Schumacher U-88/U-37

[nicholashansen]

Hey guys,

Just thought id share some detail and plans/ideas that ive been progressing with on this project, moreso even due to this apparently being one of the more relatively unique hulls that I havent really seen produced in 1/8 scale (as far as my own experience). I have been meaning to engage in more activity here on Intl, as I have been lurking for some time now and I feel as though the demographic and composition of members have a noticeably deeper general veteran style perspective than that of, say, OSE. That said, im definately exclusive to brushless power, but regardless I feel like I could garner better critique for this particular project and its goals from members here

Okay, ill start off by stating that im still on the fence somewhat about how far ill actually progress with this build, as I have sort of gotten a little in over my head with current projects and need to regroup. I know for sure I want to at least test the hull for a few sessions, most likely before any primer even touches the hull just because im very curious of how it will perform with its bizarre ride surfaces. So basically, if I do scrap the possibility of completing and racing it, ill be listing it here first to anyone whose interested.

For specific info on the bare hull itself, it began as a typical T6 made by Steve Gualtieri at RCBC. In all honesty, I had to wait far longer than I ever anticipated I would be waiting to finally recieve the hull AND all its necessary parts, and I had some incorrect preconceptions that were apparent to me after inspecting the hull closely (and combining that with just learning more about hydros in general during this time period). So I ended up setting it aside and ignoring for a while until recently. Ive always loved the all the subtle design features that Ron Jones implemented into the Schumachers latest hull, in particular the dropped sponsons, the strakes on the outside non trips, and the way the back end of the rear shoes had the angle reversed to that of most other boats on the circuit. Since I am more comfortable ATM building into a composite hull if I can, I wanted to make this hull as scale accurate on these features as I could.... and as of late I feel as though ive done a halfway decent job. And this is in addition to all the modifications Ill be doing to accomodate performance in conjunction with a brushless/lipo conversion.

Heres a few of my fav snapshots of the hull.... ive been having trouble deciding which race id choose to rekindle but I must say, she sure looked friggin amazing back when they first unveiled her as the U-88 Degree. The two pics of the hull are exactly how it is at the moment, but im going to post pics and show all the stuff ive done so far to it.

Thanks for reading

 

[nicholashansen]

When I first recieved the hull from Steve, it was basically an all CF version of his T6 with a couple small changes. He had already started work on the drop sponsons for me, and he used some foam, ply, and epoxy mixed with graphite powder to extend the back rear shoes so I could cut and sand them down to look more like the real boat. I have always thought Steves T6 looks very well proportioned and mirrored of the real thing, apart from the underside of course. But in this case, if I wanted to be satisfied and invest in this hull to be the Schumacher team boat, then it was going to need ALOT of work...

To start, I felt like aside from the fantastic cockpit, the cowling needed to change. The shape and size were all correct, but the point in which the air scoop began and where the cockpit ends was far too large, and the air scoop itself was also far too high. So I cut and seperated the cockpit from the cowling, and then cut and trimmed off about a 0.25" or so around the bottom of the air scoop. Then I proceeded to remove alot of material from the front of the scoop as well, so it could be scootched foward and rebonded with the cockpit. However, actually rebonding the two ended up being rather difficult as there wasnt much surface area to work with and the air scoop bearing over the bond area also made it cumbersome.... So I shaped a piece of foam to act as a bridge for the epoxy. You can also probably tell from the pictures I posted of the real boat, that I am fond of the saltwater snorkel... So clearly I had to have one for the scale version! Steve provided me with this as well, but I could tell when I got it that it was modeled after the slightly longer, flat faced one that the Oberto would use so often. This was an easy fix, as I just cut the front to be at an angle parallel with the cowling, and then angled it axially also to accomodate the aerodynamics in turn. Looks far more like the full size snorkel now.

The pink/light purplish stuff on the port sponson, is foam with west and 407 filler over the top. Im still working on this modification, but im basically adding some height to the top of the deck in that area, as the downward sweep on that sponson on the real boat wasnt virtually nonexistent beforehand. The dropdown before seemed to just begin at the front of the sponson, and stayed level all the way to the back, whereas the real boat has a very pronounced "V" like shape to the angle of its drop. The port sponsons is much more apparent in this feature and its important to me that I get this part of the boat correct. I still need to add a little more height to the front tip of the sponson, and a little bit more to the middle, but i just got the 410 filler and I havnt tried it yet so ill use that this time as its supposed to be much easier to sand.

