OK, I'll start the 1/16th Scale Thread...

[Darin Jordan]

Let's separate the 1/16th Scale topic...

Here's my opinion... LEAVE IT ALONE! It's fine the way it is! If you guys want true scale classes, by all means do the 1/10th or 1/8th thing... I'm all on board with the 1/10th Scale idea...

HOWEVER,

I see no reason to start dragging the other classes down this road... All it will do is drive away those who do this to race and have fun and who would rather spend their time making the things go, as opposed to making them look "correct"...

Especially when these little 22-24" rockets spend so much of their time on their lids... I agree with whoever mentioned in the other thread that the pallet is a little small to get "Scale" nit-pickey about these things...

This is just my opinion, of course, but from what I've whitnessed and read, I think people like the idea of being able to put together a Dark Horse, DPI AD, Finlay Atlas, etc., paint it to look like the real boat of preference, and then go race the thing... I don't think any of those hulls would qualify as "Scale"... You start making these boats have true scale requirements, and the list of available hulls drops considerably, as does the participation levels...

Scale is another level of racing, above and beyond getting the boat competitive in the first place... and, it's a different "type" of competition... Please, let's not get too carried away with this and take away from the real reason why most of us are here... To RACE on the water...

Thanks for listening...

 

[Garry Finlay]

My philosophy on sport vs. scale vs. sport-scale is (specially in 16th):

I make a boat as scale as I can. It can be entered in any class that the dimensions, cell count and motor type allow. They wouldn’t kick you out of sport hydro for being too scale.

A point was made on the other thread – the one that said to go somewhere else – a small boat will not support scale detail like a large boat, it would be too heavy – or something like that. Bull. Scale detail is simple in small scale. You can “impress with less” as they say in scale RC plane competition.

As for the nit-picking that goes on as the rules are being dialed in: Build on the conservative side. Put the strut under the hull. Make a detailed driver. Put realistic exhaust stacks through the cowl, not stuck on the cowl. Etc. etc.. You will have a boat that will meet any set of rules. And, if you are careful, you will have a hull that is just as competitive as the one that has cheated the drive-dog rule.

“Scale” does not have to be slower than “sport”. You have to be careful and build light, but most people do that anyway.

Garry

 

[brooks93]

Darin you misunderstood what was being said.. They don't want to change the sport class's to scale but, make new class's for the same size that are scale..

at least thats how it was explained to me on the phone.

 

[forresterace]

Oh, goody - what would that be, two, three or four more new classes? :blink:

Next thing you know - the 2006 Nats would have to start a week after the 2005 Nats finished

 

[Darin Jordan]

Darin you misunderstood what was being said.. They don't want to change the sport class's to scale but, make new class's for the same size that are scale..
at least thats how it was explained to me on the phone.

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Why can't they just add a concourse competition to the existing class, and let those that want to be "Scale", be "Scale"... Alter the rules however necessary to make sure that all Scale boats are "Sport" boats, too...

We don't really need more classes for everyone to get a taste of what they are after... You just have to make the classes you have flexible enough to accomodate them... 1/16th "Sport Scale", or O-Sport Hydro, or whatever the 8-Cell 20" minimum hull length class is called these days, can already accomodate MOST of the scale configurations out there... Unless I'm missing something...

I don't think making it harder to build a competition boat is the answer for everyone... Participation WILL go down if everyone is required to have a correct "Scale" boat for these classes... Not everyone who races in these classes is interested, or willing, or capable, of building such a boat...

 

[brooks93]

Darin your getting on a crusade for no reason.. You had maybe 2 people that said that they wanted it to be scale..

there is a concourse and the scale boats usally win.. see where I am going..

Your making sound like all of FE is screaming for Scale..

beside it won't happen if someone doesn't do the writing.. and I am not doing it.

 

[Darin Jordan]

Darin your getting on a crusade for no reason..

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Kelly... sorry if there is that tone in my post... I'm just discussing... Sorry if it sounds like I'm on a "crusade"... Just trying to be heard...

 

[brooks93]

its no problem with me.. Just want to make it clear that it not like the 19T thing..

