Rules

[KenOlvis]

Don its a rigger hope some day Joe Bishop makes the TRIKE II

 

[Andy Brown]

WOW, funny how things get twisted around! #1, No my wife did not kill me. #2, I never produced the Trike because I could never get it to run to my satisfaction. To any one that saw a so called Trike run, it was not designed nor built by me. #3, The Phantom was way ahead of its time and was far too complex for the average boat racer. I had planned to simplify it and lighten it as well. My personal Phantom would consistently run in the 100 MPH range. LOL, I saw these old post and just had to respond to them. Have a great day! Joe Bishop

Hi Joe,

Thanks for posting. I used several of your products. They were great! Probably still have some parts in a box somewhere.

I never saw a Trike run, but I saw a Trike kit box on the wall in a Ft. Lauderdale hobby shop ( run by Howard Weeks) in 1975/77. I guess I forgot who produced it!

 

[JOEBISHOP]

Hey Andy, maybe you didn't read a later post of mine but I recanted my number 2 statement. I did build a few kits of the TRIKE. After 35 years, I had just forgot about doing it, LOL! After thinking about it, I remembered all the guys that were ragging me to build some kits of TRIKE so I built some with the understanding they would give me feed back on their setups. I was never satisfied with it's performance. When I did get it to go fast it wouldn't turn and when I got it to turn, it wouldn't go fast. Real "catch 22"! Joe

 

[JOEBISHOP]

Ken, I don't know if I will ever produce a TRIKE II. It is a beautiful design that I never got to run to my satisfaction. Now in the physics sense, it should work much like an outrigger with a ski "in reverse". I think one of my biggest problems was turn fin location and balance. After I get a little more caught up, I might build a .45 size one and send it to you and you can see what you can figure out.

Guys, I read this forum and I agree "if you want to get confused just try reading the IMPBA rule book", LOL! Too much referring to other sections and rules. I have been a tech writer all my adult life and I would do it much simpler!

As for the definition of a hull

#1- A monoplane hull is one that rides on one single wetted surface.

#2- A hydroplane hull is one that rides on multiple wetted surfaces.

#3- A outrigger hydroplane is one that the sponsons are not an integral part of the hull.

#4- A canard hull does not fall under the rules of a sports hydro in it's configuration because IMPBA only allows so much of a "pickle fork". It does not fall under the rules of an outrigger hydroplane unless it has "boom" mounter outer sponsons. I really don't think, in all fairness to other racers, it belongs in any class other than catamaran.

 

[John Finch]

You don't need boom tubes to make a boat an outrigger. The Wing Ding has a flat piece of extruded aluminum between the tub and sponsons. I have a gas rigger that has a block of wood between the tub and sponsons. They are both outriggers, so why not a fiberglass web between the sponsons and tub? Nitro rules are pretty much ok. The gas classes are in need of definition. There is no definition in the IMPBA rule book on the gas outrigger and the sport gas hydro class has no definition on how the deck meets the sponsons. The way I see it an outrigger does not have a continuous surface from the hull to the sponsons. There must be a break, ridge, or defined line of separation. Some of the sport gas hydros are looking like riggers with a fiberglass or wood web between the sponsons and tub. They should be classed as outriggers. That is my opinion, but like I said.....there is no definition of a gas outrigger in the IMPBA rule book and nothing on the deckline in the sport gas hydro rules. These issues need to be resolved as they are starting to surface at the race sites. I agree with Joe.....the canard fits well in the gas cat class.

John

 

[TimothyJones]

One of the things I like with sport 40 is you can run in 40 hydro as well(which is mostly riggers)

I really do not know these rules that well.

Tim

 

[TimothyJones]

I have been reading and doing my own process of eliminating.

Impba sport 40

III - SPORTSMAN 40 HYDRO (SPORT 40 HYDRO) A. Boat Specifications 1. Boat must be inboard powered. 2. Hull must be a three (3)-point hydroplane configuration and resemble a limited or unlimited hydroplane design of past or present, except outrigger, modified outrigger, tunnel, or canard hulls are NOT permitted.

