Open Discussion: Awarded Points

[Shark]

In all competitive sports, there is a numerical point system that rewards winners and losers. This system of recording creates a dynamic that enhances competition. This competition is the "incentive" for participation.

When participation decreases, the point systems can cause a level of "un-fairness" that is not intentional but inherent. Here in District 19 (Namba) we are using a modified point system that differs from the NAMBA International rule. The original points rule is still being used today in many districts but not ours. When the rule was modified in the early 80's, participation was at its highest levels. Some classes had entries of 20 or more boats in each class that ran on a weekend. Both the Outboard and Heat Race series would have over 100 boats entered respectively at each race.

During the 80's & using the Official Namba Point system, this caused dissent among the participants. Since entries were exceeding 20 boats in a class in some cases, the rules only provided points up to 10th place at the end of the day. In other words, 10 participants recieved points and 10 or more recieved zero for the day.

Boaters complained that they traveled hundreds of miles to compete only to leave with a zero for the day.

As a district, it was proposed and voted on to modify the National rule and apply a "district" rule for recording points. The new system was simple, let the boater keep all heat points for the day as end of year points (4 heats, 4 wins= 1600 points for the day and also for the year) this insured all boaters recieved points on a race weekend. It also enhanced the point chase as it kept all boaters in the hunt for most of the season.

This "new" system worked extremely well thru the 80's and 90's , however; beginging in 2000, the numbers of participants began to diminish. During the 80's and 90's, the difference in points between 1st and 2nd at the end of the year was roughly 800 or less points. This made for good competition and the races maintained attendance from begining to end. There was never an instance where the point leads were so huge that classes were decided by race 5 of a 9 race season.

Today, after a steady decline in participation in District 19; we are down to less than 5 boats in a class in MOST cases. This declination has created another inherent problem. Point spreads.

At years end, classes are decided by as much as 4000 points. These classes were decided back by race 5 and participation dropped as the chance of winning grew dim as the simple mathematics pointed out the lack of rational for continuing.

Winning a class by more than 1000, 2000, 3000, 4000 or 5000 points is rediculous (in my opinion) and this does not lend itself to competitive value. Competition must include incentive and value in order to grow the hobby. Using mathematics, you can assure yourself of victory if you win at least 62% of your heats. The gap in point positions is too extreme for low boater turnout. At 62%, you will have gained such a lead that even if you "no showed" for a race or two, the competition couldnt catch you.

This year is no exception for District 19. The spreads between all classes are rediculous. For me, it was another year of benefitting from the current point system. Today (Sunday Oct 8th) was a race in Hurricaine UTAH. I love that track, its a beautiful place to visit and race. Its also 8 hours away. The cost to compete there would run us $500.00 for the weekend. Comparing this to my almost 3000 point lead, its a no brainer on whether or not to attend.

As you can tell, I did not attend, as did many boaters who compete in the point chase. There were new faces there from Salt Lake City and some folks from AZ who no longer compete in the district series.

Yes, we are all nice people, yes, its fun to see everyone, yes, its a community of people with common ideas that gather together and socialize. We are also on a budget, yet all realize the importance of maximizing our "extra" dollars on our beloved hobby.

How can we begin to once again provide a competitive field of boats and still maximize our dollars?? Can we make a difference in participation by reducing the spreads between positions and eliminate the 4000 point differences at the end of the year?? These are a part of the tough questions we as boaters must ask ourselves in order to change the direction of our hobby.

As an example, here is the current system of recording awarded points in District 19:

1) 400

2) 300 or 75% of first place

3) 225 or 56%

4) 169 or 42%

5) 127 or 31%

6) 96 or 24%

DNF 25

DQ 0

My alternative point system:

1) 100

2) 90 or 90% of first place

3) 80 or 80%

4) 70 or 70%

5) 60 or 60%

6) 50 or 50%

Bonus points- 10 points for perfect day (4 wins =400 points)

......................10 points for fast time of day in class.

DNF 20

DQ 0

This all being said, should we as a competitive group consider a uniformed change of points systems to attempt to jump start the competitive value of the racing around the country??

