Terrible Accident

[Mark Stein]

Dont go in the water,use a pole. And never try to catch a running boat,your begging for an accident.

And....an external battery disconnect should be a serious consideration.

I have often wondered why the are required in other countries yet not by Namba or Impba .

How about add another sign on the shoreline or run prop guards or a much more simple solution. Stay away from the damn prop!!!!. You cannot protect people from themselves

Having been a victim to my own ignorance when i was much younger ( had a run in with a table saw and I got real lucky). I got bit and it taught me a lot of respect in a big hurry. So yes I speak from experience. If you get complacent you are gonna get hurt. I remember this experience nearly every time I turn on a machine.

Print a copy of that picture and tape it to the top of your toolbox. I dont say that to disrespect the person this happened to. Picture is worth a thousand words

 

[Gilbert Pun]

Yeh, that guy not even dared to have his eyes on any props now.

 

[Chilli]

External disconnects require longer wire runs and an extra connector increasing resistance which will reduce performance and can increase ripple current putting more stress on the ESC. IMO the risk is much greater in a crowded hot pit or for a pit man rushing down to the launch area late in the mill with a running nitro or gas boat.Most of us FE'er follow a simple rule and that is to always treat a FE as if the prop is spinning. I'll support a safety loop when the internal combustion boats require prop guards.

 

[Grimracer]

Good post Mike.. I feel the beauty of a gas or nitro boat is you can "hear" the prop turnning. If you can hear the boat runing..the prop is turrning. The noise give you a heads up and instant respect. Model airplanes are the same way..

As we know.. if the battery is pluged in the "motor is running" A continual BEEP BEEP BEEP or some autable warning would be nice when the boat is "live" would be nice.. just a small simple reminder that does not "rob" the boat of power.

I for one dont feel prop guards add all that much.. When the boat is on the stand it can sit there all day and without somebody picking it up its position is understood. its when the boat is in the hands of the pit dude that can make this tricky, left. right, spin.... but we can still hear the prop!

FE boat are unasuming plugged in (running).. gas and nitro are not...

Just the nature of the beast.

Grim

 

[Andy Greene]

External disconnects require longer wire runs and an extra connector increasing resistance which will reduce performance and can increase ripple current putting more stress on the ESC. IMO the risk is much greater in a crowded hot pit or for a pit man rushing down to the launch area late in the mill with a running nitro or gas boat.Most of us FE'er follow a simple rule and that is to always treat a FE as if the prop is spinning. I'll support a safety loop when the internal combustion boats require prop guards.

So the risk of loosing performance is worth the safety risk ?? Not looking for a fight, just an observation....

- Lets step back and liken it to DB levels -

US vs The rest of the world, most places outside the US , The DB levels are strictly enforced because they have no choice- meet it or dont run. Yet they seem to " overcome" the noise issue and retain performance for the most part as reflected in oval records and SAW records. As far as the prop guard statement- what are you wanting to see- prop guards on the boats or just pit tables ??

ITS a Namba rule in D-3 to have a table with a prop guard- as should be everywhere if its not.

Im still trying to get a handle on how a prop guard would have helped this lack of judgment ?

Grim was spot on in his statement- its pretty darn clear when a gas or nitro boat is running or not running- the difference between those and F/E IS -

THERE IS ZERO way that boat is going to restart after it has stopped running all by itself, F/E -Not so much.

Safety Loops make sense- especially if you open your eyes and see the differences in the power sources............

That said, I personally dont run F/E anymore and dont plan too- but it IS a bird of a different feather that needs to treated as such.

Andy

 

[Robert Pickard]

Also rules state in both organizations must have shoes on closed in

 

[Chilli]

Andy, I see where your coming from. I'm just saying there are many risks in our hobby. If you are in a crowded busy pit and someone rushes a nitro boat off the stand and spins around prop first into another person or slips and drops a boat onto his lap while rushing to the launch area there is certain to be a trip to the ER. What could help reduce this risk? A prop guard. Not the ones required by NAMBA but a permanently mounted ring around the prop to prevent the spinning blades from contacting the epidermis. How do you thing this proposal would go over? I would guess that person would get run out of the IMPBA. LOL

Would a safety loop have prevented the accident in the original post? The gentleman who was injured was picking up his boat at the time. Those big bullets can bet mighty tight sometimes requiring two hands and my guess is it most of us would pick up the boat prior to pulling the safety loop.

