West Systems Epoxy Help

[Gary Girvin]

Hi Hydro junkie, I had 3 failures using 105/206. Two were skin problems and one was transom breaking. When I called the West Systems tech, told me that the 105/206 was not designed for construction because it was not thick enough to stay where you put it, so he recommended the G-flex for construction. As far as Z-poxy, you need to use to regular resin and not the finishing resin for construction. The Z-poxy finishing resin and the West Systems 105/206 or 105/207 are to be used for surface sealing and with cloth application. Thank you, Gary

 

[Daniel's Racing]

Gary,
Excellent post.

The thin stuff I believe is all absorbed in the wood but then you have little left in and around the joint itself for the strength to be as good.

Any kind epoxy is better than a CA build for sure. Can't believe people even do that.

But use the thickened Gflex 650 and nothing is going to separate it later. Awesome stuff. Waterproof as all heck as all epoxy is I guess but it can actually be used in underwater repair. Not that we need that characteristic but seems it would carry over in some way to being a stronger bond than normal epoxy achieves. Noticeably better adhesion compared to normal epoxy too. The stuff is very sticky. Different odor to it also.

 

[Hydro Junkie]

Gary, not saying you're wrong, not in the least. Something just seems wrong when a rep from a manufacturer says their product won't do what it's advertised to do, that being to hold materials (primarily wood) together in a marine environment. People have been using West Systems epoxies to build boats of all sizes and styles for decades. Using the product line has been primarily with good results and now, a rep says not to use it? Seems like that rep is trying to push a new product to me.
Was just doing some looking around the internet and found something interesting:
Specifications for this item

Brand Name	West System
Color	Pale yellow
Compatible Material	Plastic , Metal , Glass , Fiberglass , Ceramic
Ean	0811343012038
Included Components	industrial-sealants
Is Assembly Required	false
Item Volume	946.00 milliliters
Item Weight	2.24 pounds

• EXCELLENT ADHESION to hard-to bond woods. This toughened, versatile liquid epoxy for permanent waterproof bonding of fiberglass, ceramics, metals, plastics, damp and difficult-to-bond woods. A bit more flexible than standard epoxies and polyester, but much stiffer than adhesive sealants. Makes structural bonds that can absorb the stress of expansion, contraction, shock, and vibration.

This all comes from Amazon's website. What I also found is that, for a 32 ounce package, it's $85.60 or $2.68 per ounce. I also found a 2 quart size for $126 or $1.57 per ounce
I can get a package with the B sized 105 resin and 206 hardener, with pumps for $168.83 or $1.10 per ounce. If you delete the pumps, it's probably less than a dollar an ounce.

Brand Name	West System
Color	Pale Yellow
Compatible Material	Wood , Fiberglass , Metal , Concrete
Ean	0657379079894
Included Components	Resin, Slow Hardener, Pumps
Item Volume	300 milliliters
Item Weight	12.80 pounds
Material	Epoxy Resin , Slow Epoxy Hardener , Dispensing Pumps
Number of Items	3
Part Number	105B-WESTSYSTEM_K2
Size	B
UNSPSC Code	31201600
UPC	657379079894

This has me asking the question "Is the rep actually trying to sell a new, better product or sell a more expensive one?" I'll leave that to you all to decide.

 

[Bradley Maglinger]

You need to use 105 Resin with either of those two hardeners (Both 207 & 205 are just the hardener component). I personally use 105 w/207 for everything.

I followed Bucks lead back in 2017 on using 105/207 for everything and I have not had any failures. This will be 5 years since I have built my ML Boatworks sport 20 and it has exceeded my expectations.

 

[Tom Foley]

Gary, not saying you're wrong, not in the least. Something just seems wrong when a rep from a manufacturer says their product won't do what it's advertised to do, that being to hold materials (primarily wood) together in a marine environment. People have been using West Systems epoxies to build boats of all sizes and styles for decades. Using the product line has been primarily with good results and now, a rep says not to use it? Seems like that rep is trying to push a new product to me.
Was just doing some looking around the internet and found something interesting:
Specifications for this item

Brand Name	West System
Color	Pale yellow
Compatible Material	Plastic , Metal , Glass , Fiberglass , Ceramic
Ean	0811343012038
Included Components	industrial-sealants
Is Assembly Required	false
Item Volume	946.00 milliliters
Item Weight	2.24 pounds

• EXCELLENT ADHESION to hard-to bond woods. This toughened, versatile liquid epoxy for permanent waterproof bonding of fiberglass, ceramics, metals, plastics, damp and difficult-to-bond woods. A bit more flexible than standard epoxies and polyester, but much stiffer than adhesive sealants. Makes structural bonds that can absorb the stress of expansion, contraction, shock, and vibration.

This all comes from Amazon's website. What I also found is that, for a 32 ounce package, it's $85.60 or $2.68 per ounce. I also found a 2 quart size for $126 or $1.57 per ounce
I can get a package with the B sized 105 resin and 206 hardener, with pumps for $168.83 or $1.10 per ounce. If you delete the pumps, it's probably less than a dollar an ounce.

