Time to look at FE

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Akiuk

Well-Known Member
Joined
Feb 24, 2008
Messages
132
Well after seeing the video of Steve R.'s boat and having seen some fast boats in person now..... I believe I need to get informed.

1) Who sells this stuff, motors , speed control, batts etc?

2) Is this all custom built products or COTS?

3)What kind of $ would it take to get top notch " electrics" to put in a rigger hull( like x hydro nitro class)?

I am looking for info now , thought some of you folks"probally" know the right places to get the goods.

Thanks for any input you would be kind enough to share. M.
 
Here are few of the items you asked info on:

Motor: http://www.neumotors.com/20061222/Welcome.html (this is top notch)

Cells : http://www.rclipos.com/ (Enerland cells: Thunderpower, PolyRC, Poliquest, Flightpower) (Top Notch)

ESC : http://www.castlecreations.com/ (These are the best for the buck, there are others that the cost is higher)

Hull : There isn't a Rigger that is in production that I can point at... Reezor's is Custom made, I believe there is a thread here that shows the progress.

my 2 cents

Well after seeing the video of Steve R.'s boat and having seen some fast boats in person now..... I believe I need to get informed.1) Who sells this stuff, motors , speed control, batts etc?

2) Is this all custom built products or COTS?

3)What kind of $ would it take to get top notch " electrics" to put in a rigger hull( like x hydro nitro class)?

I am looking for info now , thought some of you folks"probally" know the right places to get the goods.

Thanks for any input you would be kind enough to share. M.
 
I will post my set-up here with details of cost tomorrow.

I will add though that Doug Twaits Jr. just set a heat racing record last weekend in Michigan with his Eagle SGX on 8S LiPo power at just shy of 62 seconds on the 1/6th mile oval. My hull will go into limited production this winter after I work out a deal with my local CNC cutter for the parts. Until then, i will continue to test and develop the hull.

The Falcon gas rigger also makes an excellent FE hull.

Steve

E4_Rigger_Build_141.jpg
 
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As with any rigger design, the CG and balance point are very important. With LiPo batteries the size of the cells can dictate what you can do with any hull design (ie the avaialble space between the booms and behind the rear boom to the motor). FE motors can be quite large and heavy so this will impact how the hull is configured as well.

Improving LiPo technology (the availability of higher C rated cells - dischage rate, and capacity) will push designs to 1P (one pack or multiple packs in series). Our rules also allow us to run 2P - same voltage but two complete sets of packs in parallel to further increase capacity which can be used for either increased run time or increased amp draw to generate more power for a given set-up.

When I designed my hull, I stretched out the distance between the booms to accommodate the LiPo's I planned on running in it. Once I had this configuration, the motor was placed directly behind the cells. The sponson design was then determined by the boom spacing and ride height, and the distance to the nose of the tub, dictating overall length of the sponson. From the rear of the motor to the transom was governed by the distance between the sponsons and the afterplane I wanted.

Hardware is Speedmaster with a CMDI rudder (replacing the tapered rudder in the photo above). The turn fin was made from one piece of 0.125 aluminum.

The cowl was molded from carbon fibre.

I use a Lehner 3040/10T motor

http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=e...6lr%3D%26sa%3DG

This motor isn't necessary to go 80mph but it is large to help with the heat generated during a run, so its a better long term investment from my perspective.

With the strength of the Euro its going to run you around $700. As Jan pointed out, the Neu motors are every bit as good and much more affordable, and they are made and available in the US.

I use a Castle 180HV controller (another US product), a new product release from Castle (it means 180 amps continuous rating, for high voltage applications, up to 50 volts, more than enough voltage - our rules dictate 10S max voltage...ie 3.7 volts nominal per LiPo cell x 10 = 37 volts; they charge up slightly higher, but lets say 40V max.)

The 180HV MSRP at $450

The cells are available from a variety of vendors. Prices are coming down and deals can be had. depending on how you set it up, you can run 1P or 2P. On the high side, 10S2P can run you say $1,200...you can expect 100+ runs on them depending on how you treat them. Over heating them (drawing too many amps from them will overheat them...which is set-up dependent).

This is a high end set-up, and many are finding much more economical set-ups to go just as fast.

IMO budget $2,500 on the high side to put something like this on the water.

Of course you need charging equipment specifically designed for LiPo batteries.

You can ask questions here or on RumRunnerRacing and get other peoples opinions on what it will take to put a boat together that will get you the speed your after. remember, you don't need 10S to go fast. 8S is proving to be as fast and obviously MUCH less $$$. We are learning more and more as more people build high power set-ups and race them. IMO an 8S rigger could be put together to compete for under $2000. Certainly in the range of what many are already putting into their top level nitro or gas set-up. Already, Open mono set-ups are competing with 8S. Our FE 1/8th scales are now running 10S1P as opposed to 2P (twice the cost of batteries) and can hit 60mph on the straights.

Good luck!
 
Ub Hauled,

Thank you for the links and input.