I think it was 2 people that said they wanted me to include all the class sizes in with the 1/8th scale thing.. I don't agree so I am not doing it..

so the only way it would get done is if someone else writes it.. don't hold your breath for that one either.. You only have a handful of guys that are willing enough to attempt it and get burned at the stack.. LOL.. been there done that got the rule passed.. IE offshore rules

Like I said just don't want to see you get all wound up for something that isn't happening.. When or if it does I have got your back and we can both scream. LOL

 

[Al Waters]

I have a question as I couldnt help but come over here.

I know what 1/8 scale is. It is dimensionally 1/8th the size of a real boat that once ran. There is a range of dimensions for the length, width, depth, afterplane and picklefork.

I hear 1/10 and 1/16 scale. Scale to what? There are no dimensions that these relate to other than a minumum lenght and that is it that I am aware of.

So if you take a sport boat in any of the FE classes and paint it to look like the Miss Budweiser or the Miss International Waters (I made that up)......dont you still have a sport boat?

Help me out :huh:

Al Waters

NAMBA Vice President

NAMBA Scale Unlimited Chairman

 

[AlanN]

Oh, goody - what would that be, two, three or four more new classes?  :blink:
Next thing you know - the 2006 Nats would have to start a week after the 2005 Nats finished 

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Congradulations Mr D. Forrestor!!!!

You have just won being the CD and Race official for the next FE nats!

Glad to have you aboard! :lol:

 

[T.S.Davis]

old wording

Al, brace yourself. There is no 1/16th Scale Hydro class in NAMBA. There is no 1/16th Sport Scale Hydro class in NAMBA either.

I had to learn it like third hand so someone jump in and smack me if I'm out of line.

1/16 scale is what we now refer to as "O Sport Scale Hydro". The only dimensional requirements are 20" to 26" in length. This happens to be the only FE "Sport Scale Hydro" class that is subject to the nitro "SPORT HYDRO" section where the afterplane, picklefork, and decorations are defined. The "SCALE" portion of the class name means absolutely nothing that I'm aware of.

The nitro sport classes don't include the term "scale" so I'm not sure how it ended up in the FE sections. I mean there is no Sport Scale 60 Hydro.

There IS a ton of quiet debate about just how specific sport classes should be but currently only the O Sport class works at all (IMO). P Sport Scale, Q & S Sport Scale, and Limited Sport Hydro have only a length requirements.

Again, why or how the "Scale" got in there is a mystery. At least to me it is. I'm just a youngster though.

 

[Al Waters]

Terry,

this is something that you and I have talked a lot about. Maybe with the forthcoming of 1/8th scale, it will help clarify the classificaion of the word scale and sport in the "letter" classes.

Al Waters

NAMBA Vice President

NAMBA Scale Unlimited Chairman

 

[Paul Pachmayer]

Hey Guys,

You know I've always reffered to them as O-Sport, P-Sport and Q/S-Sport. Seems easy enough to me. As far as scale goes in those classes I have built a few that where "scale looking" but where they too scale??

Sport hydros are what they are, call them as such. The greatest loss calling them scale would be all the creative hull designing. Bye bye new boats.

Paul.

 

[crowebar]

Hey Guys,
You know I've always reffered to them as O-Sport, P-Sport and Q/S-Sport.  Seems easy enough to me.  As far as scale goes in those classes I have built a few that where "scale looking" but where they too scale?? 

Sport hydros are what they are, call them as such.  The greatest loss calling them scale would be all the creative hull designing.  Bye bye new boats. 

Paul.

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Al,

When I started out in Model Boat racing back in the mid 80's the only electric model boat club in Washington was called Electric Thunder. They were all 1/16th scale Unlimited Hydros. For years I ran the 82 Atlas. We had a Hull roster and everything, I think our Hull fee was 10 bucks though. There were a few variations in the "scale" rules but not many. We actually allowed strut mounted to the back of the boats. It was a little cramped trying to mount them inside.

One thing that was not mandated was the motor. At that time everyone used Astro Flight 05 6 turn motors. Only one problem, I joined the club and started running car motors and had my com lathe going and was lapping the field. The next thing you know the diehards quit the club and started their own new club consisting of 10th scale boats with very tight restrictions including a mandated motor.

While I still make all of my sport boats as scale as possible (My 1966 bardahl has a full cowl, oops), I still enjoy the performance aspect and could care less if the guy next too me wanted to paint his boat as the whatever special, as long as it adhered to "sport". I won't tell him how to paint his if he doesn't tell me how to paint mine.

