OK, I have an FE question.

[hugh hargett]

yepper, 3.75 deg timing is good.

the 7deg I mentiond Hugh was for the WYE (Y) series motors. (put it in the wrong portion of the sentence.)

carl seven may be the ticket later (hotter setting) once trimmed and propped properly. Some report more power advancing the timing. A man whose motor knowledge I respect says it only helps with cogging or smoothness of the motor. If the leos have a coreless stator they shouldnt cog much anyway.

It might be a mistake to let AB in the limited game :unsure:

 

[Ronald van Essen]

Gabe,

on a site of a German shop who sells Seaking controllers it says you must not use BEC when using more then 4s...

Ronald

 

[HOTWATER]

Gabe,

on a site of a German shop who sells Seaking controllers it says you must not use BEC when using more then 4s...

Ronald

Correct...

 

[hugh hargett]

Not that yall care but some of the cheapos have 5 amp bec's that you can use all the way up to 7 s. Like the skywing 200 a 30 dollar esc . The t-180 is proven Im just sayin.

 

[carlnoki]

yepper. but with WYE wound motors you rally have to be very careful at timing advancments on them.

SOME esc's don't like alot of timing advance on WYE wound motors. (ask me how I know. LOL)

3 to 5 deg. is a pretty good setting on Deltas.

 

[jayt]

SOME esc's don't like alot of timing advance on WYE wound motors. 3 to 5 deg. is a pretty good setting on wye's.

I find that an odd comment. Most motor makers say that Y winds handle more advance just fine - it is the D motors which do not like more than 3-5 degrees. Most like the mid timing advance on a standard controller, usually 11*-15*. Regardless of what some "motor expert" says, the more amps you pull the more advance you need. It absolutely doesn't effect only motor smoothness on inrunners, but it does effect motor efficiency and heat. As an experiment I advanced the timing on my 6S SAW cat from 15* to 20* (1515/1Y Castle) and gained ~4 mph through the traps (I hate using GPS speeds if I don't have to). I gained just 5*F on the ESC.

 

[hugh hargett]

Carl, did ben ever get those 45 mm tenshock motors in?

 

[William McCay]

What timing does to a motor is increase or decrease the KV

 

[hugh hargett]

Carl meant it the other way.

Timing Advance - The Basics

Since this gets asked often I decided to consolidate some of the information that I have sourced over the past several months under a heading that will come up when doing a search.
 
Every system, ESC and Motor combination, is unique and could/may react differently to timing settings, Here are some
BASIC GUIDELINES
.
 
1. The ESC controls the timing advance on sensorless, brushless motors.
 
2. Wye (Y) wound motors can be run with advanced timing to theoretically increase performance. It is questionable how much performance is really gained at the risk of overheating your motor
 
3. Delta (D) wind motors generally do not fair well with advanced timing and are prone to overheating easily if timing is advanced beyond the lower ranges.
 
4. Running lower timing advance will reduce amp draw and keep motor temps lower, it is generally advised to run at a lower timing advance to reduce stress on your components.
 
5. If you choose to experiment with increased timing advance settings, start low and work your way up while monitoring performance, amp draw, and component temperatures.
 
Here are some excerpts from other web sites and manufacture documentation that support the guidelines listed above.
 
From Another RC Forum
QUOTE:
From my conversations with Castle techs the timing is as follows:
 
Timing change in a brushless motor through software can be compared with twisting the top part of the can of a brushed motor to advance the timing.
 
With BL unsensored motors the timing is automatically and constantly varied within the software. Changing the setting with the CastleLink only changes the range around which the automatic timing varies.
 
With increased timing you theoretically get a bit more power out of the motor at the expense of efficiency (ie: more heat). What's really happening is that the point at which the motor would usually fire (the position of the rotors alignment with respect to the magnetic N/S poles of the magnets) is moved forward in degrees (think 360 degrees to complete a full circle) to produce stronger push/pull forces.
 
