phil thomas and .21 valvola issues

[tmunn]

I am tying to setup a new boat and am very much a newbie.I was able after messing with the engine for a couple hours to run a couple tanks through it.

I have the p/t sport 20 with valvola and ops 3280 pipe set at 8.5 " from weld to plug.I have on now a 4052 prop.

I have the strut set at 1-1/16"fom the bottom of the boat to the table as per instructions.

When i launch the boat it cavitates a lot and you have to feather the throttle to get up on plane.

If i make big wide turns it will run up on plane but if i turn to quickly it will bog like it is stalling and won't seem to respond to the throttle.

If i back out of the throttle it will cavitate rev up and then move forward slowly.

I cannot tell if it is up on the pipe because i have not much experience with these boats or engines to know what it should sound like.

Any suggestions as to what I should try next or does someone have a similar setup that is dialed in ??

Thanks

Terry

 

[P THOMAS]

Probally the 4052 is slipping Did you sharpen and baleance the prop?

How are you launching the boat? You need to give it a flat toss to help get it going.

You need to use a x440 2 blade or 3 blade or a M440 2 blade,

even a x437/3blade prop will work with out slipping much on the launch.

Turn down the steering throw till it will make about a 20 foot radius circle when using full turn If you have to much steering it will make the boat bog down. We set the right throw about 75 % and the left throw about 50%, you will have to experiment with the throw settings so it will drive ok without hooking or bogging down.

 

[tmunn]

The prop is slipping big time.

I have been giving it a good hard flat launch.

Turns have been wide and gradual or the boat would bog and then the prop would slip.

I noticed at a crtain speed the boat would "hook' as you mentioned to the right and I could actually let go of the steering control once into this situation and as long as i maintained speed the boat would continue

making a large right turn until steering correction was made or throttle reduced

The turn fin looks perfectly straight.

I will try an x440/2 and an X440/3 today that and a prater 215 is all i have for now.

ANY IDEA WHERE A GOOD PIPE LENGTH WOULD BE ....OPS 3280 AND VALVOLA ???

Thanks a lot ......wish me luck...

Terry

 

[tmunn]

Out of all the props I tried I got the best performance with the Prather 215.

I tried x440/2 and x440/3 an 4052 but the engine would not get up and take off.

It is sluggish and underpowered.except for once it ran like a scalded cat ,,,,now maybe i just happen to have the 215 on when something else went Right I really don't know.

The best run was when I rasied the strut as high as the bracket would alow and just after i shortened the pipe from 8" to 7-5/8".

I am running the ferret base o.s. remote needle,one hayes 4 oz fuel tank on each side of the boat close to the C/G.

Cmb .21 valvola with ops 3280 pipe set center of engine to weld, front radio box.I am using an inline fuel filter and the tanks are setup to empty one and then the other .they seem to work and the engine starts excellent.

A lot of the time it acted like it would not take it's fuel.We chased the needle around a lot and ended up only having one good run that it went really crazy fast.

One thing I have been thinking about is that I had the pipe cut off at the engine side and another slightly larger dia. pipe welded on in it's place.i did this so it wouls slide on over the cmb header for a nice tight fit and tuning purposes.

Is it possible that the increased dia. of pipe which would be slightly larger diameter would require a shorter pipe distance ???

and the boat is not actually getting on the pipe.and staying there.?

 

[RodneyPierce]

try lengthening the pipe. Might help it pipe up abit easier, and give you that added torque. Try 8 1/2 inches perhaps? After all, you can always shorten the pipe back up if it doesnt work............

 

[tmunn]

Rodney,

I have been thinking alot about that and am going to try it tomorrow at 8.5"

It can get kinda frustrating since there is nobody in my area with boat experience..

Terry

 

[Brian Blazer]

The M440 is an excellent sport20 prop. Sounds like the boat doesn't like the prop. Set your pipe to 8" to 8-1/4", get an M440 prop and you will be in the ballgame. I found out today that the 3280 nitro pipe works better with an internal stinger to the weld as opposed to nothing at all.

