Thoughts needed on start rules
- Thread starter Grub
- Start date
Help Support Intlwaters:
Bill I have already organised another rookie to drive my boat but not real sure yet. If it falls through then I might take you up on that offer. The only thing is if something major happens, I have to call it quits for that day cause I don't want to be spending hours fixing it when I need to be running the event.
Thanks for the offer and don't worry about the beer down there as I'm driving down and we will have a bit of room for a case or two of anything you buy. At this stage its just me, the misses and Miss UP U-2 hittin' the highway on boxing day.
Grub
Look out Adelaide shops......here comes Mrs Grub
Thanks for the offer and don't worry about the beer down there as I'm driving down and we will have a bit of room for a case or two of anything you buy. At this stage its just me, the misses and Miss UP U-2 hittin' the highway on boxing day.
Grub
Look out Adelaide shops......here comes Mrs Grub
I'll drop a few cases around to dad's for loading in your trailer.
I will leave the decision about the CD'ing up to you. Watching your boat is not as good as driving your boat. I am sure we could get any repairs done, if need be.
Anyway, a professional driver like you should not have a problem. Right!
Wide Wild Bill.
I will leave the decision about the CD'ing up to you. Watching your boat is not as good as driving your boat. I am sure we could get any repairs done, if need be.
Anyway, a professional driver like you should not have a problem. Right!
Wide Wild Bill.
Hi Everyone
I like everyone have an opinion. I think there is a problem with any rule that makes a decision 'at the discretion of the CD'. Rules should be black and white. The CD has enough to worry about running the heats without worrying about if he should let someone go or not.
Having been invlolved in various motorsport/RC pursuits of one type or another I would be in favour of the rule read 'A boat must be started and on the course prior to the commencment of milling time' - any boat not launched or running before the commencment of the race shall be recorded as a DNS. Simple, no decisions, no debate.
As I don't race regularly I'm not in a position to debate whether or not someone might have got going or not - or how often this might occur. From my perspective if I could not get going and launched I would give up for that heat and try and sort it for the next one.
I guess that's my $0.02
GT :
I like everyone have an opinion. I think there is a problem with any rule that makes a decision 'at the discretion of the CD'. Rules should be black and white. The CD has enough to worry about running the heats without worrying about if he should let someone go or not.
Having been invlolved in various motorsport/RC pursuits of one type or another I would be in favour of the rule read 'A boat must be started and on the course prior to the commencment of milling time' - any boat not launched or running before the commencment of the race shall be recorded as a DNS. Simple, no decisions, no debate.
As I don't race regularly I'm not in a position to debate whether or not someone might have got going or not - or how often this might occur. From my perspective if I could not get going and launched I would give up for that heat and try and sort it for the next one.
I guess that's my $0.02
GT :
garrett randall
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I am an IMPBA CD and my two cents are... some rules just need to be judgement calls. Lap penalties and DQ's are, flying starts are...If you make launching a black/white rule, that every boat needs to be in the water at :30, what happens at 35 when a boat is running, and a cowl is being thrown on half way and the pit man is running towards the shore to throw it in in 5 seconds...that to me causes more unsafe conditons than if the boat is running, they calmly get the cowl on, and WALK to the shore to launch at say 20 or 15...a cowl could fly off, a pit man (woman) could slip...what I use at my races, is if the motor is started at :30, you may launch when your boat is ready to do so. I do REQUIRE walking, otherwise I will give the boat some sort of penalty. To me, that's black/white. Thanks
Garrett Randall
Garrett Randall
Hi Garrett
I understand your point - but mine was if the boat is not running (cowl and all if fitted) and on the water at the end of the 2 mins pits time you missed the race. If your engine is running at when the two minutes ends - bad luck shut it down until next time. This way there is never a need to run, no one launches at the last second risking a collition rushing to get on the course and the people already milling know they only have to worry about the boats already circulating on the course. My approach was to simplify things and not leave any openings for judgement calls. Black and White rule leaves no grief for the CD, other competitors or safety risks for the late drivers pit crew.
I haven't seen other forms of motorsport let you come flying out of the pits when the race is about to start, There must be a reason they don't allow it - my guess is safety.
GT :
I understand your point - but mine was if the boat is not running (cowl and all if fitted) and on the water at the end of the 2 mins pits time you missed the race. If your engine is running at when the two minutes ends - bad luck shut it down until next time. This way there is never a need to run, no one launches at the last second risking a collition rushing to get on the course and the people already milling know they only have to worry about the boats already circulating on the course. My approach was to simplify things and not leave any openings for judgement calls. Black and White rule leaves no grief for the CD, other competitors or safety risks for the late drivers pit crew.
I haven't seen other forms of motorsport let you come flying out of the pits when the race is about to start, There must be a reason they don't allow it - my guess is safety.
GT :
Hi Everyone
One further thought - Intent of the rules
Pit time = 2 mins to start and launch your boat
Mill time = 30sec for competitors on the course to mill into position in their lanes for the start of the race.
