Valdosta

[Bill-SOCAL]

Then why was Mark able to run 14S through the traps last November? And, he destroyed at least two 40-160s and a big BAM trying.

Beats me, I was not there so I cannot say. All I can do is guess that the CD allowed it as a special deal or something. But 10S is the NAMBA power limit and as far as I have been told that is what we are restricted to at Legg. Our DIstrict Safety Officer runs at Legg and I know he is pretty serious about making certain that we follow the published rules.

 

[D. Newland]

I don't have an iron in this fire and it's been over 6 months since this event. But, I may have a different angle on this.

There are two reasons why I think NAMBA insurance would cover an illegal boat that is run at a sanctioned event. 1) It was allowed to run at a sanctioned event. 2) I highly doubt the NAMBA rulebook is an integral part of the insurance policy. If it were, the insurance company would have (alot) to say about what's in it, passed proposals would need to be reviewed legally, etc.

It's highly possible the rulebook is/was used for underwriting purposes to determine if NAMBA is a good risk, but I've never seen an organizations rules/by laws actually endorsed into a policy.

The issue isn't about coverage. It's about what happens to the coverage after a catostrophic event happens and the rules weren't followed. Rating surcharge? Cancellation?? Where does that leave NAMBA and it's members? Up a creek. Just one more reason why rules need to be followed.

Put the shoe on the other foot. Say your son was seriously injured by a model boat. One that actually didn't meet the "rules". Do you think you would continue to retain an attorney that would accept NAMBA's Insurance Co's denial of the claim? The driver would get sued, NAMBA would get sued, the CD would get sued, the City/County would get sued, etc, etc, etc. It may not all stick, but you better believe all involved will get sucked in.

We need to follow the rules. If something happens, at least we're following the rules.

 

[Bill-SOCAL]

Good points. I guess I was taking some of what they said on the website a little too literally. Thanks for helping me to grasp that fact!!

The website says you cannot be in violation of the safety rules, but the actual safety regulations make no specific mention of power. So in reality it appears that you can in fact run any kind of power you want to, with the only caveat being that for a record or race it has to fit into one of the recognized classes. AN open class would be really easy to set up then, no power restricitons and only the maximum 60" hull specified in the Safety Rules.

Cool. Who's going to write the Rule proposal for "Open"???

 

[MarkF]

I would like to set the record strait for those of you who like to play what ifs and are worried about it. I ran my 14s boat as an exhibition at an event that I put on. I have 2.5 million [AMA] worth of insurance in adittion to my namba ins. I burned up 2 40-160s in my 8s mono because of lack of water flowing through and my bam motor went south because of a bad batch of magnets. My boat was not part of a namba event when I ran it. I was however running a boat at a lake which requires you to have insurance and I did. People seem to get all worked up about power but they forget how much power a 100 mph twin or even single engine rigger has and how dangerous they are. But yet there legal so nobody worries about them and types things like what if your boat hit a kid. I agree you have to play within the rules when your racing or trying for a record and I agree you should have insurance anyways even when your not. I have always played within the rules and I can only hope that all those hooligans out there running illegal setups stop it before someone gets hurt. :angry:

Mark

 

[Bill-SOCAL]

Mark - the interesting thing is that you were completely within the NAMBA Safety Rules. The power limit seems to apply only to defined classes, nothing in the Safety Rules address that. It took me a while to figure that out. Insurance is contingent upon following the Safety Rules and you were. I hope there was no inference that you were doing anything unsafe.

This is why I think we do need a truly "Open" class so that people like you (and me) who are willing to fry motors and ESCs can do it and have it apply to a class record. B)

 

[lohring]

The current feeling in NAMBA is that any boat that does not fit into a rulebook class will not be covered by NAMBA liability insurance. The entire rule book, not just the safety rules, apply. I have been part of several discussions on the subject. NAMBA's insurance company does have a copy of our rule book and does use it to determine what it will pay. An example of this was a case where a dog was injured during a race. The insurance paid 1/2 the vet bill because the rules require that we not race with anyone else in the water. The insurance company felt that not enough care was taken to notify and prevent people or animals from entering the pond. Fortunately this was a small claim. The potential for serious injury to people is always there. If the NAMBA insurance doesn't cover an accident, I hope you carry multi million dollar liability insurance as part of your home owners policy.

