they are excited about a new tech that's not newbie freindly.   Lot's of tech is exactly the same.  Ask a newbie what happens when you combine a Hacker70, a 9XL, an M447, and 12 cells. 

FIREFIREFIRE

Maybe a LiPo class or two.  Maybe LiPo in offshore only for a while.  Maybe I haven't a a clue how to do it.  LiPo is coming.  We have to embrace it.  Call it selfish if you need to but I would call it self preservation.

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[J Solinger]

On and off I've been picking away at a hydro design built around lipo power. The idea was to go into production and get a jump on the technology. Thats why I bring the lipo question up every few months.

The other day I did a little research on RC products built for lipo use and the only things I found where a couple of aircraft and 18th scale cars and they realy wheren't built for lipo but trying lipo was suggested for different performance purposes. There realy aren't any "factory" designed lipo boats, cars or aircraft. You can buy the boat, car or aircraft, then buy the lipo and put them together but under that stand point whatever happens is your fault. I'm certain liability issues, more specificaly "newby" issues, play a major role in design of these products.

"If you're honest with yourself you'll admit that you are only interested in how LiPos would make the hobby better for you....."

You are absolutly right Jay. There is no doubt about it. I wanna rip that water and I want my fellow boaters to rip it with me. But I don't want to draw any unknowing people into a danger and expence like the current lipo issue. So production will need to sit for a while longer. I will likely give it a try for fun.

As for making lipo NAMBA legal, its legal for offshore isn't it? Thats probly enough for now, just to test fire the stuff in performance use.

 

[sjslhill]

When I ran NIMH at Batavia years ago, I recall the same things being said. NIMH cells will generate Hydrogen gas and explode. Stuff like these new cells will ruin the hobby, we can't allow these. Trinity was also threatning to take us to court.

Guess I'll just sit back and watch it all over. :lol:

thanks

Steve

 

[J Solinger]

Do NAMBA and IMPBA racers now use the new non-flamable Nitro Methane, gasoline and Methanol?  If Nitro Methane can be managed,  I think LiPoly cells and packs can and will.
thanks

Steve

If we're totally honest with the newbies we wont get any ever. Explain to them that their cells are junk after one summer and they'll run for the hills.  Or how about that the guys they race in N1 may be spinning their comms between heats?  Professionally tuned motors?  Professional tuned props?  Matched cells at double the cost of unmatched cells.  Brushless controller fires if you get a setup off by enough.  Controllers going up on the bench.  Breaking in a brand new LSH motor in a glass of water on 4 cells.  Newbie freindly?  The list goes on.
Introducing LiPo will require caution and careful consideration.  Nobody has even considered how to make them part of NAMBA yet.  A complete replacement of the current cell chemistry is probably not the right approach but the hobby at large can't ignore new technology in it's pursuit of the new guy.  Heck, you could make a long list of technologies that would scare the poo poo out of a new racer.

Oh, guess I did that.  Sorry. 

It's really not fair to chastise these guys because they are excited about a new tech that's not newbie freindly.   Lot's of tech is exactly the same.  Ask a newbie what happens when you combine a Hacker70, a 9XL, an M447, and 12 cells. 

FIREFIREFIRE

Maybe a LiPo class or two.  Maybe LiPo in offshore only for a while.  Maybe I haven't a a clue how to do it.  LiPo is coming.  We have to embrace it.  Call it selfish if you need to but I would call it self preservation.

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I agree, but with lipo it seems more like spontaneous cumbustion. Like in Dan's case, the stuff went up months after its last use. Liquid fuels are more predictable as to when they go poof.

 

[J Solinger]

When I ran NIMH at Batavia years ago, I recall the same things being said.  NIMH cells will generate Hydrogen gas and explode.  Stuff like these new cells will ruin the hobby, we can't allow these.  Trinity was also threatning to take us to court.
Guess I'll just sit back and watch it all over.  :lol:

thanks

Steve

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You definatly have a good point. I'm confident the new chemistries with get easier and safer to use before to long.

 

[sjslhill]

I like to see the details of the poof. LiPoly will not burn unless it's charged above 90%. Was it stored fully charged?

thanks

Steve

Do NAMBA and IMPBA racers now use the new non-flamable Nitro Methane, gasoline and Methanol?  If Nitro Methane can be managed,  I think LiPoly cells and packs can and will.
thanks

Steve

If we're totally honest with the newbies we wont get any ever. Explain to them that their cells are junk after one summer and they'll run for the hills.  Or how about that the guys they race in N1 may be spinning their comms between heats?  Professionally tuned motors?  Professional tuned props?  Matched cells at double the cost of unmatched cells.  Brushless controller fires if you get a setup off by enough.  Controllers going up on the bench.  Breaking in a brand new LSH motor in a glass of water on 4 cells.  Newbie freindly?  The list goes on.
Introducing LiPo will require caution and careful consideration.  Nobody has even considered how to make them part of NAMBA yet.  A complete replacement of the current cell chemistry is probably not the right approach but the hobby at large can't ignore new technology in it's pursuit of the new guy.  Heck, you could make a long list of technologies that would scare the poo poo out of a new racer.