Logic tells me that they are two distinctly different period of time for different reasons. Otherwise you might as well have 2:30 Pit/Mill time and anyone can lauch up to the starting bell. I think this approach misses the point.
Hey just me being opinionated - probably not even worth $0.02
GT
One further thought - Intent of the rules
Pit time = 2 mins to start and launch your boat
Mill time = 30sec for competitors on the course to mill into position in their lanes for the start of the race.
Logic tells me that they are two distinctly different period of time for different reasons. Otherwise you might as well have 2:30 Pit/Mill time and anyone can lauch up to the starting bell. I think this approach misses the point.
Hey just me being opinionated - probably not even worth $0.02
GT
J
Joe Knesek
Guest
I think it should be black and white. From what I've seen, those who often need the time are those who waited 30 seconds to try to start the boat. 2 minutes is pleanty of time. When a boat goes in late, it throws off everyone when they should be focusing on the start.
Z
zemo
Guest
Hi guys i am new to this hobby only been a AMPBA member for about six months or so. just started up a club recently. I beleive if the boat is not in the water by the end of pit time it should be DNS. As the recording says no more boats in the water. How much clearer can you get. Should be no other option, it is fair for everyone as two minutes is plenty of time to start a boat. if a boat started after the pit time and startled another person, who was already out their. And the lat starter won the race, i do not see this right. Rules should be Rules that is why we have them. And if someone cries over DNS. He needs to go and look at what went wrong.
Don Templeton
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Looking back at my racing days with Indy Model Boat Club, we always had a launch official at the waters edge. If the pitman was up and walking to the launch area , and I do mean walking, when the pit time expired he was allowed to launch but only when the official gave him the all clear. In fact no boats were launched without his pointing and waving an OK to the pitman. This kept boats from being launched at the same time or in front of milling boats. He could also caution for a dead boat in the area.
DaddySundown
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This is the rule as it states in the APBA District 17 rule book.
1. A 30 second Mill Time shall be initiated at the expiration of Pit Time. Launching of boats at the expiration of Pit Time will be permitted providing the boat is ready for launch and has been removed from its stand. The boat must be launched as quickly as safety conditions permit.
This works very well.
1. A 30 second Mill Time shall be initiated at the expiration of Pit Time. Launching of boats at the expiration of Pit Time will be permitted providing the boat is ready for launch and has been removed from its stand. The boat must be launched as quickly as safety conditions permit.
This works very well.
EatMyShortsRacing
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Grub... I gather you have been waiting for me to bite as well...
The problem is when every race prior to the one where we had the incident was run under the basis that so long as the boat is ready to launch prior to the 30 second mark the boat has been allowed to launch no matter where the driver was. There is no mention in the rules about where the driver has to be. This obviously leaves room for interpretation. But when you change your interpretation of the rules especially at a national event without clearly stating at the beginning of the event that you intend on enforcing your idea of the rules instead of the generally accepted interpretation you are leaving yourself in an awkward position. People who spend a lot of effort and time building boats and in my case the organisation required and sacrifices I have to make just to get to a race to be faced with what amounted to an arbitary change of the rules on your behalf might easily start questioning why they made the effort at all.
Also the varying time it may take to SAFELY get from the pits to the driving area varies greatly between sites, so having the driver in place may vary greatly from when he starts the boat. Yes you may say that the driver should stand on the drivers stand and have the pitman start the boat, but each boat / motor may have their own way of starting and requires the owner who knows how to start it to be in the pits.
Go back to the intent of the rule and safety is one major concern, and secondly you should consider that getting the boats out there racing is also another benefit. Make a line ball decision like that and end up with a one boat heat???? Personally I'd like to see every boat possible on the water racing. Make your decisions for the benefit of racing and racing safely.
And maybe the AMPBA might want to look at this or a club may wish to ammend the rules so it is clearer to the CD and racers where the line is drawn.
My big issue over our incident is that you made a ruling in the grey area of the rules that was inconsistent with the generally accepted interpretation of the rules up until that time, and your decision was against the racer(s). Where a grey area exists, for the good of the sport, you should err in favour of the racer(s).
EMS Racing May turn up to a race now and then!!!
The problem is when every race prior to the one where we had the incident was run under the basis that so long as the boat is ready to launch prior to the 30 second mark the boat has been allowed to launch no matter where the driver was. There is no mention in the rules about where the driver has to be. This obviously leaves room for interpretation. But when you change your interpretation of the rules especially at a national event without clearly stating at the beginning of the event that you intend on enforcing your idea of the rules instead of the generally accepted interpretation you are leaving yourself in an awkward position. People who spend a lot of effort and time building boats and in my case the organisation required and sacrifices I have to make just to get to a race to be faced with what amounted to an arbitary change of the rules on your behalf might easily start questioning why they made the effort at all.
Also the varying time it may take to SAFELY get from the pits to the driving area varies greatly between sites, so having the driver in place may vary greatly from when he starts the boat. Yes you may say that the driver should stand on the drivers stand and have the pitman start the boat, but each boat / motor may have their own way of starting and requires the owner who knows how to start it to be in the pits.