I love the fact that 1/8 scale will be as it has been discussed, I wish I still had my 82 Atlas! I'd pull my 67 K&B and drop in a big BL motor and go play! Had I of known the future......

Lets add 1/8 and keep sport, sport! You can still make the O Sports scale if you want. I've won 5 of the last 6 nats with my "scale O Sport boat" competing against the "regular sport boats". Anyone that thinks a "scale" boat can't compete can come talk to me!

Dick

 

[Kevin Whitehead]

Lets add 1/8 and keep sport, sport! You can still make the O Sports scale if you want. I've won 5 of the last 6 nats with my "scale O Sport boat" competing against the "regular sport boats". Anyone that thinks a "scale" boat can't compete can come talk to me!

Dick

Which boat is that O Sport Hydro, Dick? It sounds like (although I could be misreading) you are claiming either a Maus shovel, a Bandit shovel, an Aussie shovel, or a Dark horse shovel is a scale boat. That would be a stretch. A person can decorate them as scale as they like but, dimentionally they are way off scale.

Yes, keep Sport just that. If a person wants real Scale there is 1/8th and there is the option of proposing a new class.

KW

 

[crowebar]

Which boat is that O Sport Hydro, Dick? It sounds like (although I could be misreading) you are claiming either a Maus shovel, a Bandit shovel, an Aussie shovel, or a Dark horse shovel is a scale boat. That would be a stretch. A person can decorate them as scale as they like but, dimentionally they are way off scale.

Yes, keep Sport just that. If a person wants real Scale there is 1/8th and there is the option of proposing a new class.

KW

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Hi Kevin,

The earlier boats were all scratch Built. I ran the 1982 Atlas for about 7 years before I took a step into the dark side with the "Boat". I know, I know. Lets just say Jim Auguston, who ran the boat in both 1/8th and 1/16th scale, was (and still is) my hero. When He got out I thought I'd try and carry his torch. Shortly thereafter I began working with Jerry Dunalp and Bob Welch at DPI racing and R&D. The DPI was a large departure from Scale, but by that time the club loosend up their grips on Scale with the departure of the hardcores to the new 10th scale club. After that I started running Maus and the 1964 Bardahl which was scale to the extream, modified cowl, hand made dummy engine, Scale driver, graphics and all. It was one of the boats that fit very closely scale dimentions for that hull, the biggest fudge was the back of the cowling didn't extend far enough to the transom, but a 10% +/- rule may have been argued, should I get out my ruler?. My last boat has been the cabover which again falls within the scale definition of the 1966 Bardahl. I even have a dummy engine and was going to modify the cowl for it. Guess what, the engine is still on my desk and it might just have a pemanent home there!

My point is I've run boats that have gone above and beyond "sport" into the world of scale without sacrificing performance. I don't believe you have to make a sport boat to be competitive. Enjoy the class for what it is, an opportunity to make a scale boat or a sport boat with your own name on it. I've crewed on the Pico American Dream for years and love the real boats. It's why I got into R/C. My first boat was the 1/8th scale 1982 Atlas. Not the best beginners class, but back then it was all about the boat for me, not the racing. I loved the boat, although I lived in the chase boat most of the time! Fortunatly I found the electric club with the 1/16ths which was more my nitch.

I suppose in the end it could come down to our definitions of scale, If you or others want to tighten it up I'll go with you, but do we really need to?

I'm not too sure where your going with your question to me Kevin. I'm one of the card carrying Keven Whitehead fan club members. Believe it or not you are one of the reasons I ventured over here. You say the stuff I want to, but don't always have the guts to! If you want to bust me up, go for it. I promise I'll still like you!!!!

Dick

 

[Kevin Whitehead]

Dick,

No bust up going on.

I'm just trying point out some distinct division instead of the grey area being painted between scale and sport.

'65 Bardahl - Tunnel width 8' 10" (82") @ 1/16th that is 5.125" add 10% it's 5.6375".

Is the tunnel on any of those boats under 6"? I'd be mighty suprised if any are. I think they need that wider (beyond scale wider) tunnel get that performance that we all know and love :wub:

I am all for going tighter (tighter meaning following nitro SU rules) in scale requirements but, only in 1/8th.

