New Futaba 2.4 Ghz System

[ozzy2]

Bill, you're kinda missing the point here. This has nothing to do with sitting back & waiting and everything to do with being sensible about WHAT THE MANUFACTURER SAYS! It's great to share experiences that we all have BUT when that "practical hands on experience" flies in the face of what the manufacturer is saying and/or willing to stand behind that's a different story. I'll say it again, I like the idea of this technology, that's why I called and asked the best possible resource, THE GUYS WHO SERVICE & TUNE THEM. Straight up, no hype, no bullsxxt, no sales pitch. The response was as far as the boats go, or at least in the hi speed applications I asked about they'd like to see them get a little better first. So up to now we have 3 guys who run 40mph tunnel boats saying they're the greatest thing since sliced bread and there's nothing to worry about. Let me ask it this way, is there anyone out there who's had the balls to put one in an 80+mph hydro? :blink:
And Bill I do admire your business "ethics" as far as your customers go, we certainly can use more like you, but you & I both know if you don't carry the latest & greatest, all the hot new stuff that people get hyped on you'd be history in no time.

Hi Don

Ozzy from across the ditch

I have been using the Futaba 2.4G for a couple of months in my 21 rigger at 70 mph absolutely solid i have also used it my 67 rigger.

Another member Willed Bill is using in his Twin 90 rigger and seas the same thing as solid as conventional systems.

This is only my opinion only further experience from other users will confirm or dispel the strength of the Futaba system.

Paul

 

[ALLAN YUEN]

Hi Grim What 's point?? h34r: did you use test which one Analog or Digital servo for RX 2.4 GHZ Make sure that will Futaba pay cover under warrenty because depend on kind of RX model to match servos? If RX come through water ( wet) and will damaged brain chip??? <_< as same as celluler phone fell off through water then destroy NO good!!!

 

[Jerry Dunlap]

Hi Grim What 's point?? h34r: did you use test which one Analog or Digital servo for RX 2.4 GHZ Make sure that will Futaba pay cover under warrenty because depend on kind of RX model to match servos? If RX come through water ( wet) and will damaged brain chip??? <_< as same as celluler phone fell off through water then destroy NO good!!!

Hi Allan,

It's been my experience that any receiver(AM, FM, PCM, etc) does not work well when exposed to water. I've used my 2.4 system in my Miss Vegas with the servos that came with the boat. Worked fine. You do not need to use digital servos with the 2.4 system.

JD

 

[Will Gallagher]

Wow, lots of opinions on this. :blink:

The Futaba has made a huge investment developing this product that utilizes Spread Spectrum technology. Is this an unproven technology? Not at all, Spread Spectrum is the world wide commercial standard for wireless voice and data transmissions. It has been since the early 90’s.

The challenge is our use of this product. Water among other objects produces Reflection / Multipath, or as it is sometimes referred to as Fading. Fading is caused by reflected images of an RF signal arriving at the receiver such that the phase of the delayed (reflected) signal is 180 deg out of phase with the direct RF signal. Since the direct signal and the delayed signals are out of phase, they cancel each other causing the amplitude seen by the receiver to be greatly reduced.

In order for any direct sequence spread spectrum radio system to operate, all Transmitters and Receivers must be precisely synchronized. If they are not synchronized, it becomes nearly impossible to recover the codes used to identify individual radio signals.

Without the opportunity to read the product definition document / White paper it impossible to fully understand how the FASST system operates. I would guess that it utilizes some sort of Time Diversity technique common to most digital transmission systems.

The bottom line is, the Receiver must have the ability to distinguish direct signals from multipath signals “Fading”. I am confident that it can at most heat racing speeds (50 to 70mph). The question is can it maintain this level of performance at the higher speeds (80 to 90mph).

I don’t want to sound like a poster boy for Futaba products, but in the 29 years that I have used their products the only issues I have ever had were self induced. Along the way I have tried other brands, but I just prefer the Quality and performance I get from Futaba.

At some point I will buy one of the new FASST radios, but for now I am still working thought my stock pile of 3PJS and 3 PK’s.

 

[Don Ferrette]

Will-

The path loss & sychronization is what the tech alluded to when I talked to him about the 2.4 system. Could you go into further detail as if I recall didn't the folks you work for put the 2.4 communications technology on the map? :unsure:

 

[Will Gallagher]

There is no easy answer to any of this. One thing to understand is, Manufactures Technical specifications are always theoretical. Once the manufacturer has a working product, it is tested to not only meet the theoretical specifications, in most cases exceed them. The testing is generally done in controlled environments so it can be repeated. Mike Z and Jerry D indicated that the Futaba specification was 70 or 80 meters, witch I am sure is a very conservative but makes you wonder what the results will be at greater distance or what the actual repeatable rage is. Keep in mind that atmosphere and the surrounding area affect the RF signal. It’s the same as measuring sound levels.