IMPBA Gas Sport Hydro

. Hull Specification a. The hull must be a three (3)- point suspension hydroplane (“Technical Standards”, Hulls Classification, 3-point Suspension Hull) with two (2) individual steps (sponsons). In between these two steps, (sponsons) the Hull must be solid and continuous with no separation, gaps , or boom tubes. These steps (sponsons) must terminate at or before the hull mid-point.(see Fig.1 Item A) The Sponsons may have breaks or pads.The Hull must be continuous with no steps or extra planning surfaces aft of the hull midpoint. No rear “shoes”, “pads”, or “wedges” are allowed. The only exception to the 3-point requirement is the Canard hull (“Technical Standards”, Hulls Classification, Canard Hulls), defined as having two rear sponsons and a single forward sponson will be allowed to run in the class.

 

[Mark Bullard]

Maybe we need to change the rules back to match the nitro rules. Leave rigger out of the name and call it Large Gas Hydro. This takes all of the questions out of it.

 

[TimothyJones]

Its seems like it would have to run with riggers in nitro(at a disadvantage maybe) and running gas it would be Sport Hydro....Weird.

I know its been addressed this way LOL

Where does it say it cant run with riggers in gas ?

It just says it allowed to run with sport hydro,not a must, so it would need/could run gas rigger and sport hydro.

That the way sport 40 and 40 hydro nitro works

Tim

 

[KenOlvis]

This is a hobby that we all enjoy and for the most part enjoy to see newer an older design come to light.I think if NAMBA also IMPBA adapt hull configuration to that of the full size hydro's hulls we would be more inline.They have a large tech to make decision.Then the job of the hydro tech an builders has guide lines When Options come in to play this is what we get.

Principles are meant to be guidelines.Well refined principles will be still effective when time moves on; but the rules may need continue to be updated when circumstances change.

We may see more changes in the full size classes

my2cents

 

[John Finch]

The gas classes were designed arount hull types while the nitro classes were basically mono and hydro with the exception of the specialty classes. Nitro classes ran cat boats againt riggers and that was not even close to fair for all those years since the 1950s. so........when the gas classes started to take hold the guys decided to make classes that were more fair. Cats, monos, and hydros were separated. Trying to put same speed boat hulls in the same classes. Now sport hydros are as fast as outriggers! Wow, they came a long way, but they are now looking very much like riggers. Sport hydros have wider tubs, which help to keep the boats light on the water with heavy gas motors, so guess what......some sport boats are now faster than outriggers. That is how the gas classes became different than the nitro classes. And it makes sense!

John

 

[FloridaScaleBoater]

Very good explanation John,,

And make's perfectly good sense to me.

 

[ZZ RACING]

So what class is this canard

I would say that since there is a break in the deck between the tub and sponson it would run in the Rigger class. Sport Hydro rules says the hull deck must be continuous with no gaps. In gas open Hydro, you can run Riggers, Sport Hydros, and Cats. Remember if it's not a Mono, it's a Hydro.

From the IMPBA LSG Sport Hydro rules

"Hull must be solid and continuous with no separation, gaps , or boom tubes."

 

[Andy Brown]

The gas classes were designed arount hull types while the nitro classes were basically mono and hydro with the exception of the specialty classes. Nitro classes ran cat boats againt riggers and that was not even close to fair for all those years since the 1950s. so........when the gas classes started to take hold the guys decided to make classes that were more fair. Cats, monos, and hydros were separated. Trying to put same speed boat hulls in the same classes. Now sport hydros are as fast as outriggers! Wow, they came a long way, but they are now looking very much like riggers. Sport hydros have wider tubs, which help to keep the boats light on the water with heavy gas motors, so guess what......some sport boats are now faster than outriggers. That is how the gas classes became different than the nitro classes. And it makes sense!

John

First off, I must say there is lots of good dialog going on here.

I just want to point out that Canards and Cats were a competitive force in the large hydro classes in the early and mid 80's. Canards won the prestigious Indy Unlimited, among other major events. While not as fast in the straight, they were much quicker through the corners. It took a few years for the riggers to regain the lead in the hydro classes.

In 1987 I had a run off for the IMPBA US-1 Championship with Larry Maglinger and his .67 Stiletto canard with my Mongoose 67. I won the run off. The best Crapshooters and Coyotes were in attendance, but could not compete well with the quicker cornering Stiletto and Mongoose. That was the beginning of the end of Canard dominance that had gone on for several years before.

 

[larrymaglinger]

I remember that race!

 

[Andy Brown]

I remember that race!

Me too!

I think our run off was a close race right down to the finish.

 

[John Finch]

So what class is this canard

I would say that since there is a break in the deck between the tub and sponson it would run in the Rigger class. Sport Hydro rules says the hull deck must be continuous with no gaps. In gas open Hydro, you can run Riggers, Sport Hydros, and Cats. Remember if it's not a Mono, it's a Hydro.