Look at the possibilities in the following scenarios:

Old points system using a three boater scenario: (note: boater 1 is point leader)

Boater 1-1st heat= 400, 2nd heat =400, 3rd heat=400, 4th heat=25 total=1225

Boater 2-1st heat= 300, 2nd heat =300, 3rd heat=300, 4th heat=300 total=1200

Boater 3-1st heat= 225, 2nd heat =225, 3rd heat=225, 4th heat=400 total=1075

Boater 1 wins the day only completing 75% of heats. Boater 2 is second and loses 25 towards the year end points and completed 100% of heats. Boater 3 is third and loses 150 points towards year end points and completed 100% of heats. "THIS ILLUSTRATES A CLEAR ADVANTAGE TO BOATER 1."

New point system using same identical scenario:

Boater 1-1st heat= 100, 2nd heat =100, 3rd heat=100, 4th heat=20 total=320

Boater 2-1st heat= 90, 2nd heat = 90, 3rd heat= 90, 4th heat=90 total=360

Boater 3-1st heat= 80, 2nd heat = 80, 3rd heat= 80, 4th heat=100 total=340

Boater 2 wins the day and gains 40 points towards year end points and completed 100% of heats. Boater 3 is second and gains 20 points towards year end points. Boater 1 is third and gives up points in the points chase by only finishing 75% of heats. "THIS ILLUSTRATES A CHANGE IN ADVANTAGE TO CONSISTENCY OVER SPEED".

What do you think? Does this make sense? Can this change make a difference in attendance yearlong?

Lets hear what "your" district is doing for points and would this new system of awarded points increase or decrease attendance in your areas?

Remember, this is a topic about POINTS and POINTS only, other factors that contribute to declines are not a factor in this discussion. Lets keep the focus on competitive value and incentive to remain competitive from the first race to the last.

I am also curious to hear any other suggestions on this subject if anyone has one.

Peace.

Rey G.

 

[Tony Jacuzzi]

IMPBA District-2 hi points championships are based on actual points scored at the races for the first three heats. Each series (mono-scale sport40 etc.) has a total number of allowable races for the series (determined by the series director). For example we have a 16 race schedule total but there may only be 12 races offering the nitro mono classes. We would only count 50% of the races towards the championship so your best 6 totals apply. If you race more than 6 you toss out the lowest score etc., all of the totals and each series rules are tracked on the district website. www.impba-d2.com Tony J

 

[bzubee]

Under the present points system it takes into consideration of a balance of performance and reliability under the system you mention the balance is titled twards reliabiltiy over performance. In your example boat #1 clearly was a better performing boat towin 3 1st place finnishes out of 4 while the others just finnished all of their heats. I think the present points system is working pretty well, and shows a good balance between the performance and reliability of the boats and drivers/wrenchers.

Just myt opinion. Good thoughts on your part.

 

[Shark]

BzBee,

I am curious to see the differences between 1st and 2nd (year end) in yours and the other districts. Are your classes separated by big margins, or is your racing in your district pretty competitive at the last race of the season??

Here, our differences are huge and that is mainly attributed to the participation levels going under 5 boats in a class.

I will agree with you, the points system is working if you can have at least 10 boaters in a class all year long, but when you get to 5 boats, then it really becomes a two horse race until about race 5.

For us, each time we reduce our schedule down (now at 8 races vs 10) the ability to have good points chase diminishes as the spreads become larger.

Ratios play a big part in what im saying i guess, the more boats entered, the better the dynamic of competition. The fewer boats, the lesser chance of a competitive season.

For me, I am suggesting that if a class is going to reduce to less than 6 boats in a class all year, then a "tightening" of the points would keep the competition excited and motivated to make all races.

The "cream" will always rise to the top no matter what system is used, that is the nature of the beast.

A championship in a 5 boat class should be decided at the last race and not midway thru a season. I guess that is what I am trying to communicate.

Thanks for your reply!!

Rey G.

 

[Jay Stone]

What's wrong with taking a race average and making a person run at least 2/3 or 3/4 of all races.

So for instance in a 10 race season, a person with 12,000 points that attended each race would have a 1200 point score and a person that ran 7 races and had 8600 points would have a 1229 point per race average...

