NAMBA Race Management System Project

[T.S.Davis]

Soap box Dave. Apologies in advance........

Conclusions drawn from facts are not facts. Logical conclusions maybe. Conclusions are merely inferences based on facts. If those inferences include a preconceived notion(not a fact) it tends to nullify the "logic". That notion being that NAMBA and/or IMPBA are inherently untrustworthy.

RCRE was unreliable. Clubs using it experienced black outs. Mid may sounds familiar actually. Race registrants would not be able to sign up for events for periods of time. Hosts got emails like "RCRE is down. How do I sign up?" ugh. "What do we do if RCRE isn't going to work?" Contest organizers would be looking to download entrees for the next days heats only to find the site was down.....again. So I'm guessing.........this was the reason for the offer to host it. NOT a fact. Just an inference on my part. A "logical conclusion". I would also be willing to wager that had RCRE been more reliable that there would have been no NAMBA race management discussion. This too is not a FACT. It's a logical conclusion based on my experience with RCRE, NAMBA, and multiple contest officials from both organizations. The frustration level was high. That actually is a fact.

Provided for free, no time to deal with it, did I mention I do this for free in my spare time? Yes we got it. Hence...............alternative. Truth? Nope. Just my own conclusion.

I could have it all completely wrong though. This is the risk with inferences that include preconceived notions. Logic that includes my opinion isn't really logic. It's certainly not necessarily the truth. No matter how convinced I am that my logic lead me to "the truth".

Sorry Dave. I didn't realize there was that much blood loss on the topic.

Back to that topic. I think the whole idea has the potential to be something incredible. I'm guessing you'll need beta testers. I think you know Fred from MMEU. We'll run it through the meat grinder for ya when you think it's time.

 

[John Knight]

Deleted.

 

[Danny King]

Having a IMPBA and NAMBA is counter productive!

The last thing this hobby needs is political crap! Even in a hobby with a common ground there are lines being drawn. Unbelievable!

If NAMBA wants to take initiative and try and better things. Great for NAMBA!

 

[David Santistevan]

Look folks, there are other agendas at work here. Simply put, NAMBA is writing it's own package for race management. It will be tailored to our need and since we are paying for it that is okay. If any other organization would like to help fund the project I suspect that the NAMBA board would like to hear from them and then those folks can decide if they can come to common ground on cost and functionality.

Terry is correct, the outage in May was the primary impetus for moving forward with this project. A lot of NAMBA clubs were hurt and were left scrambling with the potential to impact hudreds of boaters. No ding on BIll, it was a free service back then and you can't complain about something you don't pay for, It did however, expose a need and the risks of not having that need met. It is the responsibility and mission of NAMBA to address this.

Bill, when I first talk to you I was interested in donating my services at my datacenter and staff to help fix the bugs and shortcomings of the software. This was appropriate since you made it clear there would be no further enhancements and bug fixes. Then in May when the site was down for so long I tried once again to get you to move it to my datacenters at no cost to provide a more reliable platform. It was about that time that the NAMBA board realized we needed to do something and charted me with developing a system. I made it clear that it might be better to try and acquire a COPY RCRE for our own development as it would be quicker and probably cheaper. Somewhere along the line you drew the conclusion that we were trying to steal your software. This makes no sense, NAMBA is a international organization with a great reputation. Why would they do something that damage that? You are way off base here. I suspect that your posts here are more about lost revenue to you more than anything since NAMBA having it's own system does nothing to impact anyone else from using your system including NAMBA clubs. It is too bad you feel this way because it is causing drama. Let it go.

TOM MOOREHOUSE, PLEASE LOCK THIS THREAD AS IT HAS BECOME SOMETHING OTHER THAN WHAT IT WAS INTENDED.

 

[Bill Britton]

This is the final time I'm going to say this.

I don't care if you or NAMBA create your own race management portal. Be my guest. I also don't care about the money. If that was the case RCRE would not have been free for almost a decade.

The fact is that I now find that you are directly involved with the creation of Namba's race management system at the same time you were aggressively recruiting me to allow you to host RCRE. But you neglected to offer up that little tidbit of information.

You sir are not stupid. Your an IT Guy. You know that the Perl programming language is not compiled and that the code is free readable. You KNEW that this would give you access to my source code.

This was completely dishonest of you. You sir are untrustworthy.

Now this post can be locked.

Bill

 

[Al Hobbs]

I have known David Santisteven for many years. I have known NAMBA President Robert Holland since he was a young boy. I have nothing but respect and good will for both of these men.

I think it is a good idea for NAMBA to move into the 21st Century and create a complete and trustworthy system that can serve all model boaters.