In many environments, the multipath signals will arrive at the receiver after a much longer delay. This means that only a narrow portion of the signal is lost. This can result in the complete loss of an analog signal but only reduces the power in a portion of a Spread Spectrum signal. As the spreading width of a Spread Spectrum signal increases, so does its multipath fading resistance.

The higher the Frequency, the greater the path loss. Someone might think increasing the transmit power would resolve this issue, but it creates more issues then it resolves. Again it would be interesting to read about the actual functionality of the FASST system. Not the highly refined marketing info that is available to us.

The company that I have worked for the last 12 years commercially developed CDMA Digital technology and associated products. This is the over the air protocol and chip sets that all Sprint and Verizon phones operate on here in the U.S. as well as many other cellular carriers throughout the world. For 5 years prior to that I worked for a large cellular carrier as a network engineer.

 

[Mike Larson]

Nice to see a thread not getting outta control, and gaining info about better equipment as we go....... Now... with the standard 1/3 mile course, the longest course in the array, the maximum distance should you be right on the bouys is 185 feet one way, ( everyone stays on the bouys, right?) given the drivers stand is centered on the course. distance from the course varies from pond to pond, too..... adding an "X' factor to range..... given lane 8, and denying X for now the distance may swell to 200, 210, and beyond ( losing time at mill, collision aviodance) seems to me within the manufacturer's range stated be it 70 m or 80. Mike's testing achieving distances of 1300 ft/app 400 m sounds to me like Futaba has smartly understated the maximum range of the system, for safety/COA purposes, which is great...... 'course, I think i'm the only guy havin to be in the position to "lose" 200 m at mill, on one end of the course. Even if it's 100m on one end, I think I'd have shut my boat down before it was a football field offa 2! The technology in the new radio system in my non initiated opinion seems to be the best of all worlds, from what i understand, a constant search for a clear uninterrupted signal at speeds unimaginable before, AND two antenna systems for any redundancy involved.... to me, this is reading extra fail safe........ this coming ahead of a future thread on dual FM old school receiver installions/procedure, to gain serious system redundancy in my fast boat, I think I know where th future in that boat will be...... Perception being, ( novicely interpreted, by me) that this system simply cannot or will not accept anything but the next clearest signal shuffled through, gaining the ultimate in lock on from Tx to Rx....... worry free of the inevitable old school "musta picked up a glitch from sumthin"" We're lucky to have field testors/reps aboard that relay their data to us...... beside the point, but, Mike, which boat did ya roll the dice on to learn the 1300 foot parameter? That took a set, for sure. Was it fast? Faster than a radio signal? post info on your installation techniques, if anything special from standard need be, and we'll all benefit from future gains in this system..... keep the feedback coming....... I'll have one. Price? Distributor? no scrappin, and none intended, great info innovative product, awesome thread..... straighten me out, that's my opinion, it could be wrong...... mike

 

[Don Ferrette]

Will, thanks for sharing your knowledge on this, great to have someone here who is well versed & understands the 2.4 technology in depth, keep it coming. My primary concerns here are the overall capability of these systems regarding the reflectivity factor of 2.4 & water (sorry Mike Z. but FM & 2.4 are not the same in this instance regardless of what your EE told you) & the range. In recent years the open offshore class has become one of our biggest draws on both district & club levels with the offshore buoys placed well out in the distance. At the Chesapeake, Va. race site the offshore buoy is significantly more than 70 meters away from the drivers stand and this class is the largest at both the club races & the annual Invitational. Like I have said repeatedly before, I like this new technology. What I do have a BIG problem with is this "leap of faith" attitude being portayed by a select few, this is just wrong. The notion of manufacturers "covering their butts" on the range is flawed, it is just the opposite. They will list the maximum they know it will work properly in an effort to offer something better than the next guy. These specs are also in a controlled environment as Will eluded to. You all need to keep in mind that we are but a small niche in the RC world & the radio devices we use are/were designed and targeted for the car market and that faction buys the latest hype at the drop of a hat so any manufacturer will look for that selling edge, don't kid yourselves for a single second. As a site example at the Chesapeake pond there is a rather large antenna array a very short distance from the water that belongs to the police station & is within direct sight of where we run from. This tower also has clearly visible cell repeaters on it and this is one location where you don't want to run an AM radio, we've seen the issues, so much for that "controlled environment". The IMPBA has allowed using these radios at your own risk and has not officially embraced the technology .... yet. I think in time & it won't be long either, there will be further advancements in the 2.4 radios that the concerns I have will become history BUT UNTIL THAT TIME becomes reality IN MANUFACTURER'S PRINT I will still speak out on this "I know the manufacturer says this but trust me" attitude. Be careful & cautious is the best approach for now & don't press these 2.4 radios beyond the stated limitations.