Brand Name	West System
Color	Pale Yellow
Compatible Material	Wood , Fiberglass , Metal , Concrete
Ean	0657379079894
Included Components	Resin, Slow Hardener, Pumps
Item Volume	300 milliliters
Item Weight	12.80 pounds
Material	Epoxy Resin , Slow Epoxy Hardener , Dispensing Pumps
Number of Items	3
Part Number	105B-WESTSYSTEM_K2
Size	B
UNSPSC Code	31201600
UPC	657379079894

This has me asking the question "Is the rep actually trying to sell a new, better product or sell a more expensive one?" I'll leave that to you all to decide.

Most full size outboard racing runabouts and hydros are built using West Systems epoxies . The stuff is great . Every boatyard I have ever worked in all use it .....

 

[Daniel's Racing]

Your right 100% in the fact they surely should not have said 105 and hardener should not be used for building because the next question would be what did people use before 650 Gflex ? common sense would say they didn't have this then so of course it can and was and still can be used to build.
Is Gflex 650 that much better to rule out ever buiiding the wood frame structure with 105 and hardener it may very well be that much better for glass less wood frame construction.

I have fresh quart of both here now. May be a good time to do a T joint and break test on some wood soon and see how they bond.

Just using it I right away I noticed the improved adhesion and stickiness and it stays put so you end up with more natural filet with full contact everywhere with some thickness left when cured. It cures without the brittleness of normal epoxy without glass.

We can't just say......

There is just no way West Systems could be making a epoxy that is better for building wood glass less construction boats. No way.

Lithium batteries will never be better because NiCad and NiMh worked perfectly.

Fassst wasn't and isn't better because most could get a FM PCM radio to fit their needs.

Who needs stainless props when beryllium copper was just fine.

Synthetic oil well I am sure that is out of the question. Stuff just cost more. Conventional always worked fine.

People sure like to knock what they have never even tried.

Remember the I will never change from NiMh people. Well I would say 99% have finally seen the light.

Of course new/better is often going to cost a little more. Often it does more too so it turns out to actually be a bargain if you look at the whole picture.

Like say the epoxy not only stronger and better but you use a lot less and the 1:1 ratio makes it easier to do small batches so you use less.

Or synthetic oil. It usually offers better protection for longer.

Lithium batteries have changed the world. Many things battery powered could never have even existed with the advent of lithium batteries.

It is 2022 but hard to accept change when tried and true methods are often still available and WORKED !!!! Lol.

 

[Hydro Junkie]

Daniel, I'm not saying the new is or isn't better. I'm just calling out a company rep that said not to use an older product(105/206) because it won't work when many of us have used that product combination and had no issues with it. I'm also calling out the fact that the new product costs the consumer 50% more than the older product that was stated "not for that application", when that's exactly what it was made to do. And for the record, the 207 hardener is what was made for coating and glassing, the 206 was made for adhesive type applications.

 

[Daniel's Racing]

Yes sir I got that. It is great stuff though and believe it could be worth what ever extra it costs.

My point is yes we know if the rep said 105 and hardener isn't made for building glassless wood construction he is both right and wrong. Wrong because everybody used it to build and it worked. Right because 650 is available now and it is better suited to the task. Of couse we know the 105 built many a boat that held together wonderfully so if he said it was not good for that yea kinda a crazy statement. We were not the ones asking questions and hearing exactly what was said either.

Certainly, if you talked to the guy it would have been a tougher sell as you accused them of just making something that cost more so they can make more on it. Then reminded him we used 105 exclusively to build how is it not right. ....and so on. Call them and have your conversation maybe you will learn something or just reaffirm they are smoking something good to be telling people that kind of non sense.

Batteries is best example I know.

Do you have to use LiFe ? No !! Were NiCad and NiMh never the right battery. That is correct they were never the correct battery. It was what we had. The other didn't exist. But we now know LiFe is a better battery for us.

With the advent of a considerably better product one could NOW say that the normal 105 and hardener is not the proper product to build wood frame glassless boat structures with and he would actually be correct. Well if in fact the 650 even really is better but my experiences so far seems to say that it would be better on glass less wood frame construction. I have been gluing wood to wood and wood to fiberglass or carbon fiber with it and impressed with it for several reasons even though I know 105 and hardener certainly could have also been used on the exact same job. I like how I don't have to use thickeners as much with the 650 if at all and the epoxy doesn't all flow out but instead keeps a full bond intact 100% of the area even if something your not getting clamped together tight. Without glass hardened 105 can be brittle. This stuff is hard enough to sand nice but yet has some give to it in just the product without glass type of applications. I believe it has merit and considerably. Toughened was a good terminolgy they used to describe the product.

The cost in negligible but how can you compare it isn't anywhere close to the same stuff at all. You really can waste a lot less with 1:1 ratio and small batches when that is all you need and it stays put better so you definitely can use less. Warm it up and pour in a syringe and awesome way to apply it.