The most powerful NAMBA legal internal combustion engine I know of is the CMB 35 with a little under 12 hp when modified. Twin 90's or a custom 30cc nitro engine might have as much as 15 hp. A T power plant running 12,000 mah cells at 30C could have 16 hp if you can build a speed control for the current. For SAW events well over 20 hp should be possible from today's batteries and motors. Speed controls for the current required are not commercially available. With the largest speed control presently available, 11 to 13 hp is possible in the T class.

Lohring Miller, NAMBA Safety Chairman

 

[Bill-SOCAL]

Thanks for that clarification Lohring. That could be cleaned up in the rule book and other places, because right now it appears that the Safety Code is what applies with regard to insurance coverage. The safety code makes no mention of power.

And just to take it one step farther, using greater than 10S power means that you are not covered by the NAMBA policy. This needs to be spelled out very clearly.

This is from the Section in the Rule Book that talks about Insurance:

5. NAMBA liability/property damage insurance is in effect any time a member isrunning a boat, not just during sanctioned events, as long as the member is observing

all the NAMBA safety rules.

And as I said, the actual Safety Rules make no mention of power limits.

This is also in the Rule Book:

D. DISREGARD OF SAFETY REGULATIONS1. Disregard of these safety regulations will cause the loss of insurance eligibility for the

member should an accident occur. Disregard of these safety regulations can also

result in the member being ejected from an event by the contest officials, or can cause

the member to lose use of a particular racing site.

And again, the actual Safety Rules make no mention of power limits and the section about insurance makes no mention that anything other than following the safety rules is required for coverage to be in effect.

 

[Doug Smock]

[quote name

This is why I think we do need a truly "Open" class so that people like you (and me) who are willing to fry motors and ESCs can do it and have it apply to a class record. B)

Lets think about this for a second.

There was a racer in Valdosta that took a 38" mono on 6s almost as fast as some folks have taken their 10s monos, (a bit faster than some) with no equipment loss.

I wonder if it was a fluke, or if this guy spent some time working with the setup to get there??

IMO What this tells us, is that we have only scratched the surface of what can be done with 10s power, and it makes no sense at this point, (at least to me) to stick our hands out and ask for more power.

Again, just my opinion,

Doug

 

[Bill-SOCAL]

Doug - I am just suggesting that it is an idea worth thinking about. You make a good point. But it is clear that there are people that will want to go the other direction. I am not sure it is needed, or even a good idea, but I do think there is nothing lost in at least thinking about it.

It is not about absolute speed either. If it was there would not be any classes, or if say a 6S boat went faster than an 8S boat that it would get both records.

Personally I think we have plenty of power, but I also think that more power could be done safely. Perhaps with a special waiver or something. But face it, there are people out there right now running 12S set ups without regard for IMPBA or NAMBA and this might be a way to get them into the fold.

To change gears, one rules change I think we REALLY need in NAMBA is adding Catamaran as a class. Right now cats can only race in offshore. To me offshore is a type of race while a catamaran is a type of boat. Why not have oval racing for them too. The gas world does it and it is one of the more competitive and fun classes.

 

[Flyguy55]

The current feeling in NAMBA is that any boat that does not fit into a rulebook class will not be covered by NAMBA liability insurance. The entire rule book, not just the safety rules, apply.

Lohring Miller, NAMBA Safety Chairman

Lorning , First of all , we should be racing to well written , clear rules and not depend on " feelings " or opinions.

Second , are you suggesting that Clubs racing Club Rules and or Club classes that don't comply with the " entire rule book " may not be covered by insurance ?

Dick Roberts

 

[Capt Ron]

this thread is a [iMPBA] Valdosta FE SAWS thread...

how this turned into a NAMBA rules discussion i'm not sure...

but could you folks start a new thread if you want to carry on with this topic please...

Thanks,

Ron

 

[Doug Smock]

"It is not about absolute speed either. If it was there would not be any classes, or if say a 6S boat went faster than an 8S boat that it would get both records''

Bill, this is a SAWs thread, and we run 2,4,6,8 and 10 s classes for records.

