P-spec tunnel

[Bill Britton]

Actually, this is EXACTLY the discussion I was looking for.

I run the tunnel champs annually and would have shown up with the wrong esc.

That seals the deal. It will have to the the UL1.

 

[SeanKewley]

That is a fine choice Bill. Having a choice is important.

Regarding this rule proposal…

Limiting electronic speed controllers (ESCs) in the fast electric P-limited class at a local club level is one thing. Making everyone adhere to it at a national level is an entirely different thing, especially since the majority of the P-limited racers have been running this class for years with a wide variety of ESCs (some that are more affordable than the ESCs that are being required in this new proposal, and some that are more expensive.)

Many of us that have helped grow this class and make it successful are the ones who are going to pay if a rule proposal like the one mentioned passes. Any proposal that requires a large majority of racers in an existing class to replace perfectly good equipment that they paid for with hard earned cash does not help the class or IMPBA.

I have 4 P-limited race boats that I have been racing for the last 3 years. I like to support US manufacturers whenever I can, as such I like to use Castle Creations ESCs because they are good quality, have excellent customer service, and are made in the USA. Having that choice is important.

If I have to buy new ESCs for each boat that I race in the P-limited class that hurts me and many others. I don’t have money to waste these days as I have been tightening my belt. It sounds like this proposal intends to exclude all but 2 manufacturers of marine ESCs in a class that has been in existence for quite some time now. A class that is the largest FE class nationally.

As an IMPBA member, who has been racing this class for 3 years, and who has grown it in my own district, IMPBA Dist 4, how does this help me, my club, or IMPBA? Requiring the majority of us that have been supporting this class to spend yet more money to suit the desires of the minority is not a good notion and an expensive one. Any yes, the clubs that limit ESCs for the P-limited class are in the MINORITY.

The motor is the fuse that limits power output in the P-limited classes, not the ESC. You can only put so many watts through the allowable “spec” motors before they fry.

The FE Nats are being held in FL this year and there is no restriction on the P-limited ESCs.

 

[Bill Britton]

Point taken.

Since this is the only FE boat I will have (for now). It would not be too hard to pop for another esc in the future. (before the FE Nats)

 

[Mike Luszcz]

Technically, I have heard some data log over 90 continuous amps out of a UL-1 motor with a 120amp+ controllers. So having a 60 amp limited controller to set a standard is a bad thing? I don't think so. I don't like supporting aquacraft or proboat any more than the next guy because I do agree they put themselves in a position to profit from the rules, but it does keep some standard. Also, technically, they are USA companies. They get their items made in China, JUST LIKE CASTLE!

The problem out there, is there are some people that can afford to toast a motor after every heat by running it 90+ amps. By allowing this, you are making the playing field further from equal. I just cannot agree with saying the motor is the fuse, as it kinda isn't. I think if people want to run big motors/ esc's, get out there, buy the bigger boats, and demand an open class for FE tunnels. No one is doing that because they like the fairness the current rules provide.

Sorry if this offends anyone, but the truth is the truth. Mike

 

[DPeterson]

It is very unfortunate this ESC subject comes up yet again. Those of us that were part of creating and growing the P-Limited classes did the homework. We did not see the advantage you are speaking of by specing the ESC. We seen way more advantage by allowing ESC choices.

There are many of us that run in NAMBA and IMPBA clubs. There are many of us that travel nationally to race. There are many of us that have been working to try and keep the rules within the two associations consistent so more racers will benefit. Regardless of anyones "opinion" about the value of a spec ESC, if IMPBA passes any rule on spec ESC nationally you will be risking IMPBA membership loss in alot of areas. Sean and I will be bringing this issue up with our local IMPBA club at the next meeting and if need be we will be lobbying for a switch to NAMBA for our electric classes.

NAMBA's spec rules wil be out shortly for vote and the majority has already selected their favorite ESC.

Cheers - Doug

 

[Mike Luszcz]

Alright, I can meet you in the middle. Since price is obviously where a lot of this is stemming from, Why not 60amp and lower controllers be allowed. If there is not advantage to 120amp controllers as the testing crowd agreed upon, but there are plenty of 60 amp controllers on the market, why not that. That way you are limiting amperage, but not branding? I think that is as fair as it gets, and it takes away the opinion factor? Fair enough? Mike

 

[Chilli]

Mike, It's not just about the amps, the non spec controllers have adjustable timing which is an advantage.