My understanding though is that it is not as significant a change in a BL motor as it is in a brushed motor because timing is control automatically by the ESC anyway based on the ESC's knowledge of the rotor position. You may only see a few percent increase in power (pretty negligible).
 
A few threads and articles around pertaining to the Neu/MMM combo and general rule of thumb has been up to about 3* of timing advance for the Delta wound motors and between 5-10* for the Y wound motors. Apparently the Delta wound motors don't take as kindly and will heat up a lot more.
 
All things being equal - with the power of the current BL setups - especially a 1515 motor which can easily crank out 3+ HP on strong batteries - I don't really see the need for more power in an already overpower setup.
 
You'd really probably need an Eagle Tree to see the difference in settings, but I've tried 0* and 3* on a 1515/2.5d with 6S and can't tell any difference. I usually just run timing at lowest setting
.
 
From Castle Creations Mamba Max Manufactures Documentation
From the guidelines above, if the batteries are controlling punch, and gearing is only controlling top speed, where does that leave timing advance to come in for a brushless system? Timing advance in brushless is controlled within the ESC itself instead of rotating the endbell on a brushed motor. Brushed motors are very sensitive about where they are set, and can show large performance (and wear) differences with just a few degrees back and forth. Brushless systems are completely different. Imagine if you could tune the timing of your brushed motor “on the fly” thousands of times per second while you were driving to get the best performance from the motor each time you hammered on the gas out of a corner, feathered the throttle through a sweeper, or goosed it through a long set of doubles. Well that’s exactly what’s going on inside your Mamba Max ESC! What you’ll find when you experiment with timing advance settings, is that going up or down from the normal setting will cause two reactions. With each step down from normal, your motor temp will go down and the top speed will go down about the same as dropping a tooth on the pinion. Going up, it’s just the opposite – it’s like adding a pinion tooth, but the motor temp will go up.
 
Over time with testing, we’ve found it’s best to use a lower setting in order to keep motor temps in check, especially with very very fast setups. Like we talked about in the section above, it’s best to use gearing only for top speed and not necessarily bump up the timing advance to go faster. Where we’ve found this setting most useful at the track, is having a basic setup on the ESC using the normal timing advance setting, and the correct pinion for the track. As track conditions change (either a dirt track going away as it dries, or a carpet track coming in after several rounds) instead of changing the pinion to match the track, just plug in your ESC and drop the timing down for a slower track, or raise it for a track getting faster.
 
Timing Advance Warning:
 
Higher advance makes the motor run hotter, and the higher the Kv of the motor, the hotter it will get! Too high of an advance setting will give the same results as too much advance on a brushed motor – you will actually LOSE power and speed while the motor cooks itself! If you want to go faster – JUST GEAR UP! (PROP UP!)
 
From Castle Creations Drivers Ed Guide - page 32
8. Motor Timing
Advancing the timing on an electric motor can have varying effects. Lowering the timing advance will reduce the amp draw, increase run time, reduce motor/battery temperature, and may slightly reduce top speed and punch.
 
Raising the timing advance will increase amp draw, decrease run time, increase motor/battery temperature, and may slightly increase top speed and punch.
 
If you are after maximum top speed, it’s better to “gear up” to get it rather than advance the timing too far.
 
For brushed motors, always keep this setting on NORMAL and use the end bell of the motor to “tweak” it to max RPM per the motor’s instructions.
 
Setting 1 : Lowest
A maximum efficiency setting giving long run times and cooler motor temps. Very useful with
high Kv (low turn) motors to increase motor life and reduce motor/battery temperatures.
 
Setting 2 : Normal (Default)
The best mix of speed, punch, and efficiency for all motors.
 
Setting 3 : Highest
Increases amp draw, reduces run times, increases motor/battery temperatures, and may increase top speed/punch slightly.
 