Go back to the intent of the rule and safety is one major concern, and secondly you should consider that getting the boats out there racing is also another benefit. Make a line ball decision like that and end up with a one boat heat???? Personally I'd like to see every boat possible on the water racing. Make your decisions for the benefit of racing and racing safely.
And maybe the AMPBA might want to look at this or a club may wish to ammend the rules so it is clearer to the CD and racers where the line is drawn.
My big issue over our incident is that you made a ruling in the grey area of the rules that was inconsistent with the generally accepted interpretation of the rules up until that time, and your decision was against the racer(s). Where a grey area exists, for the good of the sport, you should err in favour of the racer(s).
EMS Racing May turn up to a race now and then!!!
I remember "that incident"!
All the more reason to get rid of any grey area, wouldn't you say Craig!
If it's cut and dry in the rules - then it's a lot easier for everybody in the long run - regardless of who the CD is. If the competitor doesn't like the call - a protest can be lodged and the protestor(?) has a better chance of getting a fair say.
Time is running out to submit a rule change for next year - hint hint
TimD racing: 21SG + MAC & tiny fuel tank= running out of fuel with 2 min's pit time!
All the more reason to get rid of any grey area, wouldn't you say Craig!
If it's cut and dry in the rules - then it's a lot easier for everybody in the long run - regardless of who the CD is. If the competitor doesn't like the call - a protest can be lodged and the protestor(?) has a better chance of getting a fair say.
Time is running out to submit a rule change for next year - hint hint
TimD racing: 21SG + MAC & tiny fuel tank= running out of fuel with 2 min's pit time!
EatMyShortsRacing
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Tim,
Dont look at me to start the ball rolling, I am having enough dramas organising my own life here!!!! Considering I just got another job (yes 7 months of holidays is probably long enough). Just getting boats ready to race is proving to be a challenge!!!!
EMS Racing Will finish a boat one day...
Dont look at me to start the ball rolling, I am having enough dramas organising my own life here!!!! Considering I just got another job (yes 7 months of holidays is probably long enough). Just getting boats ready to race is proving to be a challenge!!!!
EMS Racing Will finish a boat one day...
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Craig,
Altho I personally dont like Grub's rule interpretation on safety grounds, I do have to come to his defence. He DID clearly state what interpretation of the rule he was going to enforce at least at the first drivers meeting, I am not sure if he mentioned it on subsequent days, but I was aware thru out the meeting that those were the rules we would be running under.
I am the CD of the SA club at the moment, and I enforce the interpretation that is perhaps a little more common, that is if it is started with cowl on before the end of the 2 minutes it will be allowed to launch. I think that this is a safer interpretation.
Nitrocrazed racing: "you have not started..."
Altho I personally dont like Grub's rule interpretation on safety grounds, I do have to come to his defence. He DID clearly state what interpretation of the rule he was going to enforce at least at the first drivers meeting, I am not sure if he mentioned it on subsequent days, but I was aware thru out the meeting that those were the rules we would be running under.
I am the CD of the SA club at the moment, and I enforce the interpretation that is perhaps a little more common, that is if it is started with cowl on before the end of the 2 minutes it will be allowed to launch. I think that this is a safer interpretation.
Nitrocrazed racing: "you have not started..."
EatMyShortsRacing
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Ian,
If I took a sprint up to my driving position to make it on time I would have ended up A ofer T...
As I said, make decisions to make the racing better, not to the detrement of racing.
EMS Racing Dyslexics of Australia Untie!!!
If I took a sprint up to my driving position to make it on time I would have ended up A ofer T...
As I said, make decisions to make the racing better, not to the detrement of racing.
EMS Racing Dyslexics of Australia Untie!!!
Ok guys - now it's time to "s#1t or get off the pot". Clearly this rule needs addressing for competitors who travel to different events.
Please write down what you think the rule should read and if we can agree on something I'll submit it to the AMPBA. We have to do this ASAP if we want to submit it this year for a vote.
Please write down what you think the rule should read and if we can agree on something I'll submit it to the AMPBA. We have to do this ASAP if we want to submit it this year for a vote.
EatMyShortsRacing
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Simple,
Boats started and off the stand prior to the expiration of the 2 minute pit time shall be allowed to launch at the direction of the pit boss. (and EMS Racing boats can start whenever they damn well please!!! hehehe)
oh and just a thought, how about being able to launch boats started in the 30 second mill time with a lap penalty???
I'd prefer to see more boats on the water racing personally, but you can shoot this one down if you want....
EMS Racing I'm always late
Boats started and off the stand prior to the expiration of the 2 minute pit time shall be allowed to launch at the direction of the pit boss. (and EMS Racing boats can start whenever they damn well please!!! hehehe)
oh and just a thought, how about being able to launch boats started in the 30 second mill time with a lap penalty???
I'd prefer to see more boats on the water racing personally, but you can shoot this one down if you want....
EMS Racing I'm always late
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