The IMPBA rule book (section J) states "All electric models must be handled as if the motor is running. Retrieve boat operators will be reminded that when picking up dead boats to keep themselves clear of the propeller(s) on the model and to keep the propeller(s) clear of any obstructions in the retrieve boat." So far (as far as I know) this has been working. I always take a second at the drivers meeting or while folks are getting into the retrieval boat to remind them of this rule. Slowly it's being in ingrained in everyone's head.

I run both FE and Gas. Love em both!!

 

[Andy Greene]

Agreed on several points mike, esp mentioning it at the drivers meeting. Its always a good reminder to go over it every time just in case someone unfamiliar gets in the recovery boat.

And yeah, it would take some getting used to , and some obstacles to overcome - but the loops just make good sense imho, nothing more nothing less.

i don't run F/E and I am certainly not pushing any agenda on the guys that do, please know that, just a suggestion to at least help reduce the risk of someone getting hurt.

 

[Chilli]

Good discussion Andy. Even though we haven't had an accident at a race related to the original post (that I know of), doesnt mean we have to wait until ones happen to discuss prevention. Sometimes we get complacent on safety issues and these unfortunate incidents are a good reminder for us to review the rules and stay vigilant.

 

[Brad Christy]

Mike,

I will never run electrics, but if I were to, there is no way I'd let a couple tenths of a second on a six lap time force me to carry somebody's fingers on my conscience.

What about a soldered safety loop? Just an exposed two-pole connecter, but with a short segment of wire soldered in place instead of a slip-on "jumper". Retrieve boat personnel cuts the safety loop with a pair of wire cutters as soon as the boat is pulled from the water. A new loop is soldered on back in the pits. Zero increase in resistance or loss of voltage, yet safe for handling until a new loop is installed. Simple and effective.

Thanks. Brad.

Titan Racing Components

BlackJack Hydros

Model Machine And Precision LLC

 

[chuck st romain]

Ok, there are alot of valid points. I play gas, nitro and fe. I always pick up and hold an fe boat the same as I do a running nitro boat. Which leads to my question.

Does anyone have a solution to launching gas boats solo. We just play alot and when everyone is driving there is not always a pit person available to launch.

Just wondering of anyone has tried a handle or has any easy way to self launch a big gas hydro like we easily do for tunnels n riggers.

I know how dangerous it is now, just looking for an easier way

 

[chuck st romain]

Just a side note. I've had alot of fe boats and never had one glitch or run away on me without touching the throttle. I use a neck strap but set the transmitter down before going to the water (I slipped n submerged a 3pk). I understand treating fe as live at all times but honestly feel they are far less likely to bite than nitro or gas. I agree with chili, I'm not looking to in grease resistance, I'm looking to decrease it. Say anything u like about performance over safety. I also play with lipo battery, 65% nitro and gasoline.

 

[Gilbert Pun]

We do put handles on big Gas boats, such AC Lazer and Petron St 52" long boats and Strykers. We practice a swing out manner to launch these big boats by one hand on the handle and the other holding on to the transmitter.

But no handle on FE boats, so we use both hands to handle big FE boats in and out of the water.

 

[Chilli]

Mike,

I will never run electrics, but if I were to, there is no way I'd let a couple tenths of a second on a six lap time force me to carry somebody's fingers on my conscience.

What about a soldered safety loop? Just an exposed two-pole connecter, but with a short segment of wire soldered in place instead of a slip-on "jumper". Retrieve boat personnel cuts the safety loop with a pair of wire cutters as soon as the boat is pulled from the water. A new loop is soldered on back in the pits. Zero increase in resistance or loss of voltage, yet safe for handling until a new loop is installed. Simple and effective.

Thanks. Brad.

Titan Racing Components

BlackJack Hydros

Model Machine And Precision LLC

Brad, The main issue isnt so much performance decrease as it is ripple current in high amp applications. Wire runs between battery and ESC have to be kept to a minimum. We usually try to keep lengths around 6-7 inches or less. A safety loop would have to be mounted off to the side of the boat away from the hatch. This would double the amount of wire used in many applications. The added increase in resistance casuses ripple current that I can best describe as a electrical jack hammer. It stresses the the ESC and can lead to a failure. I dont think any FE boater would go for having to solder between heats. Charging packs is already a PITA plus having a hot soldering iron laying around would cause it's own safety issues.

Chuck, I have seen a few glitches a few years back when using FM radio's on overturned boats sitting in the middle of the pond and it did concern me. Now that most of us are using 2.4G, I havent seen a glitch since.