From the IMPBA LSG Sport Hydro rules

"Hull must be solid and continuous with no separation, gaps , or boom tubes."

I agree!

 

[JOEBISHOP]

You don't need boom tubes to make a boat an outrigger. The Wing Ding has a flat piece of extruded aluminum between the tub and sponsons. I have a gas rigger that has a block of wood between the tub and sponsons. They are both outriggers, so why not a fiberglass web between the sponsons and tub? Nitro rules are pretty much ok. The gas classes are in need of definition. There is no definition in the IMPBA rule book on the gas outrigger and the sport gas hydro class has no definition on how the deck meets the sponsons. The way I see it an outrigger does not have a continuous surface from the hull to the sponsons. There must be a break, ridge, or defined line of separation. Some of the sport gas hydros are looking like riggers with a fiberglass or wood web between the sponsons and tub. They should be classed as outriggers. That is my opinion, but like I said.....there is no definition of a gas outrigger in the IMPBA rule book and nothing on the deckline in the sport gas hydro rules. These issues need to be resolved as they are starting to surface at the race sites. I agree with Joe.....the canard fits well in the gas cat class.

John

John, I said "booms" not boom tubes. Booms can be fashioned from anything. My original PHANTOM had "L" shaped aluminum booms. Joe

 

[Hydro Junkie]

Names of hull configurations that have run has a hydroplane in the big boy classes

1) Spoonbow. (also known as "shovelnose." Though I prefer the former since a shovel can have a lot of different shapes.) Where did you find the name spoonbow? I've never seen anyone refer to a classic round nosed boat using that name. Shovel, round nose and pointed round nose are what they have been called for decades. A variation is the "chisel nose", that being given to the Valu Mart

2) Conventional, referring to a front-engine configuration

3) Cabover, referring to a rear-engine configuration

4) Picklefork, referring to a spoonbow that's been cut. Picklefork is used to refer to any boat that has the bulnose or leading edge of the ram wing BEHIND the front of the sponsons. Just being cut off could be a chisel nosed boat as well

5) 3-point, referring to most hydroplanes since the Slo-mo era

6) 4-point, referring to the old Circus and Elam.

Now, here's where things get a little dicey.

7) Cabover, picklefork, solid deck. Example: 1979 Budweiser. Is there a name for this? Yes, a cabover picklefork, the first being the 1970 Pay'N Pak AFAIK

8) Cabover, picklefork, and a pair of small wings breaking up the solid deck. Pioneered by the 1982 Atlas Referred to in the big boat community as a "blow hole" or canard boat. Any boat with a front wing with or without a movable flap or a completely movable wing is a canard boat. This was actually started with the turbine Pak. It didn't work on the Pak as the movable canard was too close to the bulnose, making the boat more likely to blow over than it was to stay on the water due to aerodynamic affects due to the short distance

9) Cabover, picklefork, pair of small wings with driver controlled flaps (canards). Common style through the mid-80s and 90s. Same as #8

10) Cabover, picklefork, one massive canard running between the sponsons in front of the cockpit. May have a spar. Common modern style. Again, same as #8

11) Tri-wing. I know at least one Circus hull (the weird looking one Chip drove but never qualified afaik) ran in this configuration. Actually, to be a legal hull for R/C, it had to at least qualify, which it did in 1990. It never raced until the bottom was filled in later as the U-25

12) Not tri-wing... But what does that make Jim Harvey's T-Plus? The Circus had three wings, but the T-Plus only had two, with the edge of the first wing near the back. Also, the Budweiser T4, which had that strange pair of wings in the middle of nowhere attached to the sponsons in front.

13) Bud T4, T-Plus & Coor's Dry were all "Double Wings" when originally built. (T4 was a reverse delta style)

14) Circus Circus (1990 built), Fendler's boat, and Aussie Endeavor were all Jones designed "Triple Wings or Tri wings" when originally built.

Displacement Hull (early gold cuppers)

Shingled/Step Hull (Miss America, Miss Pepsi, etc)

Believe 3 points started with Ventnor's back in the 30's. First 3-point, that I know of, was the Slo-Mo Shun III, a limited class hull. Prior to it, any time the back of a boat tried to fly, weight was added to force it back down

Outrigger style - late 60's pay-n-pak

Canard Style - Circus (late 70's/80's) & Elam

Lobster Boat (Winston Eagle)

Tunnell Hull (Texmo, Arcadian, Tempus (last one), a few others)

In my eyes, boats with today's single canard wing, or 80's/90's dual canards, and standard 3 point cabovers (70's-80's) are same basic design with improvements in aero over the years. The spar was hidden in the dual canard wing set up, which allowed for a deeper picklefork design, to dump air.