Steve,

Thank you very much for all the input. Four questions I have specifically are as follows:

1) What and how are the electrics effected buy crashes and water intrusion( it appears the motors are left in "open air").

2) What specifically is a good charger/cycle unit and is said unit "smart" in the sense of monitoring batteries thru the process or does one need to be aware of the units settings and manually adjust acording to some derived conditions for the cells.

3)What is the "charge time" for the packs you mentioned, are they recharged after each run,and how fast is the other electrical items on the boat ready to be run again. The answer to this would be directly related to # packs to buy and how many test or races ( races probally not a time concern )the boat coud be run in a finite time frame.

4) Are the charges for said packs availible to run off DC , if so is there any need to have filtered and regulated current to the charger,or are they only availible in AC and if so does the hertz/ line voltage of the generator providing AC power need to be closely monitored.

Pricing seems very resonable unless you need a bunch of packs to run your boat alot for "testing".

Best Regards,

Mark
 
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I'll try and answer as best I can:

1.) As far as the elctrical components are concerned, the hulls have to be made watertight. The motors are not out in the open, we use tape down hatches or subhatches depending upon the hull. The components can get wet, the motors can be flushed out with WD40, the radio gear is the same as any other hull, the Lipo's can get wet (if water gets in the hull), shake them out at a race, when you get home, cut the shrink off and let dry by a fan, or leave the shrink on and put them in front of a de-humidifier. In a crash, the main damage could occur to the LiPo's (not as robust as NiMh were), so you must pay close attention to how they are secured into the hull. usually a tray in mono's and cats. I use velcro straps glassed into the tub in my rigger, with velsro on the cells as well. The LiPo's fit snugly into the tub with a foam cushion between the packs to ensure they don't slop around.

2.) Best charges for racing with high cell counts are made by Hyperion and ThunderPower. Hyperion now has built in balancers for the LiPo's (great feature), and probably the most popular

http://www.rclipos.com/Chargers.htm

3.) Charging time will range between 25-35 minutes depending upon charge rate and how much you took out of the packs. Rule of thumb - don't take out more than 75-80% of the pack's capacity in a run. Charge at the following rate: 1C for 25C packs 4500mAh capacity, charge at 4.5 amps for best life expectancy of the cells. After a run, you have to let everything cool off. cells will depend upon what you got them up to...typically 125-135F is safe (after 1.3 miles). The motor should be allowed to cool off as well. Typically this can take up to 10-20 minutes again depending upon how hot everything got during the run. Motor and Esc temperatures should not get over 125F for a well set up boat. In this case cool off time is not a problem.

This is for racing set-ups where everything is pushed hard. At a race, you have lots of time between heats to get everything ready. You don't have to peak these cells like NiMh so once your charged back up...your good to go, you can leave them alone until your next heat. In the spring here in the north and fall, I use a Coolatron cooler/heater on heat mode to pre-heat the cells to a minimum of 110F-120F ( the cells like to be warm). In the summer, its usually not a problem )best racing performance is obtained with pre-heated cells).

To answer your question... I would say min. 45 minutes between runs. When I am testing set-ups I usually take the GPS and do a couple laps, bring it in, check temperatures and I use a cell meter (http://www.hobby-lobby.com/cellmeter.htm) to check how much I am taking out of the cells. Change props and out again for another few laps.

4.) The chargers are typically DC. I use a good quality power supply that I run off a my generator. An inverter type generator is best like the Honda EU1000iC or EU2000iC and the equivalent from Yamaha EF2400iS. These are top of the line generators. A good 30-40amp power supply is a good idea as well. i use BK Precision 1692 (http://www.testpath.com/bk-precision-power-supply.htm?gclid=CK6Mj-GL45MCFRKLxwoddUk5Vw)

I hope this helps. I have been running FE for 18 years now, so I have acculated this stuff over the years. The sticker shock isn't so bad if you build it up.

To run a rigger like the one I have is a steep entry point. Probably too steep and unjustifiable for almost anyone. If you haven't run FE before, I would suggest something less exotic...I would honestly recommend you start with something in the range of a 4S powered rigger if you like riggers. They are capable of B Hydro speeds.
 
Thanks for all the info and insight. It is very kind of you to pass the knowledge on.

I have desided to slowly start "procuring" needed items for a 4S rigger.

Best Regards,

M
 
While the FE stuff has intrigued me for a while (Paul P. and others were rather helpful with answers about an FE 1/8 scale a while back), in addition to the boat costs, what does one need to invest in charging/monitoring equipment to safely and accurately charge, maintain and be race ready with these high dollar floating arc welders? And I mean that in a nice way as you FE cats are tossin' around some mean juice. :D
 
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Others can chime in Don, but I personally have about $1,000 invested in chargers and balancers. My charging system provides with enough charging capacity to run three Open style boats (10S LiPo set-ups, even in 2P or essentially two complete 10S battery packs) on a race day and be thrashing, and have plenty of time to enjoy the racing.