As many of you know, I race in both IMPBA and NAMBA events and have raced in both since the early 1980's. I also race in many international events and have done so for many years. My experience is that all modelboating organizations have a goal to make things better for their members and other organizations as well.

Al Hobbs

 

[T.S.Davis]

Holy crap. Conspiracy theorists aren't wired the same as normal people. The glass is always half empty.

Bill, you wanted RCRE to be free but suddenly are issuing invoices. Is that just for NAMBA clubs? The site says nothing about a per use fee. We've received no indication that a fee was expected yet we did receive an invoice. Should we conclude that this is just dishonesty on your part? Ridiculous. I refuse to make that leap as I do not believe that to be the case. We would gladly have paid for the service too BTW. It works. Flawed but workable. Heck, Windows 7 has flaws we all live with.

For the innocent by standers/readers.............take a second and ask yourself "what for?" Why does anyone that gets involved with either race organization do so? I don't mean racing. I mean doing the work of the organizations. It's not for the perpetual assaults on their integrity. Well intended people volunteering their free time to help make racing happen..........but......why do they? For fun. For joy. To see a 10 year old win a heat and grin so hard his face looks like it may break. To see that spark in a guys eyes when that impossible boat finally finishes a heat. To give people an excuse to get together for something other than drinking beer. Uhhh................not that there's anything wrong with that.

This ain't big business. We're not oil tycoons trying to corner some market or another.

 

[Bill Britton]

Terry

There was a notice posted here almost two months ago (August 04, 2015). Everyone else has seen it. And your right it ain't big biz. I ate the cost for almost ten years. And yes MMEU received two invoices. Both of which have been ignored.

MMEU is the only club to do so.

Here is the link to the notice;

http://www.intlwaters.com/index.php?showtopic=65255&p=638806

PS* What exactly is so flawed? Please explain. I have asked numerous times here on IW for constructive advice and requests. I havent heard form anyone about any "Flaws." In fact all I hear is how flawless it works.

Please elaborate.

 

[David Santistevan]

Mr. Hobbs, thank you. There are enough boaters out there who know me to have a pretty good sense of what I am about. Mr. Britton, I have counted at least five time that you have made an assertion that I/NAMBA were trying to steal your software. You got it out there, you said what you needed to say, people are going to buy It or they aren't. Please stop posting here.

 

[Rokieboater]

This is truly crazy. NAMBA will continue to develop a race management system. Hopefully it can be used for all boaters. People that know me understand that I bleed NAMBA and make no excuses for that. They also understand I have no ill will towards IMPBA or its members. I have always stated that it would be nice if our system could be used by other organizations as well. Members of our Board stated that it should be of use to all boaters. I still stand behind that. I always wish to promote model boating as a whole.

Remember we are talking about an online race program. Not imposing our will on other organizations nor excluding them. This thought process came to fruition because another race program was down and race CD's could not extract information for upcoming races. We saw that as a problem, looked at our resources, reached out to our Board of Directors and decided to move forward with this endeavor. NAMBA has always had the highest regard for every individual that wishes to promote model boating in every part of the world. We still have the highest regard for Bill and wish him great success with his program. I am also grateful that is was a free service for so many years and understand the need to charge for the service now. My own district uses it exclusively. Again, Thank you Bill. However you are misguided as to our intentions but I fear that I, nor anyone else can change your mind about that. Hopefully our actions in the future will show our truest intent.

I am excited to see what the future holds with our race program. Now lets get back to the original intent of this thread. Ideas can be sent to Dave as mentioned in post one.

Thanks,

Robert Holland

NAMBA President

 

[T.S.Davis]

Holy crap! Robert and I agree on something. Picture me clutching my chest.

I can't help myself. Can anyone explain to my WHY either organization having a race management package is a bad idea? Someone not responsible for a competing piece of software. I'm so lost by the notion that in so doing the hobby will be negatively impacted.

Honestly, I feel like NAMBA developing something for the hobby besides insurance and a rule set is just cool. I would feel the same way if IMPBA was developing it's own deal. Heck, it would be cool if NAVIGA had one too. They may already for all I know.

 

[T.S.Davis]

So this is the only objection?

"thinly veiled power grab by one sanctioning body over another."

Nobody else has any real reasons to object to NAMBA developing management software for it's membership?

 

[Ian Webster]

... Heck, it would be cool if NAVIGA had one too. They may already for all I know.

Naviga don't have their own. There are a number of systems available that use the input from transponders to count and time races. In Sweden we use bbk software.

Other software includes MyLaps and others.