 

[Rokieboater]

Shark,

I would love to revamp the point system and it does make sense to reward for finishing as well as performance. In the current system the #1 racer doesn't even have to try and finish his last heat and He already has first for the day. As we know every district has a couple of guys that are always faster in a certain class and that can be obtained thru knowledge or spending. Your "NEW" point system allows the racer on a lessor budget and not knowing all the "IN" people to compete in a year end championship. No disrespect to big spenders or knowing the right people, so don't jump on that and run with it.( I happen to be both) It also forces people to "race" a little more and stratigize on a finish as opposed to just going for it. There is nothing worse than a class being won midway thru a season, this only hurts racer participation not only for the rest of a season but for the following year as well.

 

If a point system can keep al participants closer in points and easier to catch a points leader than lets go for it. One thing that we have done in our district is offer a double points race at the last race of the year in order to help people in 2nd or 3rd place have a chance to catch/overcome the leader. Most classes are still up for grabs with a possible 3200 points at the last race. This also brings participation up for the last race.

 

Write a proposal and lets try it out.

 

[Don Ferrette]

There are some interesting points here for sure, but do you think it's fair to a person who may be on their "A game" all season to have their results watered down? I've lived on both sides of the equation & I can tell you first hand that if I find myself on the losing end of things I will work my tail off to put myself back in the winners circle. The notion that "money" or "connections" is what puts you on the podium is a bit far from reality in my opinion. Year in & year out I see them come & go, the guys who think that a fistfull of dollars will get them first place but nothing winds up being further from the truth. What puts someone on top is lots of practice, preparation, attention to detail, smart driving & even a little luck from time to time. Put yourself on the other side for a moment, say you've spend the last couple seasons getting it all together, you're driving great, your boat's finally where it needs to be and all the pieces have finally fallen into place for you. Then at say the last race of the season someone KO's your boat early on, even in perhaps open water & you watch your whole season go down the tubes because of a watered down points system. I personally think where the mistake is being made is counting total points from each race towards a grand total. We don't do it that way in D12, a first overall gets you 400 for that event, not say 1600 for a 4 round race if you had a perfect score. And as for someone finishing say 11th not getting any points? Well an 11th place finish means you need to get better, not panhandle for a few measly points. Granted we only run 5 points races a year but more often than not many classes are still up for grabs going into the last race of the year. This year I've been lucky & I will have a good year, not always the case mind you. We make all 5 races count so if one is serious about competing for a district title that person needs to attend ALL 5 races. Perhaps that's has something to do with why we've found ourselves back to the 150-170 boat turnouts at the races since we've brought back the D12 Championship Series. Not trying to rain down on anyone's party, just looking at it from the other angle.

 

[Shark]

Don & Rookie,

Both have presented good arguments. I believe there is truth to both sides.

First, to rookie boater, yes I know exactly what you are trying to say. There is a percentage of investment that contributes to championships and that advantage (while slight) is enough to overcome the balance of boaters ( I know, Im that guy!) I wil spend whatever it takes to get the best equiptment and the best parts on the market. This combined with 38 of racing is a BIG advantage. The learning curve for the new boater is long and expensive, and this match up-head to head will favor the bigger spender.

However, Don points out that experience and preparation does need to be rewarded, and to "handicap" the well prepared boater may be somewhat unfair. The time and investment would be diminished from this perspective.

I hear both sides.

What the main concern is, how to motivate and grow the hobby. Yes, the well prepared boater should be rewarded for his efforts, but if this is causing the remainder of boaters to reduce or eliminate boating from thier recreational calendars, then maybe a slight "handicap" may be in order??

I agree with DON when he sez keeping round by round points towards year end is foolish given the number of boaters attending, and we here in 19 should review this application.

I appreciate your comments fellas!!

Rey G.

 

[Shark]

Shark,

I would love to revamp the point system and it does make sense to reward for finishing as well as performance. In the current system the #1 racer doesn't even have to try and finish his last heat and He already has first for the day. As we know every district has a couple of guys that are always faster in a certain class and that can be obtained thru knowledge or spending. Your "NEW" point system allows the racer on a lessor budget and not knowing all the "IN" people to compete in a year end championship. No disrespect to big spenders or knowing the right people, so don't jump on that and run with it.( I happen to be both) It also forces people to "race" a little more and stratigize on a finish as opposed to just going for it. There is nothing worse than a class being won midway thru a season, this only hurts racer participation not only for the rest of a season but for the following year as well.