The cost not so much more. Quart of 105 is $50. Quart of 650 is $80. But the $105 need hardener yet at $28 for the size to go with the quart. So same price you just end up with a little more. But you need to use pumps for the 105 and not for 650 so all in all it isn't really that much more especially considering how much better it is for building glassless wood frame construction for mixing and dispensing and the quality of the bond it is going to make.

This is my first quart but it does appear or actually has replaced 105 and hardener for many gluing tasks.

I have used it and do use it all the time and feel it is a great product well worth any little extra money it costs. if you need a little you can have a small batch ready in 15 seconds and know you are going to get perfect cure with it's 1:1 ratio out of a squirt bottle.

You can of course use 105 and hardener and it still works just like it always did but with the new product maybe he was trying to get the point across that the new is that much better.

If somebody asked what battery to use I would tell them we don't use NiCad or NiMh anymore either and LiFe is the new battery in town. Sometimes they did cost a bit more when first coming out but not now 15 years in. Kinda a similar situation.
LiFe is so far ahead of the old stuff you really wouldn't use the NiCad or NiMh anymore. No reason too. You might even say they aren't and weren't EVER that good because they weren't which we know because we LiFe now and it is that much better.

You could have never said that without the world ending when the LiFe composition first was introduced. No one needed those stupid things.

It only took 15 years to convince some of the nay sayers we listened too for so many years say never. NiMh is still available but I do not see it being used by many any more. I have never seen anyone return to NiMh batteries in my 10 years of selling them but there were many that said they would never switch and once they did they surely wonder why they didn't give in sooner and try one.

There were valid concerns and downsides like if it goes dead it is garbage. They were often perceived to be more dangerous like LiPo. Most often I recon it was cost for the holdouts. New charger was the tough one. Electrically challenged was another and the balance cable and cell voltage and all that was not what they were ready to learn just yet.

Happy boating. Ne nice to see some normalcy return to the lakes this spring/summer. Sad we lost so many awesome boaters here recently.

 

[Eric Mattson]

I plan building G30 and I’m not painting hull. Has anyone used UV protection mixed in, to keep yellowing down in the sun?

 

[Daniel's Racing]

I plan building G30 and I’m not painting hull. Has anyone used UV protection mixed in, to keep yellowing down in the sun?

I personally would not mix anything with the epoxy that claims to add UV protection unless it was specifically recommended by the manufacturer of the resin/epoxy. You do not want to be the one doing the testing with epoxy compatibilities as it could end badly. Same for pigments of any kind pretty much.

The 2K sprays in the can are 2 part with hardener you activate and the spray nozzle is great for laying on a nice coat. Lays on nice and flows out nice and shiny.

I believe it is currently the best way to provide UV protection on your clear epoxy wood hull.

2K Clear coat - SprayMax

Amazon.com: USC SprayMax 2K Glamour High Gloss Aerosol Clear : Automotive

 

[riggerman]

Hi all i have used the 105 resin with the 205/ 206 hardeners and 404 filler for over 20 yrs for my plywood hull hull builds never had a glue joint separate so far just started using the G-flex 650 to glue fiberglass lipo trays to my hull . Regards Andris Golts.

 

[Gary Girvin]

Hi guys, let me rephrase what the West Systems tech said. He did not recommend using 105/206 by itself without a thickening agent such as micro balloons because it could run off and not thick enough for good contact. one of my failures was a Whiplash pictured here. pictures taken about 5 minutes apart, running almost 70 mph and results of bottom being stripped off. I repaired it by adding 1/8" square basswood strips to each frame, giving me a 1/4" gluing surface and using G flex thickened epoxy. I then clothed the whole bottom with carbon fiber and 105/206 resin. I am sure that it will not fail again. I have never used the G flex resin. I used the thickened epoxy in the squeeze tubes. Thank you, Gary

 

[John Beardslee]

Hi guys, let me rephrase what the West Systems tech said. He did not recommend using 105/206 by itself without a thickening agent such as micro balloons because it could run off and not thick enough for good contact. one of my failures was a Whiplash pictured here. pictures taken about 5 minutes apart, running almost 70 mph and results of bottom being stripped off. I repaired it by adding 1/8" square basswood strips to each frame, giving me a 1/4" gluing surface and using G flex thickened epoxy. I then clothed the whole bottom with carbon fiber and 105/206 resin. I am sure that it will not fail again. I have never used the G flex resin. I used the thickened epoxy in the squeeze tubes. Thank you, GaryView attachment 302385View attachment 302386

Are you sure he said micro balloons? It’s been my understanding that micro balloons are ok for fillets but not for construction. West has a number of fillers that can be used to thicken that won’t be as detrimental to the joint strength.

 

[Roxyflash]

I like silica mixed with epoxy cabasil never had a issue it’s white in color blends in well

 

[Bill Gibson]

Fumed silica is far better for thickening epoxy, John and Bruce are correct.
The more micro balloons you use, the easier the area is to sand, but the weaker the joint is....if it is a joint.

 

[dr gary turner]

I plan building G30 and I’m not painting hull. Has anyone used UV protection mixed in, to keep yellowing down in the sun?

MAAS epoxy does not yellow
You can get it at Jamestown specializing in Marine items