We use these for timed events for endurance (FSR-V) and offshore (FSR-O) and also for lap restricted events for hydro (FSR-H).

 

[Karl loveless]

Bill,

I have read through this thread and must respond. Bill you were the person that posted some time ago that RCRE was for sale correct? When that was announced many conversations took place (not all with you) about a way to keep the service going... I was one of the people interested in purchasing it or going in on it with others and did send you a message that might have been "vague" because I simply wanted to know what your asking price was. I am not a programmer or tech genius but a guy who loves to put on races and used your site often. I am sure you can recall your site being down more then up and at that time many BIG races where in total confusion because of it. I saw many chat rooms talking about the site and what was going on with it and how CD's were scrambling to put on the race due to the site issues, so that is why the NAMBA Race Management System was pushed forward not becuase you would not sell it as you stated.

What is the big deal with David or others offereing to purchase something you said you wanted to sell, your surprised someone wanted to purchase it I guess.. David is all about making NAMBA and model boating in general better for boaters so I am not surprised he tried many times to purchase or even support the site for FREE at his own data center!

I am very proud of the work done by Robert Holland, David Santistevan and others to further the technology needed to bring NAMBA into the 21st century and expand services for it's members and leaders alike. NAMBA is always looking for ways to provide it's members more benefits and this will be a massive benefit! Bill you also talk about fees or possible charges for the usage from non-NAMBA members and yeah maybe that will be the case but I am sure it will be very clear what they are and not mid-season.

You want to talk about agenda's yet you drop a fee bomb on all clubs during mid-season and don't explore donation or sponsorship options first just start charging fees. Many large districts have stopped using the service over this and I still read about clubs aware of the fees until they get a bill day later..

The great thing about our country is that we have the freedom to create and of choice and boaters will have another choice very soon.

Robert Holland, David Santistevan and all the others that will be working on this THANK YOU.

Happy Boating!

 

[Bill Britton]

Bill,

I have read through this thread and must respond. Bill you were the person that posted some time ago that RCRE was for sale correct? When that was announced many conversations took place (not all with you) about a way to keep the service going... I was one of the people interested in purchasing it or going in on it with others and did send you a message that might have been "vague" because I simply wanted to know what your asking price was. I am not a programmer or tech genius but a guy who loves to put on races and used your site often. I am sure you can recall your site being down more then up and at that time many BIG races where in total confusion because of it. I saw many chat rooms talking about the site and what was going on with it and how CD's were scrambling to put on the race due to the site issues, so that is why the NAMBA Race Management System was pushed forward not becuase you would not sell it as you stated.

I think you may be over-exaggerating quite a bit here just to validate your argument. It really was not down that much. for a few minutes or an hour or so at a time at worst.

What is the big deal with David or others offereing to purchase something you said you wanted to sell, your surprised someone wanted to purchase it I guess.. David is all about making NAMBA and model boating in general better for boaters so I am not surprised he tried many times to purchase or even support the site for FREE at his own data center!

The offer to sell RCRE was almost 5 years ago. Not recently at all. I think the offer from Namba was $700? I was actually rather insulted.

I am very proud of the work done by Robert Holland, David Santistevan and others to further the technology needed to bring NAMBA into the 21st century and expand services for it's members and leaders alike. NAMBA is always looking for ways to provide it's members more benefits and this will be a massive benefit! Bill you also talk about fees or possible charges for the usage from non-NAMBA members and yeah maybe that will be the case but I am sure it will be very clear what they are and not mid-season.

Be careful about saying anything about bringing rc boating into the 21 century, That is a trademarked logo of mine.

You want to talk about agenda's yet you drop a fee bomb on all clubs during mid-season and don't explore donation or sponsorship options first just start charging fees. Many large districts have stopped using the service over this and I still read about clubs aware of the fees until they get a bill day later..

There has been a donation button on the website since it was created almost ten years ago. You know how much as been donated since then?

$0.00

There have been ad sponsorship's on the website for almost six years.You know how much that made?

$0.00

If districts want to stop using it because after ten years it now cost a nominal fee then I guess that tells you why they were using it.

The great thing about our country is that we have the freedom to create and of choice and boaters will have another choice very soon.

Robert Holland, David Santistevan and all the others that will be working on this THANK YOU.

Happy Boating!

And Happy Coding!

PS* For as much as everyone here tries to say it sucks, or has limitations, or flaws, whatever. There have been 87 entries taken on RCRE today since 7:45 this morning.

Just saying.

One final thing here then i am done with this;

I could almost believe that there were only honest intentions when they wanted to host RCRE.

With the exception of one small thing.