All the other Sport classes: Don't mess with 'em. Don't care who paints their boat which way. Just don't bring a canard or an outrigger ( For you West Coast guys).

And for adding more classes, meaning Scale 1/16th, 1/12th, 1/10th, or whatever: I am just not seeing an outpouring of support for them. And, I've believed for some time the FE menu is too large.

I wonder how many nitro/gas guys have read the threads on O Sport Scale Hydro, 1/16th Sport Scale Hydro, O Sport Hydro, etc, etc, and have had to take some Dramamine to stop the room from spinning?

KW

 

[crowebar]

Dick,
No bust up going on.

I'm just trying point out some distinct division instead of the grey area being painted between scale and sport.

'65 Bardahl - Tunnel width 8' 10" (82") @ 1/16th that is 5.125" add 10% it's 5.6375".

Is the tunnel on any of those boats under 6"? I'd be mighty suprised if any are. I think they need that wider (beyond scale wider) tunnel get that performance that we all know and love :wub:

I am all for going tighter (tighter meaning following nitro SU rules) in scale requirements but, only in 1/8th.

All the other Sport classes: Don't mess with 'em. Don't care who paints their boat which way. Just don't bring a canard or an outrigger ( For you West Coast guys).

And for adding more classes, meaning Scale 1/16th, 1/12th, 1/10th, or whatever: I am just not seeing an outpouring of support for them. And, I've believed for some time the FE menu is too large.

I wonder how many nitro/gas guys have read the threads on O Sport Scale Hydro, 1/16th Sport Scale Hydro, O Sport Hydro, etc, etc, and have had to take some Dramamine to stop the room from spinning?  

KW

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Cool Kevin,

We are on the same page.

In all honesty I never measured the maus for scale. By the time I was using that boat as my 1/16th (or whatever) our club loosened up the rules dramatically (again, with the departure of the hardcores that went to 10th). I had talked with Sam Maus who told me the Bardahl was very close to the Maus boat which was cool for me. It's all I needed at the time. If the specs you mention are correct then a scale boat would get it's clocked clean. The DPI would actually be more to scale as it is significantly narrower then the Maus. We even built the real Pico wider in 1996 to deal with the fuel restrictions which might make the DPI boat very close as it has a much narrower tunnel then the Maus, well, except for the cowl!

In any event, In our club we still required that the 1/16th scale boats be painted the same and continue to hold a loose hull roster. This is still one of our biggest classes along with P Sport which we also hold as a scale class (as described above). Bottom line, in our club, we all like making scale boats, or as close as possible and call it good. One guy in our club (Larry Kirby) made a beautiful Cabover Bud roundnose. Sure no such boat exists, but it looks like it belongs when it's on the water with the rest of the boats which is what I like!

As for 1/8th scale, I'm with you again! I'm going to build one of these beasts and look forward to the scale aspect.

Dick

 

[Kevin Whitehead]

Hey Dick,

I too am 100% for painting up Sport boats like Unlimiteds, or ULs, or some fictional Sponsor.

My favorite is taking a hull such as a Karelson pickelfork from the early 80's (i.e. Oberto or Speedy Printing) and painting it up in a Bardahl checkerboard paint scheme. Like a concept boat. What if Bardahl had stayed in the game? As a bonus sometimes you can have a real scale purist visit a race and just get tweaked by the boat. "That boat never existed!" :angry: Nothing like getting some good laughs at a race (that why I pit near the CAFE jesters).

On the other hand, I am 100% against requiring anyone to paint up their Sport boats like Unlimiteds, ULs, etc.

It's like seatbelts in cars. Wouldn't dream of driving without one. Still don't think the government has any business ticketing people for not complying. Same with motorcycle helmets.

That's why I think that Sport class rule need only narrowly focus on keeping riggers and canards out. The mono class participants got it right at the start and kept it right.

KW

Oh yes. The Bardahl measurements were from the NAMBA Scale Unlimited Hull Roster.

 

[Al Waters]

Bill and Kevin.................

I hope that others are listening to you guys.

Sport is sport whether it be the Miss Bardahl or Miss B. Haven ........... and leave looking like the real thing to the 1/8th scale.

Bill..check with Don Mock. He may have an Atlas or two lying around.

See ya

Al Waters

NAMBA Vice President

NAMBA Scale Unlimited Chairman