 

If a point system can keep al participants closer in points and easier to catch a points leader than lets go for it. One thing that we have done in our district is offer a double points race at the last race of the year in order to help people in 2nd or 3rd place have a chance to catch/overcome the leader. Most classes are still up for grabs with a possible 3200 points at the last race. This also brings participation up for the last race.

 

Write a proposal and lets try it out.

 

 

Rookie,

 

You made a good point that I forgot to address. You said "In the current system the #1 racer doesn't even have to try and finish his last heat and He already has first for the day."" (EQ)

 

This is exactly the point. In a heat or class where there are less than 6 boats , the boater who wins the first three heats only needs to DNF in round 4 to win for the day, there is no incentive to race the other boats.

 

This is the case here in my district. Indeed, the fast boats win and then cruise the last heat as it MEANS nothing! Now, you extend that over a period of 5 races and the season is over.

 

In the new point system I propose, there is an incentive to continue to be competitive in the last round whether your the point leader or not. There are 2 bonus points catagories that will give an advantage to the boater who races all 4 heats equally.

 

First, there is a 10 point bonus for setting the fast time of the day in a class. This 10 points may come in handy at the end of the year. The faster boater or "well prepared" boater would probably benefit the most from this bonus and this would satisfy the effort and energy of the "well prepared" boater. It also would benefit the other boaters who may not win the heats but have a fast boat that eventually wins 1 or two and sets fast time. This 10 points could make a difference, but it also gives all boaters something to shoot for.

 

Second, for the well prepared boater, 10 bonus points for any boater who wins all 4 heats in a day. The total points for 4 heat wins is 100, plus 10 for the perfect day = 110, plus setting fast time 10 points =120.

 

This is what I call "incentive" as a part of change. Don F. said that handicapping a well prepared boater may be unfair, however, I think the bonus system gives the well prepared boater the reward for the efforts that would be truly deserved.

 

This bonus system also makes all boaters race ALL HEATS vs. 3 wins and cruise mode.

 

Nobody likes that, except the guy cruising.

 

[piper_chuck]

Rookie,

You made a good point that I forgot to address. You said "In the current system the #1 racer doesn't even have to try and finish his last heat and He already has first for the day."" (EQ)

This is exactly the point. In a heat or class where there are less than 6 boats , the boater who wins the first three heats only needs to DNF in round 4 to win for the day, there is no incentive to race the other boats.

Perhaps I'm missing something, but if a person wins 3 out of 4 heats, there is a strong argument that they are the best boater on that day. However, I happen to know someone who was second in 3 heats and first in 1 heat and still won because the person who won the other 3 heats got a DNS. Even a DNF wouldn't have saved him.

The risk of making the points too close for a district series is that a small amount of bad luck for a person who is clearly the best boater could result in rewarding someone who has been clearly less dominant. Which is better, to reward the person who has won more races, or someone who has consistantly finished?

This is the case here in my district. Indeed, the fast boats win and then cruise the last heat as it MEANS nothing! Now, you extend that over a period of 5 races and the season is over.

I don't know about others, but I actually race harder when I know I've got a class wrapped up. Those who know me understand that I place a high priority on finishing. If I've got a position locked up, I'll go balls to the walls. Just ask the people who watched my last heat of open hydro at last weekend's Charleston race. I had the class clinched, but I took out two bouys seeing how tight I could hold the turns. I didn't need to drive that hard, but it sure was fun!

 

[Don Ferrette]

I don't know about others, but I actually race harder when I know I've got a class wrapped up. Those who know me understand that I place a high priority on finishing. If I've got a position locked up, I'll go balls to the walls. Just ask the people who watched my last heat of open hydro at last weekend's Charleston race. I had the class clinched, but I took out two bouys seeing how tight I could hold the turns. I didn't need to drive that hard, but it sure was fun!

Glad to see I'm not the only one who thinks that way, to finish first you must first finish (but all firsts do help) . A few years back I had F hydro wrapped up at a race & decided to see just how hard I could push the twin in the last heat & really leaned 'er down. Was wide open haulin' azz and nailed the entrance buoy to #4 on the last lap, went thru it like it wasn't there. Man that was the best explosion of foam I've seen in years & everyone got a kick out of it ...... except for the 2 guys in the retrieve boat who spent 10 minutes chasing down all those little pieces of what used to be a buoy.