 

[moparbarn]

Mike, if you haven't seen a dead fe glitch on 2.4 then you haven't been in the retrieve boat enuff....LOL! I haven't seen it A LOT at our races, but I wouldn't call it entirely uncommon. The fe boats worry/scare me in the retrieve boat!! At least with gas or nitro, I KNOW that boat is DEAD - fe boats are like a loaded gun with a hair trigger, they can go off at ANY time! Just have to treat them that way (-; BTW, what is it about nitro that scares you????? LOL!!!

 

[Grimracer]

Yea know.. I have never thought of it that before.. guys entering the retrieve boat with "running" boats on the water (FE).. sure.. most of the time they are upside down.. but not always.



Hum…What if.. one of those light up and make their way to the chase boat WFO.. whew.. what do you say to the owner of the chase boat you just impaled or the guy you just sent for a swim.. sorry?



In the 9.5 years I have been involved in designing and what not.. I have never cut myself nor had a nasty runaway. (the Alligator tours one time but that was just DAM FUNNY..nitro boat). So glad I never had an issue.



Food for thought.. that’s all.



Grim

 

[Chilli]

You know I've been in the retrieval boat plenty Robin. Maybe not at our race the last two years because no one else in the club is willing to become a CD. That's just the way it is. The only thing that scares me about nitro is the cost of fuel. The rest is risk assessment and situational awareness. If you want we can start keeping track when these events occur. I'd like to know the numbers.

What I'm trying to convey folks is there are unique risks involved with running FE's just like any other power source in our hobby so you learn to take appropriate precautions. Stay clear of the prop at all times when retrieving a FE boat. Don't retrieve a gas boat by grabbing the exhaust pipe. We can "what if" the FE boats till the cows come home but I've seen plenty of real stuff happen that has scared the crap out of me over the years. Like folks loosing their footing when launching running fuel boats or runaway fuel boats nailing the shore. I've also heard stories of boats blasting over the shore safety netting narrowly missing racers and spectators. So while I appreciate you all striving to running FE's 100% risk free, there are plenty of other area's that could use our attention.

I'm starting to feel like a dog chasing his tail so I'm bowing out of this conversation.

Peace Out!

 

[Grimracer]

not busting nuts here.. I don't know why but for me I just never put two and two together.. There is no way to approach a "dead" FE boat safely in a chase boat.. except maybe from the back...

It can sit out there for quite some time and could.. likely not... but could start back up.. Or somebody "could" bump the throttle..

Anyway you look at it there are risks for both

Sharp hardware.. they both have that.. we get that.

If a nitro or gas motor is not running its not going to re-start NO MATTER WHAT.. just not going to do it.. if you flip it and its on its feet is just going to float until its picked up.. a FE boat COULD start up at any time.. you would never hear it coming.

Lets be safe out there.

Grim

 

[Ray Sametz]

I don't run electrics, so this may be dumb question? If boat is DNF can the driver just kill the transmitter. With no signal it can't start again.

 

[Andy Greene]

You know I've been in the retrieval boat plenty Robin. Maybe not at our race the last two years because no one else in the club is willing to become a CD. That's just the way it is. The only thing that scares me about nitro is the cost of fuel. The rest is risk assessment and situational awareness. If you want we can start keeping track when these events occur. I'd like to know the numbers.

What I'm trying to convey folks is there are unique risks involved with running FE's just like any other power source in our hobby so you learn to take appropriate precautions. Stay clear of the prop at all times when retrieving a FE boat. Don't retrieve a gas boat by grabbing the exhaust pipe. We can "what if" the FE boats till the cows come home but I've seen plenty of real stuff happen that has scared the crap out of me over the years. Like folks loosing their footing when launching running fuel boats or runaway fuel boats nailing the shore. I've also heard stories of boats blasting over the shore safety netting narrowly missing racers and spectators. So while I appreciate you all striving to running FE's 100% risk free, there are plenty of other area's that could use our attention.

I'm starting to feel like a dog chasing his tail so I'm bowing out of this conversation.

Peace Out!

Hang out Mike, this has been a pretty civil conversation and the input doesnt hurt one bit. And once again your right, there are a ton of areas that could use re-enforcing safety wise. Some clubs can afford to , some cant. A perfect example of a boat leaving the pond at a very high rate was several years ago when Jorge blew out of Legg lake at the saws. a 5 foot tall safety fence would not have caught that boat, and it went a heck of a long ways. Any boat - nitro gas or f/e is capable of exactly the same thing at any time. Between heats when I'm a spectator and usually taking pictures, I'm super aware of where I stand when certain classes run (twins esp) because I know the damage that one could do - even with every current safety procedure followed. Hang around long enough and you WILL see stuff you thought could never happen in a million years.

On a lighter note- hows is our victim healing up ???