Oh, guess I did that.  Sorry. 

It's really not fair to chastise these guys because they are excited about a new tech that's not newbie freindly.   Lot's of tech is exactly the same.  Ask a newbie what happens when you combine a Hacker70, a 9XL, an M447, and 12 cells. 

FIREFIREFIRE

Maybe a LiPo class or two.  Maybe LiPo in offshore only for a while.  Maybe I haven't a a clue how to do it.  LiPo is coming.  We have to embrace it.  Call it selfish if you need to but I would call it self preservation.

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94066[/snapback]

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I agree, but with lipo it seems more like spontaneous cumbustion. Like in Dan's case, the stuff went up months after its last use. Liquid fuels are more predictable as to when they go poof.

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[T.S.Davis]

As for making lipo NAMBA legal, its legal for offshore isn't it? Thats probly enough for now, just to test fire the stuff in performance use.

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No sir. Not at this time. By that I mean there are no classes that include parameters allowing LiPo. That's not to say that you CAN'T run them. Just that there are no official classes.

 

[J Solinger]

Steve, this is a quote that Dan Proulx wrote in another thread:

"Another thing - LiPos are extremely dangerous. I had a "puffed" pack sitting outside for the better part of a 6 month Minnesota winter.

I decided to pop the cell that was puffed with a very long stick. That pack burst into flames and essentially melted itself into a puddle of...stuff. All that energy still in that pack after all those months and in sub zero whether at times."

I amagine the puffing was itself caused by over charge/discharge or something like that.

I can see that proper education and use will avoid puffing and junking of lipo packs but it would be hard to keep some one unfamilier with these carracteristics from ignoring charge/discharge issues and puffing a pack. Or worse yet mishandling a puffed pack.

"No sir. Not at this time. By that I mean there are no classes that include parameters allowing LiPo. That's not to say that you CAN'T run them. Just that there are no official classes."

Alright. That makes sense.

 

[sjslhill]

I guess he stored it fully charged, not a good idea for safety and long life. Yes, your correct, some education is needed. Thousands of airplane guys are using them and the fires are very limited. With some simple common sense, fires can be eliminated.

LiPoly will not lose a charge even when stored for months.

thanks

Steve

 

[T.S.Davis]

This may sound nutty but why not store and charge them in a $20 cheapy fire safe from Walmart or something? You wouldn't need to seal the top. It would contain a fire.

I'm going to nose around and see if NFPA has any data on them. I have member access to their site.

 

[J Solinger]

This may sound nutty but why not store and charge them in a $20 cheapy fire safe from Walmart or something?  You wouldn't need to seal the top.  It would contain a fire.
I'm going to nose around and see if NFPA has any data on them.  I have member access to their site.

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Thats a good solution. Metal amo boxes get used but I'm a little concerned about the cells some how shorting against the metal walls.

 

[sjslhill]

Many are doing exactly this...they should be stored from 50% to 70% charged capacity for longest life.

tks,

Steve

This may sound nutty but why not store and charge them in a $20 cheapy fire safe from Walmart or something?  You wouldn't need to seal the top.  It would contain a fire.
I'm going to nose around and see if NFPA has any data on them.  I have member access to their site.

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[sjslhill]

You can learn many things on this site....

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=129

failures

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=209187

thanks

Steve

Many are doing exactly this...they should be stored from 50% to 70% charged capacity for longest life.
tks,

Steve

This may sound nutty but why not store and charge them in a $20 cheapy fire safe from Walmart or something?  You wouldn't need to seal the top.  It would contain a fire.
I'm going to nose around and see if NFPA has any data on them.  I have member access to their site.

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[Jeff Wohlt]

I guess my question is...why can cell phones and other new gadgets contain these cells if so touchy?

I have never heard of any explosions and charging is done by the basic nuts that do not know any better.

Why are they considered safe in those devices?

 

[Dan Proulx]

Jeff,

Cell phones and other consumer devices have built in circuitry to insure that their Lithium cells aren't over charged/discharged.

Also, most consumer devices are using Lithium Ion cells - not Lithium polymer.

Dan