I wished I hadnt gone and epoxied the ram wing into place already. I didnt realize it at the time, but the ram wing included with the kit is massive! Looking at photos of the real hull, the wing is much smaller in comparison, and is a much more teardrop-like shape overall. Hopefully I can remove it cleanly, as I dont want to have to remove the carbon fiber rod underneath it.

 

[Hydro Junkie]

Welcome to the world of "redesigned" boating. Several of the boats I'm working on have some sort of reworking involved as well. While it does take time, the results are well worth the effort so don't get discouraged

 

[nicholashansen]

I got a little "winded" so to speak from all the typing I did in that small time frame, but I actually didnt even get to the biggest change I made....

Basically, when I recieved the hull, I was very impressed overall with the quality of the "fiberglass" work. Compared to a couple other epoxy hulls/parts ive gotten, this one was alot closer to being ready for primer and paint than the others. Not completely loaded with tiny pinholes and the seam was done very nicely, inside and out. THAT being said however, I simply cant believe how heavy of a friggin layup this thing has! I mean being all CF, it really already would be plenty tough and durable, but now I feel like its a darn TANK. Not necessarily the best way to describe your hydro..... So this frustrated me quite a bit, as it was so substantial that I felt discouraged. But after looking around a bit more and gaining some resolve, I decided to tackle the issue.

Obviously this will be a goal that will last the entirety of the project and its not necessarily hit or miss in terms of success, but im pretty happy at this point with what ive accomplished so far.... It started with the engine tub and the floor in it. The entire hull itself is rather thick and I know Steve adds some extra reinforcement on top of that in the engine well....and as if that werent enough, theres TWO sheets of 1/16" ply laminated into the hull. I thought there was just one, but theres actually 2, with one extending a little farther foward into the cockpit. I figured that, combined with the wood blocks that are in place underneath more and more layers of CF, were probably pretty heavy..... and boy was I right. After tearing out most of the floor, what you see in the picture is basically the floor from the "radio box" to where the turbine tray would start... and guess what? that alone weighed a whopping 20 oz!!! I couldnt believe it.... and now I had this huge gaping hole in the floor. I proceeded to grab some poster paper and trace the cutout onto it, and then I cut out a piece of wood with that paper as a template. Then I sort of cut a U-like shape from the wider top portion, which was to accomodate the belly pan/cockpit running down the underside. From there on was pretty simple, I just stacked some ply and sanding each side down to blend in with the hull, and mixed some west with 406 silica to fill in any gaps between the wood and hull. Since then I fiberglassed the inside, with 2 layers in the engine tub, and just epoxied the outside and started glazing and fairing over it. Its turning out great, and the hull is already so much lighter with all that material removed!

 

[Hydro Junkie]

I may get crucified for this but that, in a nutshell, is why I don't like composite hulls. You touched on one of the problems: WEIGHT. Unlike a wood framed hull, a FG or CF hull normally needs extra bracing to prevent the second problem: FLEXING. This means extra layers of fabric and the mandatory resin to adhere and fill the mesh or, as you discovered, plywood. My FG 2000 Elam has plywood in many areas to prevent flexing. When you consider that it's 14lbs without fuel, that means the boat weighs in at well over 10 by itself, less engine and radio. In comparison, I've seen a complete wood boat, including fuel, that weighed between 8 and 9 ready to launch. Being that lite, it was a hand full to drive but it was easily also the fastest boat running at that time in the Pacific Northwest.

 

[Gale54]

This is my 37 project.

 

[Gale54]

I may get crucified for this but that, in a nutshell, is why I don't like composite hulls. You touched on one of the problems: WEIGHT. Unlike a wood framed hull, a FG or CF hull normally needs extra bracing to prevent the second problem: FLEXING. This means extra layers of fabric and the mandatory resin to adhere and fill the mesh or, as you discovered, plywood. My FG 2000 Elam has plywood in many areas to prevent flexing. When you consider that it's 14lbs without fuel, that means the boat weighs in at well over 10 by itself, less engine and radio. In comparison, I've seen a complete wood boat, including fuel, that weighed between 8 and 9 ready to launch. Being that lite, it was a hand full to drive but it was easily also the fastest boat running at that time in the Pacific Northwest.