For those of you who may not know, Don and I raced against each other...and Don showed me the way around the course in a couple of heats at the Gas Nats last year. Don running his gas rigger, and I ran last years design FE rigger. Don's rigger runs smoooooooth, and he is a very good driver.

While the FE stuff has intrigued me for a while (Paul P. and others were rather helpful with answers about an FE 1/8 scale a while back), in addition to the boat costs, what does one need to invest in charging/monitoring equipment to safely and accurately charge, maintain and be race ready with these high dollar floating arc welders? And I mean that in a nice way as you FE cats are tossin' around some mean juice. :D
 
Others can chime in Don, but I personally have about $1,000 invested in chargers and balancers. My charging system provides with enough charging capacity to run three Open style boats (10S LiPo set-ups, even in 2P or essentially two complete 10S battery packs) on a race day and be thrashing, and have plenty of time to enjoy the racing.
For those of you who may not know, Don and I raced against each other...and Don showed me the way around the course in a couple of heats at the Gas Nats last year. Don running his gas rigger, and I ran last years design FE rigger. Don's rigger runs smoooooooth, and he is a very good driver.

While the FE stuff has intrigued me for a while (Paul P. and others were rather helpful with answers about an FE 1/8 scale a while back), in addition to the boat costs, what does one need to invest in charging/monitoring equipment to safely and accurately charge, maintain and be race ready with these high dollar floating arc welders? And I mean that in a nice way as you FE cats are tossin' around some mean juice. :D
Aw shucks, thanks for the compliment Steve. Your FE rigger was no slouch either which is why I'm asking. Might have to look into building one this winter once I finish all the house projects (painting, Florida room roof repair, new windows) & re-coop a little $$$. :wacko:
 
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I like the Hyperion EOS0610i DUO charger. It has built in balancers and can do two 6S packs at up to 8 amps each at the same time. They run about $270 each and with two of them you can cover anything you need to. You really only need two if you are racing a 2P set up that uses 4 packs. My 10S boats run 10S2P, but I get the 10S by using either a 4S + 6S pack or two 5S packs. So each boat has 4 packs. With two chargers I can charge all 4 packs at the same time. Plus this charger will balance each pair while they charge.

Then you will need a power supply too. Each charger can pull close to 25 amps at full power, so you need at least 50 amps to drive both chargers. Rivergate makes a great one.

Some info:

http://media.hyperion.hk/dn/eos/

good place to buy (Chargers and batteries):

http://www.rclipos.com

RiverGate Power Supplies:

http://www.rivergatedist.com/bulldog_75_amp.htm
 
Hey Bill do you think I can get away with 10s1p in my Bam powered Stryker Hydro?
 
Hey Bill do you think I can get away with 10s1p in my Bam powered Stryker Hydro?
Well it sort of depends on what you plan to do with it. For sport running it will be fine. Runs times will be shorter. I use around 5,500 to 6,000 mAh of capacity for a heat race, so you may be tight if you want to race. Either that or prop way down to keep the amp draw in line.

Besides run time the other advantage of a 2P set up is that you get closer to full voltage to the motor since the voltage depresion under load is less. With a 1P set up that pack has to take the full current load which will result in a lower voltage to the motor than a 2P set up.

There is plenty of room in the hull, so if you can swing it, I'd go 2P.
 
It is very interesting to see the pendulum swing in favour of 1P, because of higher capacities and C ratings and the possible ability to enhance balance better with some type of hulls with a series hook up. Ah the cost of new technology <_<

Douggie
 
Well in all honesty by the time I am ready to set this boat up I am hoping that there will be 40c cells available and I will be able to run 1p in my Sport setups. I don't race so I could probably get away with 1p now but I imagine a 43" hydro is going to be hard on cells.
 
Hi Guy's,

I'm also looking at FE and have a couple of questions. Firstly what is ment by 1P and 2P? Secondly have and option on a Axi 2814/10 and a Jeti 40A esc. I'm thinking of using them in a 30 inch mono good or not?

Thanks in advance.

Phil
 
The designation 2S1P 5000 mAh means you will have two 3.7-volt cells wired in series for 7.4 volts and 5000 mAh capacity. The designation 2S2P means you have two 2S1P packs wired in parallel for 7.4 volts and 10,000 mAh capacity. 10S2P means two 10S1P packs wired in parallel for 37 volts and 10,000 mAh capacity.

I have no idea about the motor you listed. 40 amps is pretty low for a 30" mono if you want any speed out of it. Most would use a minimum of 77 amps, with 120 even better.

.
 
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Outrunner motors are generally not used as a staple in heat racing boats. We have seen some use these in some light weight riggers with success but for the overall beating and higher torque required in a mono I reccomend an in runner type motor. There are many to choose from and opinions differ which is best/better than others. Same goes with some speed controllers too. What kind of mono are you wishing to use? Also, what are your intentions to use the hull for ie sport running or racing?
 
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