 

[Will Gallagher]

Couple of things to keep in mind:

A receiver does not need to have two physical antennas to have redundancy. Some receivers have circuit’s called searchers that look at the multipath signals and correlate the signals together with direct signals witch creates processor gain. Yes, it is a form of redundancy.

Spread Spectrum is a RF technique that can be used at any frequency band (27 MHz, 75 MHz or 2.4 GHz) as long as there is unused space in that band. It’s possible for the bandwidth of a Spread Spectrum signal to be 30 times wider then a narrow band signal. This requires a frequency band with lots of room. The 2.4GHz band is a relatively unused (lot’s of room) portion of the frequency spectrum. I mentioned on my last post, Higher the Frequency, higher the path loss. The Spread Spectrum technique allows products to function much more reliably at this part of the spectrum.

The offshore class is defiantly popular. I am not sure of the required distance for the offshore buoy, but in Atlanta it looked every bit of 300 ft or better from the drivers stand. With the majority of the boats in this class running gas engines with ignition systems that produce lots of spurious emissions. The receiver’s ability to stay synchronized will be truly put to the test.

The key to any radio installation is a DRY radio box with as much of the antenna exposed vertically.

 

[Bob Morton]

Hummm does it work

Yes I have tested at the best R/C lake I know and I have been to a bunch .

I have gone shore to shore at Lake Aurther in The Keystone State. 750 feet wide and 900 feet

left to right with no problems. And there is a gas guy running on here to no problems.

Oh ran one in my twin,20 hydro,and some of my scales. Read the directions,oh keep um dry.

This were it`s at . Geeeze we buy big buck engines and it give you no garentee

 

[Don Ferrette]

Hummm does it work
Yes I have tested at the best R/C lake I know and I have been to a bunch .

I have gone shore to shore at Lake Aurther in The Keystone State. 750 feet wide and 900 feet

left to right with no problems. And there is a gas guy running on here to no problems.

Oh ran one in my twin,20 hydro,and some of my scales. Read the directions,oh keep um dry.

This were it`s at . Geeeze we buy big buck engines and it give you no garentee

When did you buy a 2.4 radio Bob? That's not what you had at Atlanta or was I just that out of it ..... :blink:

 

[Scott Norris]

Hummm does it work
Yes I have tested at the best R/C lake I know and I have been to a bunch .

I have gone shore to shore at Lake Aurther in The Keystone State. 750 feet wide and 900 feet

left to right with no problems. And there is a gas guy running on here to no problems.

Oh ran one in my twin,20 hydro,and some of my scales. Read the directions,oh keep um dry.

This were it`s at . Geeeze we buy big buck engines and it give you no garentee

Now that got my attention Bob!

 

[Bob Morton]

Hummm does it work
Yes I have tested at the best R/C lake I know and I have been to a bunch .

I have gone shore to shore at Lake Aurther in The Keystone State. 750 feet wide and 900 feet

left to right with no problems. And there is a gas guy running on here to no problems.

Oh ran one in my twin,20 hydro,and some of my scales. Read the directions,oh keep um dry.

This were it`s at . Geeeze we buy big buck engines and it give you no garentee

When did you buy a 2.4 radio Bob? That's not what you had at Atlanta or was I just that out of it ..... :blink:

I have had one for a while. No i did not use it in Atlanta. but we di talk about them on the why down.

As i said in the car they are the why to go.

 

[Bob Morton]

Hummm does it work
Yes I have tested at the best R/C lake I know and I have been to a bunch .

I have gone shore to shore at Lake Aurther in The Keystone State. 750 feet wide and 900 feet

left to right with no problems. And there is a gas guy running on here to no problems.

Oh ran one in my twin,20 hydro,and some of my scales. Read the directions,oh keep um dry.

This were it`s at . Geeeze we buy big buck engines and it give you no garentee

Now that got my attention Bob!

Hi Scott,

That was just my point :lol:

 

[rcpilotbill]

Another successful race day at the pond with my FASST system (heat wins in B Sport, B Mod and 1st overall in D Tunnel) and once again, not a single nervous twitch, quiver, nervous servo.... nothing but rock solid performance, which is what I have come to expect and experience....

Just thought I would pass on more pond time experience.....