To each his own

 

[nicholashansen]

Well in terms of raw volume or material, piece for piece composites are lighter than wood...The main content of my post was mostly in regards to Steve, for whatever reason, utilizing such a heavy and thorough layup. I simply dont see any reason for it needing to be that strong and thick, and even moreso considering an electric setup is heavier in general than a nitro setup, and obviously his hulls werent made to accomodate electric configurations. I mean this thing this thing is THICK.... It doesnt flex, and it maybe just bows a tiny tiny bit when I press down hard in a couple spots, only because of the walls being removed in the inside.

Certainly whatever weight is dictated by how you approach your project from beginning to end. Weight certainly is important to me, considering how heavy this would most likely be once I have a 56mm motor, two 5s lipo packs and a large ESC..... But at the same time, like you said, I cant imagine driving a hydro on 10s that weighs less than 14lbs, doesnt sound like it would be very fun. For me, its extremely satisfying when a hydro is just gliding across the top of the water with perfect stability. Having a little bit heavier boat can help with that, its usually the balance accomodations being polished and perfected to achieve this I would imagine.

But one of the biggest reasons I like composites is how easy they are to fix and modify. With epoxy systems like West, you have a ton of freedom with how you can approach your goal, and theres now so many different ways with how hulls can be manufactured. I feel like our sport could grow alot with this aspect, however traditionalist views are still extremely dominant. In all honesty the only thing thats changed with the sport since its inception by Roger, may he rest in peace, is power delivery, and even that still hasnt seen much evolution in regards to what has evolved as a whole. Brushless systems are still in their early stages whereas in the rest of the RC field they have long since taken over.

Im pretty darn certain that if we had someone producing modern style hulls with decent scale accuracy, that come with a white gelcoat, a molded lip on the engine tub, and a nice layer of CF on the inside, the sport would grow immensely for obvious reasons....even if it was really expensive. I mean when Proboat made their 1/12 bud hulls, they sold like hotcakes almost purely because they had a halfway decent looking hull (in yet to us scale guys, it looks terrible). Good enough for them to use it another 3 times for the LLumar, Elam and Formula.

Oh, and great looking boat Gale

As a matter of fact, ive had your pics of it saved on my phone for quite some time.... I remember first seeing pics of it on Phil Thomas's facebook page. That paintjob is stunning!

 

[Hydro Junkie]

I may get crucified for this but that, in a nutshell, is why I don't like composite hulls. You touched on one of the problems: WEIGHT. Unlike a wood framed hull, a FG or CF hull normally needs extra bracing to prevent the second problem: FLEXING. This means extra layers of fabric and the mandatory resin to adhere and fill the mesh or, as you discovered, plywood. My FG 2000 Elam has plywood in many areas to prevent flexing. When you consider that it's 14lbs without fuel, that means the boat weighs in at well over 10 by itself, less engine and radio. In comparison, I've seen a complete wood boat, including fuel, that weighed between 8 and 9 ready to launch. Being that lite, it was a hand full to drive but it was easily also the fastest boat running at that time in the Pacific Northwest.

To each his own

And I totally agree with you Don. BTW, I have to agree with Nicholas, that boat looks fantastic. Hopefully, in the not too distant future, the wife and I can come back to Madison for the Regatta so I can see it first hand

 

[scott williamson]

Well in terms of raw volume or material, piece for piece composites are lighter than wood...The main content of my post was mostly in regards to Steve, for whatever reason, utilizing such a heavy and thorough layup. I simply dont see any reason for it needing to be that strong and thick, and even moreso considering an electric setup is heavier in general than a nitro setup, and obviously his hulls werent made to accomodate electric configurations. I mean this thing this thing is THICK.... It doesnt flex, and it maybe just bows a tiny tiny bit when I press down hard in a couple spots, only because of the walls being removed in the inside.

Certainly whatever weight is dictated by how you approach your project from beginning to end. Weight certainly is important to me, considering how heavy this would most likely be once I have a 56mm motor, two 5s lipo packs and a large ESC..... But at the same time, like you said, I cant imagine driving a hydro on 10s that weighs less than 14lbs, doesnt sound like it would be very fun. For me, its extremely satisfying when a hydro is just gliding across the top of the water with perfect stability. Having a little bit heavier boat can help with that, its usually the balance accomodations being polished and perfected to achieve this I would imagine.

But one of the biggest reasons I like composites is how easy they are to fix and modify. With epoxy systems like West, you have a ton of freedom with how you can approach your goal, and theres now so many different ways with how hulls can be manufactured. I feel like our sport could grow alot with this aspect, however traditionalist views are still extremely dominant. In all honesty the only thing thats changed with the sport since its inception by Roger, may he rest in peace, is power delivery, and even that still hasnt seen much evolution in regards to what has evolved as a whole. Brushless systems are still in their early stages whereas in the rest of the RC field they have long since taken over.