Kevin
 
Links
http://www.castlecreations.com/support/documents/drivers_ed_guide.pdf

http://www.castlecreations.com/suppo...s_ed_guide.pdf
http://www.castlecreations.com/support/documents/drivers_ed_guide.pdf
http://www.castlecreations.com/support/max_tuning_guide.html

http://www.castlecreations.com/suppo...ing_guide.html
http://www.castlecreations.com/support/max_tuning_guide.html



Last edited by dag-nabit; 04-19-2011 at 02:59 PM.
TOP, VISIT THE CASTLE WEBSITE READ :blink: :blink: INSTEAD OF TALK SMACK AND YOU MIGHT FIND THAT FE MAKES IT AROUND THE COURSE .......

HOTSHOT

 

[RonShaw]

Carl meant it the other way.

Timing Advance - The Basics

Since this gets asked often I decided to consolidate some of the information that I have sourced over the past several months under a heading that will come up when doing a search.
 
Every system, ESC and Motor combination, is unique and could/may react differently to timing settings, Here are some
BASIC GUIDELINES
.
 
1. The ESC controls the timing advance on sensorless, brushless motors.
 
2. Wye (Y) wound motors can be run with advanced timing to theoretically increase performance. It is questionable how much performance is really gained at the risk of overheating your motor
 
3. Delta (D) wind motors generally do not fair well with advanced timing and are prone to overheating easily if timing is advanced beyond the lower ranges.
 
4. Running lower timing advance will reduce amp draw and keep motor temps lower, it is generally advised to run at a lower timing advance to reduce stress on your components.
 
5. If you choose to experiment with increased timing advance settings, start low and work your way up while monitoring performance, amp draw, and component temperatures.
 
Here are some excerpts from other web sites and manufacture documentation that support the guidelines listed above.
 
From Another RC Forum
QUOTE:
From my conversations with Castle techs the timing is as follows:
 
Timing change in a brushless motor through software can be compared with twisting the top part of the can of a brushed motor to advance the timing.
 
With BL unsensored motors the timing is automatically and constantly varied within the software. Changing the setting with the CastleLink only changes the range around which the automatic timing varies.
 
With increased timing you theoretically get a bit more power out of the motor at the expense of efficiency (ie: more heat). What's really happening is that the point at which the motor would usually fire (the position of the rotors alignment with respect to the magnetic N/S poles of the magnets) is moved forward in degrees (think 360 degrees to complete a full circle) to produce stronger push/pull forces.
 
My understanding though is that it is not as significant a change in a BL motor as it is in a brushed motor because timing is control automatically by the ESC anyway based on the ESC's knowledge of the rotor position. You may only see a few percent increase in power (pretty negligible).
 
A few threads and articles around pertaining to the Neu/MMM combo and general rule of thumb has been up to about 3* of timing advance for the Delta wound motors and between 5-10* for the Y wound motors. Apparently the Delta wound motors don't take as kindly and will heat up a lot more.
 
All things being equal - with the power of the current BL setups - especially a 1515 motor which can easily crank out 3+ HP on strong batteries - I don't really see the need for more power in an already overpower setup.
 
You'd really probably need an Eagle Tree to see the difference in settings, but I've tried 0* and 3* on a 1515/2.5d with 6S and can't tell any difference. I usually just run timing at lowest setting
.
 
From Castle Creations Mamba Max Manufactures Documentation
From the guidelines above, if the batteries are controlling punch, and gearing is only controlling top speed, where does that leave timing advance to come in for a brushless system? Timing advance in brushless is controlled within the ESC itself instead of rotating the endbell on a brushed motor. Brushed motors are very sensitive about where they are set, and can show large performance (and wear) differences with just a few degrees back and forth. Brushless systems are completely different. Imagine if you could tune the timing of your brushed motor “on the fly” thousands of times per second while you were driving to get the best performance from the motor each time you hammered on the gas out of a corner, feathered the throttle through a sweeper, or goosed it through a long set of doubles. Well that’s exactly what’s going on inside your Mamba Max ESC! What you’ll find when you experiment with timing advance settings, is that going up or down from the normal setting will cause two reactions. With each step down from normal, your motor temp will go down and the top speed will go down about the same as dropping a tooth on the pinion. Going up, it’s just the opposite – it’s like adding a pinion tooth, but the motor temp will go up.
 