Doug, I wrote the D12 Spec rules in my district. My main concern was the growth of FE racing in the district. We had a very sucessful first year in P-Spec Tunnel and Hydro. We had zero equipment failures in the two classes. At last count, we going from 3 FE tunnels in our first year to to 9 in 2011. In our case, it's a little premature for us to worry about national events. If I wanted to attend a NAMBA National, I dont have a problem springing for another controller. I've already have thousands invested in this hobby.

In the end, each club/district/ sanctioning body is going to do whats best for them, So it's al good. I'll be there no matter what the rules are.

 

[SeanKewley]

Mike, It's not just about the amps, the non spec controllers have adjustable timing which is an advantage.

So does the Proboat ESC that is being proposed as a "spec" ESC.

Lets just drop this for now. There is no hurry to pass any new rules in the immediate future. Things have been going great for the P-limited class and I want to keep it that way. Local clubs and those hosting national events have done a great job of growing the class without having a national rule set in place. I think we all need to cool our jets and take a "wait and see" approach.

 

[DPeterson]

Interesting about the timing advantage. I run all YGE adjustbale timing esc's. I can go 7, 15, 22.5 and 30. I have tried them all.

I believe the UL1 motor is built to run at somewhere between 10 and 15 degree timing for optimum efficiency. Correct me if I am wrong. When I time up all I get is more heat. I have not experience more speed. If I understand it, when timing up you may get a little more rpm, less torque and more heat. At least that is what I have been told and it seems to have carried over to the pond. All my esc's are set at 15 degrees.

I am no electrical engineer but my thinking is that the advantage over the stock esc's with better quality esc's is with the faster switching between phases that the quality esc can perform. This then provides faster and cleaner electricity to the motor. IMO better for the motor.

I have run P-Limited over the last 3-4 years with probably 50 different racers. Early on, all of us were popping caps and burning the stock esc's. Seems lately they have been better. We do have many racers still running stock esc's and we see them winning as many races as those of us with the higher quality ones.

Cheers - Doug

 

[Mike Culhane]

OK. Now that we have the attention of the big dogs, what's your opinion about batteries. 30C, 35C...60C? 3000...5500MaH? In P-Spec do you clearly see an advantage in running a 40C over a 30C? Will a 3000MaH pack not get you to the finish line where a 4000 or 5000 will? I'm going to run the UL1 control so lets turn the discussion to batteries! I'll talk Bill into one as well.Lol. Thanks for all the info guys. You are who make I.W. what it is.

Mike

 

[DPeterson]

Sorry about the short passionate discussion on ESC's Mike.

In a spec system it is my opinion that any 35C - 45C cells will work fine. I have not experienced an advantage using 45C over 35C. The spec systems just does not draw the amps to effect this.

In my set ups I use all 5,000 mah. This is due mainly for uniformity. I run various open classes that are limited to 10,000 mah. So I run 2 - 5,000 mah cells in parallel. Thus all my cells are 5,000 mah. Keeping it simple.

My spec tunnel pulls around 3,000 - 3500 mah after a mill lap,1 mile run and a finish lap. A 4,500 mah cell would be sufficent. Larger cells above 5,000 mah will work also but you will also be carrying more weight. Pulling mah out of the cells close to their capacity is what will reduce the life of the cell.

Maybe Sean will weigh in on this. He uses a lipo brand that is very cost efficient. I run the Hyperion G3's A little more pricey than they really have to be.

Doug

 

[Kris Flynn]

soooo anyway, I have also run a UL-1, which was an original version which blew a cap and stopped the boat dead, which got T-Boned at 45MPH KILLED THE BOAT this was all due to a faulty speed control, I think Aquacraft should pay for this!!!

Just kidding!