Im pretty darn certain that if we had someone producing modern style hulls with decent scale accuracy, that come with a white gelcoat, a molded lip on the engine tub, and a nice layer of CF on the inside, the sport would grow immensely for obvious reasons....even if it was really expensive. I mean when Proboat made their 1/12 bud hulls, they sold like hotcakes almost purely because they had a halfway decent looking hull (in yet to us scale guys, it looks terrible). Good enough for them to use it another 3 times for the LLumar, Elam and Formula.

Oh, and great looking boat Gale

As a matter of fact, ive had your pics of it saved on my phone for quite some time.... I remember first seeing pics of it on Phil Thomas's facebook page. That paintjob is stunning!

im not sure if there's much of a market for highly detailed scale hydro hulls that fit your description. I don't think enough people would be prepared to pay an amount that would make it profitable. You would needs heaps of different molds for all the various boats and year variations. Ive built fibreglass scale hydros for others but id nevr get rich doing it.I would think most people who build and sell scale hydros do it mainly because they want to encourage the hobby , even at the risk of someone getting on a forum like this one and bagging the crap out of their work.

 

[nicholashansen]

*sigh* this is exactly what I mean, people so quick to come up with random excuses as to why outside ideas shouldnt be implemented..... PROGRESSION over TRADITIONALISM guys!!

Okay, first, no one within our community is going to produce any single thing for scale hydroplanes based on the intent of making profits..... and in addition, to even mention an expectance of "getting rich doing it" is absurd, we all know that already. Really dont get where you got influenced into this train of thought, and It bewilders me that you recognize the obvious observation that we all do what we do for the fufillment and encouragment of the hobby still after illustrating those expectations. The only thing im discussing is the composition and material makeup of the hulls, as even among the very small amount of guys whom would be considered anything close to being a retail style hull manufacturer currently, still have to charge a premium price for their hulls, easily ranging on average from 600-1000$ for a modern style hull. Everyone already knows that these guys arent making much money at all, if anything, by producing and selling this stuff. You would have to be pretty clueless honestly to not recognize that they are racers/builders themselves.

Secondly, I didnt say highly detailed, I said halfway decent in terms of scale accuracy. Again this is obvious, the scale hydro community is really small and the boats themselves are practically labors of love and require an exorbitant amount of more work than any other typical rc boat of prominent categorization, and I say this purely in regards to acquiring/building a hull. This fact alone is provides clear reasoning in a large aspect as to why the sport is difficult to grow......Thats fact darn near, and to argue in any way that simply providing another option and provider of hull(s), regardless of its composition/quality, helps the sport gain new people. And to then make that hull the most commonly sought after style, in a form thats closer to paint and finishing than any other and can accomodate current power systems?? I think that speaks for itself. Guys who are entirely new could simply enjoy the fun of choosing a boat, experiencing the tuning and culture of the sport, and best of all, can see how fun it is to drive one of these! Then all the rest of the typical seasoned veteran racer and builder qualities will come in time.....But right now, building a scale hydroplane is so far out of the question for majority of boaters.

and honestly this stuff isnt even entirely an idea, its already been done! Check out this hull I have.... everyone that I have shown this hull, including several guys completely ignorant to everything hydros, were really intrigued and impressed with this hull. They loved the aesthetic appearence and most telling, nearly every one wanted to know where I got it. No one was interested in how much it costs or had anything remotely negative to say. and guess what, its only 31"!! Like I said, if the general public looks at the Proboat hulls for so long as quote" beautiful" and "stunning," then imagine how people react to this! just look at the gelcoat finish....its going to be a tiny fraction of the work typically required to have this ready for paint. Theres 1/6 scale versions of these hulls that are extremely expensive that sell like hotcakes... and the guys driving them invest alot more in them than the typical 1/8 scale racer, and these guys arent even seriously racing or even educated H1 enthusiasts! yet still pay and invest more in their boats that are just for recreation.... what does that tell you? I gaurantee you it started with their fondness of the hull upon seeing it for the first time.

 

[CokeaColaGuy]

Well said Nicholis , you work looks to be very hi quality. I look forward to watching your progress with this project. More people building boats the better.