NAMBA has a brand new set of rules, take a year or two and see what you guys can do with them.

Another opinion,

FE growth isn't going to come to IMPBA or NAMBA in the form of guys running 12,14, or whatever (s )boats. There are but a few guys who's pockets have no bottom.

What do you say we back up here and focus on getting some new 2 and 4s guys out to the pond ? B)

Good luck with your cat class!!!

Doug

 

[Rigged]

What do you say we back up here and focus on getting some new 2 and 4s guys out to the pond ? B)

Im down to be sponsored by Smock Racing :lol:

 

[Rigged]

To change gears, one rules change I think we REALLY need in NAMBA is adding Catamaran as a class. Right now cats can only race in offshore. To me offshore is a type of race while a catamaran is a type of boat. Why not have oval racing for them too. The gas world does it and it is one of the more competitive and fun classes.

Cat is also legal in Open Hydro if its offered...

 

[MarkF]

Doug, how would that 6s SAW setup do in a 45" mono or a gas sport hydro for sport running? I dont think its going to cut it. I like to run the big stuff and if you dont run big power then your equipment gets to hot and burns up. I like the big stuff but its not for everybody. And yes I know you can get away with less power but Why would I want to go slower than a stock gas boat. So why do people want to try and dictate what is enough power when they dont really know. Its taking me several years and a lot of money to figure out what works and not. I use to run nothing but 6 to 18 cell boats and I know what they can do. I even think that I was the national high point champion way back when.One thing they dont do is run well with other big boats in big water. This isn't all meant for Doug I just wanted to give an example. By the way my girlfriend is an insurance agent and feelings have nothing to do with it. If your boat losses radio signal and takes off across the lake and hits somebody then that is an accident and the power plant in the boat is not the cause or reason for it.

Mark

 

[Doug Smock]

Mark, you're right, I wouldn't think of running that setup in a 45" anything for sport running.

Know also that I respect and admire you and what you have accomplished in your SAWs efforts, I know it aint easy. LOL

My opinions are based on SAWs racing. Do you need 12 or 14 s power to race in open classes with our IC brothers? I'd be the first to admit I have no experience in that arena.

Doug

 

[MarkF]

Thanks Doug, clearly you do not need anything above 10s to race but Im not racing. I just want to go out and be as fast as I can be for more than 5 laps if I want. I have airplanes that go over 220 mph and some that only do 60 mph. Its al about what you want to do at the time. The rules are for racing and breaking records and we need that. But I dont think people should tell us what we can put under the hood when were on our own time. As long as your responsible about it of course.

Mark

 

[Bill-SOCAL]

Do you need 12 or 14 s power to race in open classes with our IC brothers? I'd be the first to admit I have no experience in that arena.

I run with the gas guys quite a bit. My 10S mono is as fast, or faster than their open boats. I plan to race my Avenger 10S cat in gas Open at the next race, so we'll see how that goes. Randy, John Fruge' and I had no issues against gas boats at the Gran Prix Classic and Randy raced his 10S Stryker E-Cat against the gas boats at the Gold Rush race. Based on what I have seen 10S is fine for oval racing against gas boats. I've done it and seen it done. It works fine.

But for all out SAWS why can't we push the envelope if we want to?? It is not about needing more power to "keep up" or anything like that. It is about pushing the edge of performance and guys like Mark are crazy.... I mean "willing", to do that. So why shouldn't there be an Open class for them to do so in?? It takes nothing away from any other class that I can see. And with boats going 100 MPH and more with even less power I am not sure there is a safety argument against higher voltage boats that can hold water (sorry, I JUST had to say that!!).

 

[Capt Ron]

good job hijacking this thread gentlemen...

you want a 12, 14, 16, 18, any Open SAWS class in NAMBA SOCAL?

write a rules proposal and get it passed...

now start a new thread please so this one [Valdosta, F/E SAWS] can remain on topic...

WRG

 

[Kris Flynn]

No need to get upset...these guys are having a nice discussion about liability and such...they just happen to be doing it in a thread which was started about something that does not relate (anymore) at all