Perhaps I'm missing something, but if a person wins 3 out of 4 heats, there is a strong argument that they are the best boater on that day. However, I happen to know someone who was second in 3 heats and first in 1 heat and still won because the person who won the other 3 heats got a DNS. Even a DNF wouldn't have saved him.

Seen that happen many times & had it happen to me as well, 3 firsts & still go home with a second place.

 

[Wesleys Custom RC]

I agree, the points should stay the way they are. The only change I would make is that you should be able to throw out one race. Say it is a 5 race series. You only count 4 of the 5. You always have 1 bad weekend or you HAVE to go to that wedding, funeral, graduation etc. etc. Yes, you decrease participation for that individule for 1 weekend but you increase it for the others who still have a chance at the championship even though they had to go to that pesky wedding.

 

[Shark]

Piper Chuck,

you wrote: ""Perhaps I'm missing something, but if a person wins 3 out of 4 heats, there is a strong argument that they are the best boater on that day. However, I happen to know someone who was second in 3 heats and first in 1 heat and still won because the person who won the other 3 heats got a DNS. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) Even a DNF wouldn't have saved him.""

then asked:

""The risk of making the points too close for a district series is that a small amount of bad luck for a person who is clearly the best boater could result in rewarding someone who has been clearly less dominant. Which is better, to reward the person who has won more races, or someone who has consistantly finished?""

Good point and good question. What if we look at it a bit differently. First, not all boats that get 3 wins are necessarily the best boats, in fact, some (by default) get the three wins because the faster boat drove too hard and took himself out of the race or cut a bouy, losing the lead and taking a second. However, this isnt what Im talking about.

What I am talking about is the boater who is always 2,3,4 constantly and finishes all his/her heats. The faster boaters will always be at the races, as You, Don, and I do. These 2,3,4,5th place boaters are the first boaters to leave the hobby. By demographic, if you consider all that have left this hobby over the past few years, you will find that the majority of them have NEVER won a championship or even had the chance to win one.

Yes, we all spend alot to perform at our best, and thats what makes us champions, it just that over the years I have a closet full of championship jackets, and three walls full of trophys but what i dont have is a full field of competitors. I feel (in my opinion) that guys like myself are driving away those who place 2,3,4,5th each time we win time and time again and only having to win 62% of the actual heats available.

By statistic, this is unfair to the new, or low budget racer. If we consider "our" budgets, and then ask ourselves if handicapping "us" a bit and making a competitive field of boaters for the entire season a reality because of it, isnt that the bigger question??

I believe, that consistancy should be rewarded and not speed. Yes, I would rather have to race as hard as I could at the last race for a championship then win it at race 5 and cruise race 6 and skip race 7 & 8.

The "juice" is in the race, not 62% completion. If we take the time to look at the impact we have on the new boater or the low budget boater, we will acknowledge that the decline is "our" faults. "Keeping up with the joneses" is a big red flag for most new boaters and we need to level the playing field until the they catch up and accept the racing bug as we all have.

Thanks for your question.

Rey G.

 

[Jay Stone]

The problem is people are afraid of change. Trying to present a change in way things are done is nearly impossible when it comes to something like this.

The best way to get something like this in order is to run the points system in conjunction with the district points next season and see how it goes. Maybe trying to come up with some awards would help considerably.. At the end of the year if the racers liked the new points system, they'd be more inclined to change...

 

[piper_chuck]

I agree, the points should stay the way they are. The only change I would make is that you should be able to throw out one race. Say it is a 5 race series. You only count 4 of the 5. You always have 1 bad weekend or you HAVE to go to that wedding, funeral, graduation etc. etc. Yes, you decrease participation for that individule for 1 weekend but you increase it for the others who still have a chance at the championship even though they had to go to that pesky wedding.

I think every case is different. For example, in our club series we do drop one race.

 

[Chris Wood]

What about awarding points for mains. say if you had three heats of what ever you get c, b, a mains.

more points for winning the mains and transfer to the next heat.. not sure if it would work or not..

or what about let say you have 10 races a year in your district.. 7 races qualify you for the ( end of the year chase for the district title, kinda like nascar )

top 4 from each class at the last three races run together.. that determines the winner.. and final positions for that class, for that district.

not sure if it would work or not.

chris