The Winston Eagle "Lobster Boat", had both air traps & a tunnel, they ended shortly after the sponsons. It also, had front canard wings covering the spar. Unlike a current configuration - it didn't have a tunnel all the way to the transom, and what transom it has, was VERY narrow.

Found this info very informative.

Ken

Addressed some things to update information

 

[KenOlvis]

Names of hull configurations that have run has a hydroplane in the big boy classes

1) Spoonbow. (also known as "shovelnose." Though I prefer the former since a shovel can have a lot of different shapes.) Where did you find the name spoonbow? I've never seen anyone refer to a classic round nosed boat using that name. Shovel, round nose and pointed round nose are what they have been called for decades. A variation is the "chisel nose", that being given to the Valu Mart

2) Conventional, referring to a front-engine configuration

3) Cabover, referring to a rear-engine configuration

4) Picklefork, referring to a spoonbow that's been cut. Picklefork is used to refer to any boat that has the bulnose or leading edge of the ram wing BEHIND the front of the sponsons. Just being cut off could be a chisel nosed boat as well

5) 3-point, referring to most hydroplanes since the Slo-mo era

6) 4-point, referring to the old Circus and Elam.

Now, here's where things get a little dicey.

7) Cabover, picklefork, solid deck. Example: 1979 Budweiser. Is there a name for this? Yes, a cabover picklefork, the first being the 1970 Pay'N Pak AFAIK

8) Cabover, picklefork, and a pair of small wings breaking up the solid deck. Pioneered by the 1982 Atlas Referred to in the big boat community as a "blow hole" or canard boat. Any boat with a front wing with or without a movable flap or a completely movable wing is a canard boat. This was actually started with the turbine Pak. It didn't work on the Pak as the movable canard was too close to the bulnose, making the boat more likely to blow over than it was to stay on the water due to aerodynamic affects due to the short distance

9) Cabover, picklefork, pair of small wings with driver controlled flaps (canards). Common style through the mid-80s and 90s. Same as #8

10) Cabover, picklefork, one massive canard running between the sponsons in front of the cockpit. May have a spar. Common modern style. Again, same as #8

11) Tri-wing. I know at least one Circus hull (the weird looking one Chip drove but never qualified afaik) ran in this configuration. Actually, to be a legal hull for R/C, it had to at least qualify, which it did in 1990. It never raced until the bottom was filled in later as the U-25

12) Not tri-wing... But what does that make Jim Harvey's T-Plus? The Circus had three wings, but the T-Plus only had two, with the edge of the first wing near the back. Also, the Budweiser T4, which had that strange pair of wings in the middle of nowhere attached to the sponsons in front.

13) Bud T4, T-Plus & Coor's Dry were all "Double Wings" when originally built. (T4 was a reverse delta style)

14) Circus Circus (1990 built), Fendler's boat, and Aussie Endeavor were all Jones designed "Triple Wings or Tri wings" when originally built.

Displacement Hull (early gold cuppers)

Shingled/Step Hull (Miss America, Miss Pepsi, etc)

Believe 3 points started with Ventnor's back in the 30's. First 3-point, that I know of, was the Slo-Mo Shun III, a limited class hull. Prior to it, any time the back of a boat tried to fly, weight was added to force it back down

Outrigger style - late 60's pay-n-pak

Canard Style - Circus (late 70's/80's) & Elam

Lobster Boat (Winston Eagle)

Tunnell Hull (Texmo, Arcadian, Tempus (last one), a few others)

In my eyes, boats with today's single canard wing, or 80's/90's dual canards, and standard 3 point cabovers (70's-80's) are same basic design with improvements in aero over the years. The spar was hidden in the dual canard wing set up, which allowed for a deeper picklefork design, to dump air.

The Winston Eagle "Lobster Boat", had both air traps & a tunnel, they ended shortly after the sponsons. It also, had front canard wings covering the spar. Unlike a current configuration - it didn't have a tunnel all the way to the transom, and what transom it has, was VERY narrow.

Found this info very informative.

Ken

Addressed some things to update information

Thanks for updating