I also like the Turnigy 120. The UL-1 speedy and Turnigy have both gotton a bit wet and still work fine, Hydra 120 get wet once and will not work, typical :blink:

I know I am over in Aus, but if we do write up some rules for the P-Spec class, I WOULD HOPE that we DO NOT limit the speedy to 2 or 3 variations. I think what gets alot of people interested is that it is a cheap class and is also fast.

To answer some things about packs, I have used Turnigy Packs which are fast, but tend to 'die off' after 2 mins of hard running...I plan on getting some of the XPS packs soon to give them a go...

Kris

 

[raptor347]

I don't race in IMPBA, so I don't really have a stake in how this falls out. But since we're talking about national level rules. Unfortunately, limiting esc's and batteries doesn't make much difference until you figure out how to accurately define and tech the motors.

At a national event, the controlled components in the winning models are inspected (displacement in IC engines for example). At this point there are no inspect-able specifications even being discussed for the motors in the limited class.

Why worry about ESC's and batteries when the motors specs still haven't been defined in a way that can be tested? What's the tech inspector supposed to do, break out the magic 8-ball? "I guess it's a legal motor".

 

[TinoAlmanza]

break out the magic 8-ball? "I guess it's a legal motor".

"Concentrate and ask again" :blink:

In my uneducated opinion there is so much more to be gain by learning props. I'm just glad that hasn't been brought up.

 

[Mark Leyde]

Hey that's it, P spec props!!!! When you are at the drivers meeting for that day. You have to draw straws for props. :unsure: h34r: :blink: <_<

 

[Bill Britton]

break out the magic 8-ball? "I guess it's a legal motor".

"Concentrate and ask again" :blink:

In my uneducated opinion there is so much more to be gain by learning props. I'm just glad that hasn't been brought up.

Props I do know... I AM a nitro tunnelhead!

 

[raptor347]

"Concentrate and ask again" :blink:

In my uneducated opinion there is so much more to be gain by learning props. I'm just glad that hasn't been brought up.

It's funny, I've actually been told defining the motor specs isn't important. That stating "as delivered from the manufacturer" is definition enough. Unfortunately the as delivered technical specs aren't made available for all the motors.

I know a bit about props, certainly not up to the level of many. You're right, that's one of the biggest advantages a racer can have. Assuming the rest of the package is there to go with it, you know: good boat, good driver, good setup etc.

It's been very interesting to see the difference in props between the nitro and FE setups.

 

[TinoAlmanza]

Props I do know... I AM a nitro tunnelhead!

Then you already have a much bigger advantage then ANY speed controller will offer.

 

[D. Newland]

It's funny, I've actually been told defining the motor specs isn't important. That stating "as delivered from the manufacturer" is definition enough. Unfortunately the as delivered technical specs aren't made available for all the motors.

...

Brian-Was this me??

Whether or not, I do recall us discussing developing a proof source/Best Practice guideline to aid CD's in the event of a protest. One that would have motor specifications and that is backed up with a Kv checker. I feel this is a better way to do it than stating specifics in the rulebook. It's more fluid in the event something changes, or a testing method is developed that is better than one currently used, etc.

I still want to do this, if you're game. To be honest, though, I back-back burnered it. Probably because I just haven't seen any issues in person...but I know things go on that I don't know about first hand. Being a hobby, it's too bad we have to be this technical, but it can be beneficial if done correctly.

I'll give it more time as it would be beneficial in the event of a protest.

 

[John Crouch]

The main thing that will give anyone a advantage in this class will be taking the time to get you setup correct and the proper "props" to run the boat with. This is what pretty much happen in the IMPBA thunderboat class. Everyone started complaining of "cheating" when guys started getting there boats past the 60 mph mark. I worked on mine and at best it was capable of around 54mph, but my hull was not one of the best competetive hulls out there either. I think at first it was running around 48-50 and after working on different turn fins and props and playing with the C/G that was where I ended up at. In that class if you are not running a Blazer Lauderback or the zipkits boat it will be hard to win the class. I actually dropped that class in order to run this one and am looking forward to doing so (I still run 6 gas boat classes as it is).

So yes, I will be tweeking, tweeking, and doing more tweeking as the year goes on and try to give everyone a good run for the roses!!!!

Good luck to all the speck FE guys in D12 this year......