Brian

 

[Richard Dahlheimer]

The M440 is an excellent sport20 prop. Sounds like the boat doesn't like the prop. Set your pipe to 8" to 8-1/4", get an M440 prop and you will be in the ballgame. I found out today that the 3280 nitro pipe works better with an internal stinger to the weld as opposed to nothing at all.
Brian

Terry, make sure you have fresh fuel. ( 50% nitro), and set the head ckearence to .008. Set fuel mixture on the beach, so motor sounds rich, when you open throtle. Use recommended prop, sharpened and balanced. Dont worry about getting pipe to short, until you get used to the boat. (8.5 - 83/4) to start with should get you up and running. Richard D

 

[tmunn]

Guys thanks a lot .i know what you guys think of this low nitro content but I only have Fresh 30 and 35% nitro for this boat and don't have access to 50%

The boat woke up at one point and that tells me that the fuel should not be an issue for just playing around and what i need to do.

If i could get it to work like it did that one time i would be happy.

I have some thoughts of my own for today after reading parts of a book last night and these posts but what do you guys think.

I will lenghten the pipe out to 8.75"

For sport running which of these props(they are all I have right now) do you think i should have the best chance of a decent launch and staying up on plane and pipe ??

X440/2

X440/3

X442/2

P215

4052

Here is what i have for plugs which one should I try ?

o.s #8

mcoy #9

odonell red dot.

k&B 1L

fuel

30% redmax boat.

35% promix.

Does the use of a du bro inline filter have any negative affect on performance ?

I know there are a lot of variables to this question.I live in an area close to sea level similar to many parts of maine(not sure what it is exactly)and it is only around 40-45 degrees F.

Any suggestions on LSN that is stock and HSN settings using the O.S. inflight needle and the Don ferrette base ?

I have the strut depth way up in order to take some laod of the prop because the engine seemed underpowered but during the day yesterday it was up down all around

I'll give it another go today after Church..

Thanks a lot for anything you guys can do..

Terry Munn

 

[RodneyPierce]

Guys thanks a lot .i know what you guys think of this low nitro content but I only have Fresh 30 and 35% nitro for this boat and don't have access to 50%
The boat woke up at one point and that tells me that the fuel should not be an issue for just playing around and what i need to do.

If i could get it to work like it did that one time i would be happy.

I have some thoughts of my own for today after reading parts of a book last night and these posts but what do you guys think.

I will lenghten the pipe out to 8.75"

For sport running which of these props(they are all I have right now) do you think i should have the best chance of a decent launch and staying up on plane and pipe ??

X440/2

X440/3

X442/2

P215

4052

Here is what i have for plugs which one should I try ?

o.s #8

mcoy #9

odonell red dot.

k&B 1L

fuel

30% redmax boat.

35% promix.

Does the use of a du bro inline filter have any negative affect on performance ?

I know there are a lot of variables to this question.I live in an area close to sea level similar to many parts of maine(not sure what it is exactly)and it is only around 40-45 degrees F.

Any suggestions on LSN that is stock and HSN settings using the O.S. inflight needle and the Don ferrette base ?

I have the strut depth way up in order to take some laod of the prop because the engine seemed underpowered but during the day yesterday it was up down all around

I'll give it another go today after Church..

Thanks a lot for anything you guys can do..

Terry Munn

x440/2

KB1L

Redmax boat mix 30% (would suggest the 35% but not sure of the oil content)

 

[Mike Larson]