Over time with testing, we’ve found it’s best to use a lower setting in order to keep motor temps in check, especially with very very fast setups. Like we talked about in the section above, it’s best to use gearing only for top speed and not necessarily bump up the timing advance to go faster. Where we’ve found this setting most useful at the track, is having a basic setup on the ESC using the normal timing advance setting, and the correct pinion for the track. As track conditions change (either a dirt track going away as it dries, or a carpet track coming in after several rounds) instead of changing the pinion to match the track, just plug in your ESC and drop the timing down for a slower track, or raise it for a track getting faster.
 
Timing Advance Warning:
 
Higher advance makes the motor run hotter, and the higher the Kv of the motor, the hotter it will get! Too high of an advance setting will give the same results as too much advance on a brushed motor – you will actually LOSE power and speed while the motor cooks itself! If you want to go faster – JUST GEAR UP! (PROP UP!)
 
From Castle Creations Drivers Ed Guide - page 32
8. Motor Timing
Advancing the timing on an electric motor can have varying effects. Lowering the timing advance will reduce the amp draw, increase run time, reduce motor/battery temperature, and may slightly reduce top speed and punch.
 
Raising the timing advance will increase amp draw, decrease run time, increase motor/battery temperature, and may slightly increase top speed and punch.
 
If you are after maximum top speed, it’s better to “gear up” to get it rather than advance the timing too far.
 
For brushed motors, always keep this setting on NORMAL and use the end bell of the motor to “tweak” it to max RPM per the motor’s instructions.
 
Setting 1 : Lowest
A maximum efficiency setting giving long run times and cooler motor temps. Very useful with
high Kv (low turn) motors to increase motor life and reduce motor/battery temperatures.
 
Setting 2 : Normal (Default)
The best mix of speed, punch, and efficiency for all motors.
 
Setting 3 : Highest
Increases amp draw, reduces run times, increases motor/battery temperatures, and may increase top speed/punch slightly.
 
Kevin
 
Links
http://www.castlecreations.com/support/documents/drivers_ed_guide.pdf

http://www.castlecreations.com/suppo...s_ed_guide.pdf
http://www.castlecreations.com/support/documents/drivers_ed_guide.pdf
http://www.castlecreations.com/support/max_tuning_guide.html

http://www.castlecreations.com/suppo...ing_guide.html
http://www.castlecreations.com/support/max_tuning_guide.html



Last edited by dag-nabit; 04-19-2011 at 02:59 PM.
TOP, VISIT THE CASTLE WEBSITE READ :blink: :blink: INSTEAD OF TALK SMACK AND YOU MIGHT FIND THAT FE MAKES IT AROUND THE COURSE .......

HOTSHOT

This is a smack talk thread allls of yas stop crying and keep on with your thread. Im preparing my CHECKS lol. You should too since youre 100 percent sure about what i got who i know and what i can do. Get ya boats ready and ill see all ya ***** at the lake POINT BLANK Like im suppossed to be scared or something. Gimme a break.

LATER

HOTSHOT

Hugh,

Do you have a son or someone that shares your computer with you? The reason I am asking is I see the first post above and it sounds like you are on your game. Then I see a post like the second one and I think you are off your rocker. Just asking, that's all. Maybe you have two personalities!!!!!.........

 

[hugh hargett]

Im always on my game its just like now you thin as you want to I dont change your thoughts do . Dont worry about me though just be sure to get the correct info on motor timing coz i dont want you to have an excuse when i come to WF.

 

[carlnoki]

Hugh, Ben has the motors still on order at this time.

Sorry bout the WYE deal on the other page, I got it backwards. At work usually and can et thigns messed up with folks coming and going here.