Thanks guys!!

Bill

 

[Russ Nachtweih]

I used my new Futaba 2.4 installed in the 3vcs yesterday and today. I ran .40 Mono, B-Hydro, .20 Hydro and .40 Tunnel. I experienced no problems with this system what so ever.

I would recommend this to anyone interested in stepping into the world of No Frequency Pins and Not Having To Put Your Antenna Up, although I was tempted many times to reach for my old antenna.

Regards,

Russ Nachtweih

 

[Don Ferrette]

Ok here's a question- I was digging around on Futaba's web site trying to find more info in the 2.4 FASST sytem & came across this from the 3PK FASST module manual (.pdf file)-

How to turn on the power

A certain ID number is given to the receiver automatically. Identifying

this ID number, the system will minimize the interference from other

transmitters.

1 Bring the transmitter and the receiver close to each other

within one meter.

2 Turn on the transmitter.

Note: Check the LED on the module.

Parameter check for 0.5 seconds after power-on Red: On

Transmitting signals Green: On

F/S is activated by the tactile switch of the module.

(PPM mode) Green: Blink

Unrecoverable failure (EEPROM, etc.) Red and Green turn

on alternatively.

PCM is improperly selected. Red: Blink

3 Turn on the receiver.

4 Push the tactile switch of the receiver.

Note: Check the LED of the receiver.

No signal reception Red : On

Receiving signals Green: On

Receiving signals, but ID is unmatched. Green: Blink

Unrecoverable failure (EEPROM, etc.) Red and Green turn

on alternatively.

 

Do you have to synch up the TX & RX every time your turn on or is this a one time deal? :blink:

 

[RodneyPierce]

Don, I do belive it is a one time deal. I know on my spektrum, it was a one time setup deal at the beginning, then its good to go from there on out.

 

[Joe_Knesek]

Ok here's a question- I was digging around on Futaba's web site trying to find more info in the 2.4 FASST sytem & came across this from the 3PK FASST module manual (.pdf file)-
How to turn on the power

A certain ID number is given to the receiver automatically. Identifying

this ID number, the system will minimize the interference from other

transmitters.

1 Bring the transmitter and the receiver close to each other

within one meter.

2 Turn on the transmitter.

Note: Check the LED on the module.

Parameter check for 0.5 seconds after power-on Red: On

Transmitting signals Green: On

F/S is activated by the tactile switch of the module.

(PPM mode) Green: Blink

Unrecoverable failure (EEPROM, etc.) Red and Green turn

on alternatively.

PCM is improperly selected. Red: Blink

3 Turn on the receiver.

4 Push the tactile switch of the receiver.

Note: Check the LED of the receiver.

No signal reception Red : On

Receiving signals Green: On

Receiving signals, but ID is unmatched. Green: Blink

Unrecoverable failure (EEPROM, etc.) Red and Green turn

on alternatively.

 

Do you have to synch up the TX & RX every time your turn on or is this a one time deal? :blink:

From what I read it's a one time only thing.

"Futaba 2.4GHz FASST system transmitters leave the factory with a unique and permanent ID code. Once linked to the receiver, the code ensures that the receiver will recognize and respond ONLY to that transmitter. The linking process is simple...just push a button on the receiver."

 

[Jerry Dunlap]

Ok here's a question- I was digging around on Futaba's web site trying to find more info in the 2.4 FASST sytem & came across this from the 3PK FASST module manual (.pdf file)-
How to turn on the power

A certain ID number is given to the receiver automatically. Identifying

this ID number, the system will minimize the interference from other

transmitters.

1 Bring the transmitter and the receiver close to each other

within one meter.

2 Turn on the transmitter.

Note: Check the LED on the module.

Parameter check for 0.5 seconds after power-on Red: On

Transmitting signals Green: On

F/S is activated by the tactile switch of the module.

(PPM mode) Green: Blink

Unrecoverable failure (EEPROM, etc.) Red and Green turn

on alternatively.

PCM is improperly selected. Red: Blink

3 Turn on the receiver.

4 Push the tactile switch of the receiver.

Note: Check the LED of the receiver.

No signal reception Red : On

Receiving signals Green: On

Receiving signals, but ID is unmatched. Green: Blink

Unrecoverable failure (EEPROM, etc.) Red and Green turn

on alternatively.

 

Do you have to synch up the TX & RX every time your turn on or is this a one time deal? :blink:

No. My experience has been once you have it set - it's set.

JD(ran the 2.4 in 6 boats at the same race Russ attended. No problems. If Russ could get into a rowboat as well as his 2.4 system worked, he wouldn't have needed a change of clothing on Saturday.)