Terry, lotsa information, and good stuff here, Phil's the hydro master, and his words will accomplish your goal..... Now, to insert my limited opinion, First and foremost i would go back to the set up instructions, and follow them to the letter, check, even if you know youre right, and look for a discrepency..... Phil's boats rock, he's done his homework........ My theory has a lot of possibilities, like, 1, i think its a turn fin issue, causing the "bog' in the turn , then consequently, cavitation, and the hook.... possibly the rudder... is it square/perpedicular on the transom, kicked in or out? I am about to help a freind trim out his new thomas hull shortly, and you will help me as much as I can you, so, take what i say for what you'd like. Is your dual tank system built correctly/ ie: pipe to vent in tank 1, pickup in 1 to vent in 2, pickup in 2 to to the needle? In the boat so that the course run centfrigually keeps the fuel to the motor? ( reason: one smokin lean good run per you, boat seems to not want fuel? etc?) how much fuel through the motor so far? Stated: Fresh fuel? my Cmb's stayed "tight" for at least a gallon, and once they " broke in" best motor's I've had........ New motor's are picky animals, hence the possibilities.... the Valvola is a rockin machine wish i had one.... you'll be amazed........ the pipe you have is causing me to wonder if you may be out the the powerband with the added sleeve piece on there, was it cut before you got it? Not my area of knowledge by any means, the general area of knowledge being "8 inches to start on a .21" works for me........ Rodney's possibilty of lengthening the pipe seems on par, in theory, fact being you cant pull any prop but a 215, and that, with the strut elevated outta the water.... you need torque, and have, it looks like taken it away from the motor...... that motor, tuned correctly should pull just about any .21 prop these guys listed to the moon, with the strut set up where it's supposed to be! I only keep a 215 on hand for weeding out situations like yours, if the boat wont pull the smallest prop available, something is wrong, and i need to look elsewhere, motor/fuel, prop dia, strut height, possibly C/G etc....... the variables are almost everywhere.... rule one, and this will make it happen for you, change 1 thing at a time and only 1, slowly and methodically eliminating any of the variables until the boat comes around! super fine tune/trim from there....... dont sweat the nitro content you have, you will save bearings, life of the motor, pickiness on the needle, and other high performance issues causing you unwanted headaches.... a nice, consistent fun running hull is the goal right now...... take it up a notch once you have basic issues resolved............. ie: fine tune hull performance, prop maximization, consistent enjoyable boat.... patience.... it takes time... may drive you insane.... One more.... as understood in your post you still have both the low and high speed needles on your carb? Running the inflight requires that you cut/modify/solder, ( again not my area) the needles on the carb allowing straight through fuel flow from the inflight? CMB has a carb with the third channel installed on it, whether or not this is yours i do not know....... possibly a retrofit/upgrade in order? Keep us posted, if, my buddies hull rocks, i'll be forthcoming with results/info, i'm always up for a challenge to some extent, it's 'sposed to be fun, right? Now, make the wind die down.... Good luck man, you'll tough it out, and dont give up.... mike

 

[tmunn]

Well guys here is an little update while my supper cooks...

I tried the pipe at 8.5, the 440/2 and the KB1L Man that thing will fly now.

It tracks straight no hooking.It is too quick for the pond we were running our vegas's on...

If you launch it Good and hard it will get on the pipe and stay there but will slow down and seem to come off the pipe in turns then

back on pipe in straightaways.

If you do not get a good launch and have to start out form a slow speed it will not come up on pipe for a couple hundred feet or so..

I am getting very close I feel and am only making one small change at a time.

I cought a sponson on a wake or something the last run and she rolled about 3 times.

I had avery disapointing day yesterday.one of the largest problems was the needle setting as we were trying to overcompensate for a condion we did not understand or have any experience with.

I am ordering a M440 today.

My dual tanks seem to work fine.

I have lots of water coming out my water outlet now due to the help from the other thread.

I am understanding when I am lean and rich better now.

I will let you know how i do with the M440 and how my progress comes along.

It wants to bounce or bob around the turns and sometime down the straights.

Is it the strut angle that needs adjusting to overcome this condition ?Am i running too light and need more pressure on the sponsons.They barely hit the water :lol:

Many thanks you guys have really helped with the learning curve.

Terry Munn

 

[RodneyPierce]

Well guys here is an little update while my supper cooks...I tried the pipe at 8.5, the 440/2 and the KB1L Man that thing will fly now.

It tracks straight no hooking.It is too quick for the pond we were running our vegas's on...

If you launch it Good and hard it will get on the pipe and stay there but will slow down and seem to come off the pipe in turns then

back on pipe in straightaways.

If you do not get a good launch and have to start out form a slow speed it will not come up on pipe for a couple hundred feet or so..

I am getting very close I feel and am only making one small change at a time.

I cought a sponson on a wake or something the last run and she rolled about 3 times.

I had avery disapointing day yesterday.one of the largest problems was the needle setting as we were trying to overcompensate for a condion we did not understand or have any experience with.

I am ordering a M440 today.

My dual tanks seem to work fine.

I have lots of water coming out my water outlet now due to the help from the other thread.

I am understanding when I am lean and rich better now.

I will let you know how i do with the M440 and how my progress comes along.

It wants to bounce or bob around the turns and sometime down the straights.

Is it the strut angle that needs adjusting to overcome this condition ?Am i running too light and need more pressure on the sponsons.They barely hit the water :lol:

Many thanks you guys have really helped with the learning curve.