 

[jayt]

X, you can post all the uncredited car guy and plane guy theory you want. I am giving real-world boating results from over twenty years of winning FE races. When I see information posted that is wrong, or which contradicts what I have proven myself through testing - not with someone's "theory" - I will do what any responsible adult would do - correct the inaccuracies so that others will not be misinformed and make costly mistakes by following poor information. I didn't come across badly to Carl, I was just puzzled by his post because I thought he knew the correct answer. But now everyone understands. With so many lurkers here, the resonsible thing to do is to correct mistakes quickly.

This is a smack talk thread allls of yas stop crying and keep on with your thread. Im preparing my CHECKS lol. You should too since youre 100 percent sure about what i got who i know and what i can do. Get ya boats ready and ill see all ya ***** at the lake POINT BLANK Like im suppossed to be scared or something. Gimme a break.

If you can't stand being challenged once in awhile, perhaps you'd best stand aside instead of going off half-cocked with a post like the above - bad language and all. Unfortunately you are back to acting like TP again, and others are beginning to notice. Next you'll be promising us that $50 reliable 300 amp ESC you and your college professor friend were designing. You had better be careful or you'll end up with the same result you had on OSE, etc. I'm just sayin'.

 

[hugh hargett]

Jay my name is Hugh and I dont mind being challaged but you dont challenge me AT all. I say your right and you still talk trash, this aint ose and I aint X get it straight . You can always go back to ose coz we have not missed you. Be sure thats the only place youll be deemed an expert .here on IW were all just learning especially me. You have a habit of just trying to be right all the time when you are not. I dont mind being wrong at all . You live in your own dreamworld. One things for sure writing a few articles in a magazine where you say basically the same stuff you try to argue people down on the forums proves zero to me. Forum or not Im an IMPBA memeber now so anything you wanna do you do it at the lake . Like I told you I bet you wont pass my ss45 point blank.

funny how you didnt chime back in till we verifiewd what you said you sure didnt do it .

Ive already been roasted on IW but trust me I dont wanna come back to a forum where they think youre an expert LOL THATS FUNNY. Tell me again why KB's have wire as you said all over the place? Its called coreless design has to do with dealing with cogging issues has nothing to do with the quality of the motor. Your theory is MONEY thats about it , I wont even validate you by wasting my time talking to ya coz youre irrelevant point blank.

HOTSHOT

 

[carlnoki]

ok guys, please knock it off, ok?

lets just get back to the subject and let this one go please, ok?

Thanks

Carl

 

[hugh hargett]

Carl youre right sorry. Sorry Jay lets move on.

 

[topfuel443]

Ok, so after further inspection, I somehow got my numbers crossed. This is a 1600kv motor, NOT the 1450kv. Im not sure why I though it was a 1450, but I luckily double checked and its the 1600. I just got my program box for the controller, so with my newly found info (Y instead of a D), I am going to set the timing at 7.5* to start with. Anyone foresee any problems running this thing on 6S with the higher kv? I am thinking (maybe incorrectly...) it may be more suited for 5s. Which is a problem since I have all 6s packs right now. I will likely just prop down so as to not load it too much.

 

[topfuel443]

Whoever suggested that I get the program card for this ESC, thanks! That was about 1000 times easier than using the radio....

~ James

 

[HOTWATER]

11° should be good for that Y motor...

-Kent

 

[HTV Boats]

Ok, so after further inspection, I somehow got my numbers crossed. This is a 1600kv motor, NOT the 1450kv. Im not sure why I though it was a 1450, but I luckily double checked and its the 1600. I just got my program box for the controller, so with my newly found info (Y instead of a D), I am going to set the timing at 7.5* to start with. Anyone foresee any problems running this thing on 6S with the higher kv? I am thinking (maybe incorrectly...) it may be more suited for 5s. Which is a problem since I have all 6s packs right now. I will likely just prop down so as to not load it too much.

Should be just fine with an M445 or M447. It will pull a X450 easily but will heat up and eat your batteries faster. Fun for a couple laps though. Those program boxes are slick as you have found out.

Mic