 

[scott williamson]

At the risk of provoking another hissy fit .... i dont know Steve , so i wont be losing any sleep over it , but did you ask him why the boat needs to be that strong and thick ? as you put it, or how much it would weigh?

You would probably consider this idea to be too "TRADITIONAL" ,but if i have a problem with something that i purchased i would get my money back , get a replacement, or if i hadn't done enough research, just deal with it, not criticize it on a forum.

Im sure Steve didn't add more layers of cloth because he had too much time on his hands. Everyone has different ideas about how a boat should be built .

My point was, dont expect too many people to be inspired to develop and sell quality scale hydro hulls when the ones who do get criticized for their work.

 

[Gale54]

I think Steve adds so much stiffness in that area because of the motor mounts go threw the bottom of the boat. He built it to be a nitro boat. When you ordered the hull did you let him know you where running it as electric? This reminds me of the Lite All Star it was built to be powered by a rolls Royce merlin. But they put a turbine engine in it and couldn't figure why it was just to lite.

 

[wayne middlemiss]

Yeah it's that easy, if you don't like the way it's made ,don't buy it, don't crap on the man for his efforts of providing a service , I have dealings with Steve and I'm happy with the products and service provided , after all they are a stand off scale not true museum scale

 

[nicholashansen]

At the risk of provoking another hissy fit .... i dont know Steve , so i wont be losing any sleep over it , but did you ask him why the boat needs to be that strong and thick ? as you put it, or how much it would weigh?

You would probably consider this idea to be too "TRADITIONAL" ,but if i have a problem with something that i purchased i would get my money back , get a replacement, or if i hadn't done enough research, just deal with it, not criticize it on a forum.

Im sure Steve didn't add more layers of cloth because he had too much time on his hands. Everyone has different ideas about how a boat should be built .

My point was, dont expect too many people to be inspired to develop and sell quality scale hydro hulls when the ones who do get criticized for their work.

that was not the point you were getting at and you know it, or else you simply would have said so from the start.
Let me say first before I address all this is that I was making a point in in the very beginning as to why the sport isn't growing with newcomers.

*facepalm* why are you bringing Steve into this? again, no part of you considered my perspective and thought, "maybe he's already thought of or knows this" I have made plenty of positive notes regarding to my time with Steve and I Gaurantee he looks at me as a splendid, repeat customer. the only gripe I had was with the waiting period.... and yes steve did indeed know it would be electric.

the other stuff? blows me away that you guys construed as jabs toward his character and skill, am I monkey to you? uh, no ita not traditional, its COMMON SENSE. anyone would get their money back if they aren't happy with product! obviously I didn't because I'm VERY happy with it, but of course this doesn't even remotely occur to you. people making modifications to their hulls to save weight and improve scale accuracy are commonplace, and so is the provided reasoning behind them. can't believe I have to remind you of that.

all that is besides the point anyway! I'm not talking about the specifics and processes of tangibles in boat building. Again, your post is clear example of what I'm talking about. the bigger picture is being overlooked. I'm tired of people saying they encourage the hobby and just want the sport to grow, in yet in any event in which progression is apparent (change is obviously inevitible with progression), too many people suddenly go up in arms as if blasphemy is abound in their "territory." they don't want to flex on anything. doesn't feel welcoming to potential newcomers at all. that's what I'm trying to illustrate, and what I originally said about the hull style id like to see, was a simple "would be cool to try" idea toward achieving this.

 

[Samuel Hagan JR]

So why isn't the sport growing with new comers. Please explain again. I didn't read that part.

 

[scott williamson]

I did ask for it didn't i? im going inside now and locking the doors, this is getting way too weird .

 

[wayne middlemiss]

Don't hide under your bed, he will find you, lol .

You just have to build your own toys Scott , ease up on the big words I'm flipping through the dictionary flat knackers to keep up .

 

[nicholashansen]

You want me type something for you to read, because you..... didnt read it the first time? wow, somebody skipped class the day comprehension was taught

......and reading.... for that matter. haha

Funny, no comments or posts being critical or nitpicking!

Well, THANKFULLY, I do actually have an obligation to still help newcomers feel welcome....... because part of me feels like some people are just playing dumb in guise to not having any credible material to present.

I did ask for it didn't i? im going inside now and locking the doors, this is getting way too weird .

In other words:

Well I look like a fool now.....

Well said Nicholis , you work looks to be very hi quality. I look forward to watching your progress with this project. More people building boats the better.

Ah, Thank you

See, not all is in vain!