Terry Munn

Glad you got her going man! With this forum, you will eventually find something that works from others help! Also, once you get that boat trimmed out near perfect, it will ride on the very very back of the front sponsons, and on the prop only, nothing else in the water. Also, boggin down in the corners sounds liek a turn fin issue to me. Sounds like its sucking the nose into the water, causing the boat to bog down. Make sure the bend in your fin is straight with the bottom of the boat when looking from the side. (hope that makes sense) and also make sure the fin isnt tucked under the boat too far. I have found that most of the time with the fin straight up and down, and the bend even with the bottom of the boat works best. Also, make sure the fin is straight, and not pulled in or out towards the boat. Do this by flipping the boat over, and puttin a long straight edge on teh front sponson edge, heading down the boat. make sure the fin is straight with the edge, and not pulled in or out in teh front or rear. make sense? I am lost for the correct terminology right now...........

 

[tnrcboatracer]

You can modify your X440 to make it very much like an M440 by cutting off the tongue on the front of the blade. This is what many folks were doing to their X440, so I think OCtura caught on and offered this out of the box.

 

[tmunn]

I do not have any expierince with modifiying props i don't think i could cut the tongue properly at this poin in the game.

but thanks Jon.

I will just order one and sharpen and balance it myself..

Thanks guyd for all the help off to go boating for the evening...

 

[tmunn]

Well guys here is an update...

The boat will now start really well get up on pipe if you give it a good launch if yot you have to play with it and baby it up onto plane and then it will take off.

It seem to go very fast in my opinion and will turn the x440 with no problem and does not hook and goes around the turns nicely.

I think I am almost where i need to be .Now I have to fill in a lot of hole in the epoxy or fiber glass.She is taking on water.

The only problem I am having now that I need help with at this time is that it will not run properly once i empty the first tank.

When it switches to the second tank I can tell from the shore that it has.It will loose power, not get up on pipe and the engine acts like it is not getting enough fuel.

If i bring it in fill the 1st 4 oz tank off she goes nice and fast.Really fast to me.

When the 1st tank empties then she acts up again.I can burn the 2nd tank our if i lust go slow, barly on plane and not on pipe.

It will rev up and down the engine will become erratic.

I have 2-4 oz tanks one on each side of the exhaust .The one that is closest to the needle is located on the right viewed from the rear.The outlet from that one goes to the top of the ferrete remote needle the bottom nipple on the remote needle goes to the filter then the carb.

I fill this one by means of the outlet that goes to the needle .it fill up and then out the pressure line and then across to the other tank .It fills up and then out the pressure line of that tank which is hooked to the pipe.

I hope I have explained this properly.

I have checked the fuel lines and pressure tested the tanks by blowing in them and found no leaks <_<

Everything works great until the first one empties and then it "appears to me that I loose my fuel pressure.

Thanks

Terry

 

[P THOMAS]

Terry, read this post about pipe pressure in scale or sport boats You probally need larger fuel lines between tanks.

http://www.intlwaters.com/index.php?showtopic=20708&hl=

PHIL T

 

[tmunn]

i had some help today and input from gavin p on the site and got to thinking that i better test my system for leaks.

I blocked off the outlet and blew in the pressure line. while holding them under water.

One was leaking around the pressure line from the pressure created by mouth which i have heard is aprox 2 psi could this be my fuel pressure problem. I know any loss in pressure due to leakage in not good....

not sure but it won't leak there again if i can help it :angry:

How much pressure would be created by a .21 tuned pipe, ballpark ?

Thanks for the link Phil I will see what size lines I have and go from there.

Thanks

Terry

 

[tmunn]

Well i was not happy with my fuel tanks or my leaky radio box and heard that this boat would run fine with the tank in the front so i decided to install the tank up front and the radio box in the rear and lengthen the pipe to 8.75".

Now i have no starting issues the engine will haul my x440 and get up on pipe no problen and will drain the tank dry.

The only issie i have is that it seems to hop around the corners somewhat and for some reason .

Any idea what that might be ?

When I let off the throttle from WOT the engine will actually rev up and the boat sppeds up.

When at full throttle the boat is not as fast as it is at 1/2 and at full throttle the engine seems a bit rich or like it is 4 stroking we use to call it on our planes <_<

I chased the needle in and out for a while and then decided to find out some more info before i got it too lean or something.

I am going to post this engine issue in a seperate thread as well.

Thanks Terry