They decided NOT to tell me they were working on one at the same time they tried to get me to let them host RCRE.

That alone tells me and everyone else who cares all there is to know about the integrity of those involved.

You guy's must think i'm an idiot...

I'm out.

 

[JamesShields]

Try to go on to the website twice today and it says "website not available".

 

[David Santistevan]

Hey folks, appreciate the support and comments but you can see what we are up against here. Lets all move on. I have bitten my tongue even after taking direct hits on my integrity and just plain incorrect information because these post do nothing more than aggravate everyone reading and posting. All future updates on the NAMBA project will be posted on the NAMBA Facebook Pages and the NAMBA websites where we can keep the discussions on track. It sounds like we have a path forward. Bill has gotten the feedback he asked for RCRE and now he can choose what he want's to do. NAMBA is working on their project and hopefully we will have another choice for boaters

. I am going to be working hard to get us there. BTW I trademarked the terms "Jump Start" and "buoy infraction" so don't anyone try using them (JK Gotcha Bill)!

PS. Since I am in charge of IT for NAMBA, alot of official NAMBA information I post I have made sure to also post to IW. I can see that this may be a mistake an going forward I will only be posting for myself to get help or find help. I will be posting "official NAMBA" information and announcements on the NAMBA Web Pages and Facebook pages. Other NAMBA board members may choose to officially post here but that will be there decision.

Thanks Guys,

D

 

[Karl loveless]

Bill,

I have read through this thread and must respond. Bill you were the person that posted some time ago that RCRE was for sale correct? When that was announced many conversations took place (not all with you) about a way to keep the service going... I was one of the people interested in purchasing it or going in on it with others and did send you a message that might have been "vague" because I simply wanted to know what your asking price was. I am not a programmer or tech genius but a guy who loves to put on races and used your site often. I am sure you can recall your site being down more then up and at that time many BIG races where in total confusion because of it. I saw many chat rooms talking about the site and what was going on with it and how CD's were scrambling to put on the race due to the site issues, so that is why the NAMBA Race Management System was pushed forward not becuase you would not sell it as you stated.

I think you may be over-exaggerating quite a bit here just to validate your argument. It really was not down that much. for a few minutes or an hour or so at a time at worst.

Others can confirm or deny but when I was involved in the 2013 NATS is was down many times, I know I was the one tracking our entries...

What is the big deal with David or others offereing to purchase something you said you wanted to sell, your surprised someone wanted to purchase it I guess.. David is all about making NAMBA and model boating in general better for boaters so I am not surprised he tried many times to purchase or even support the site for FREE at his own data center!

The offer to sell RCRE was almost 5 years ago. Not recently at all. I think the offer from Namba was $700? I was actually rather insulted.

Surely I can't confirm or deny the offer you got.

I am very proud of the work done by Robert Holland, David Santistevan and others to further the technology needed to bring NAMBA into the 21st century and expand services for it's members and leaders alike. NAMBA is always looking for ways to provide it's members more benefits and this will be a massive benefit! Bill you also talk about fees or possible charges for the usage from non-NAMBA members and yeah maybe that will be the case but I am sure it will be very clear what they are and not mid-season.

Be careful about saying anything about bringing rc boating into the 21 century, That is a trademarked logo of mine.

I said "bring NAMBA into the 21st century" take a look

You want to talk about agenda's yet you drop a fee bomb on all clubs during mid-season and don't explore donation or sponsorship options first just start charging fees. Many large districts have stopped using the service over this and I still read about clubs aware of the fees until they get a bill day later..

There has been a donation button on the website since it was created almost ten years ago. You know how much as been donated since then?

$0.00

There have been ad sponsorship's on the website for almost six years.You know how much that made?

$0.00

If districts want to stop using it because after ten years it now cost a nominal fee then I guess that tells you why they were using it.

It was more about a mid-season (example FE Nats was in the middle of enteries and trying to budget for all the expenses and then out of no where you ask for fees) no hard start date or hall pass for clubs that were in the middle of using your site.

The great thing about our country is that we have the freedom to create and of choice and boaters will have another choice very soon.

Robert Holland, David Santistevan and all the others that will be working on this THANK YOU.

Happy Boating!

And Happy Coding!

PS* For as much as everyone here tries to say it sucks, or has limitations, or flaws, whatever. There have been 87 entries taken on RCRE today since 7:45 this morning.

Just saying.

I never said your site was not helpful or a big season some of these large races stay organized.

 

[Karl loveless]

Moving on, time to go the lake!

 

[KenOlvis]

Try to go on to the website twice today and it says "website not available".

I have been to site many times today no problem. The problem may be at your end