ML Boatworks GP-400 Build

[Mike Luszcz]

Test them all! I want to know too!

 

[Bert Dygert]

Mike and Anthony,

When I put a 1455 two blade on the hull the boat developes an hop. I could probally adjust the strut flat to get rid of the hop but I was looking for speed and better boat ride. I did have a Prather 240 on the boat with great straightaway speed but the prop slipped in the corners. The best prop so far is an X452 two blade. I want to try a three blade X452 and X455 two blade as well. So far the HR motor has pulled all the props I have put on the boat.

Mike, I will get a hull weight tomorrow but I'm betting it's around 8 pounds.

Bert

 

[Joe Wiebelhaus]

gone

 

[Mike Luszcz]

I keep hearing cut the sponsons, but no one has told me why that is going to help. In fact, everyone out there that races, has had to add depth to sponsons on other sport boats? Shallowing sponsons increases air velocity, making more pressure under the hull...Why would cutting sponsons down help as its goes against everything. When your CoG is at 3" behind the sponson heal, and you have the strut so shallow its creating a positive angle under the pan...what else would happen but failure!

Let me ask you this, what other sport boat, has anyone owned, that they would run 3" behind the CoG as a setup??? Its crazy to assume this one would allow for that when no other boat out there wants you to run more than 1" behind the transom. Try that with any other sport hull made, and I guarantee the same results will happen. As I have told Bert and Doug, give my setup a try first, if it doesn't work, modify the boat, and at that time, if the change works, I will discontinue selling this boat to any nitro user permanently as its becoming a headache. None of these problems appeared in all 4 sizes of my personal hulls when they were set up properly..I just don't by into the fact that it being Nitro would change basic setup principles. CoG is CoG I don't care what power plant. Add some lead, balance the thing where it needs to be, then we can compare apples to apples. Joe, I am not trying to sound upset, but I am upset in the fact that I just want everyone to set the boat up in the parameters that I know have worked before ideas of design changes are needed. That is working completely backwards! Mike

 

[anthony_marquart]

Joe,.. can you give some more info on your recommendation? What is it about the 1 in ride height that will cause problems? Seems like being a little more off the water will keep you free of the drag.. even in race water.. can you explain..

 

[Mike Luszcz]

Exactly Anthony...almost all the rigger builders are going to higher and higher ride height as it works, why would this not be the same. The thing I really do not understand is my current base design for scale hulls is 1" and I was recommended that by Joe, now I am hearing different and I have no idea why...It is very confusing to me.

 

[Joe Wiebelhaus]

Mike,

Sorrrry

 

[Mike Luszcz]

Joe, first, sorry for getting reactive. You are right, I do not race as much as any of you guys, but this boat was designed with recommendations from a lot of people that do. I just want Bert to give the setup info I gave him a chance before sponson mods are thrown around. People will remember that in their head, even if it ends up not being needed, that is all I am asking. Weight or no weight, CoG at 3" behind the sponson heal would blow my 12lb FE setup off the water, and it would kill a scale hydro as well all know at 10mph slower and 6lbs more weight... combine that with a strut depth/ prop diameter that is 5/16" shallower than I used and its simple math...there will be problems on the water, espcially with as calm as the water was in those pictures as that will hold in even more air. That is what, I would think, needs to be addressed first as its a recipe for disaster, and lowering the boat down on the water would magnify that problem if those needs were not being changed. That is all I am saying. I just would like these things addressed before automatic sponson mod changes being thrown out there!!! Thanks and sorry, Mike

 

[Don Ferrette]

One inch is definitely not too high off the water if the boat is set up correctly. Hmmmm, wonder how I know that? Set the strut @ 1 to 1 1/8" from transom to strut bottom where it belongs and get the CG 1" to 1.5" behind the sponson heel, the closer to 1" the better. CG of 3" behind the sponson heel is way too far back for these boats REGARDLESS of power type so before you all start telling Mike to change his boats please try the set up that has been working and working well on them.

 

[RobertWurster]

Im not sure on these sp 40s but on my 20 hull i have now i set it up at 3/4 of an inch be hind the sponson witch is about the middle of my turn fin.I have ran a few sp20s alot and i would rather have the cg a bit forward than ever back.

 

[Bert Dygert]

Mike and Don,

There is nothing wrong with the ML boat works GP-400 product. I was asking quesion about making it a better race boat. I asked Mike about his thoughts about lowering the ride height of the hull. The hull is fast as all get out. I would not hesitate to run this hull in record trails. It's like running Nascar lose is quick and you'are on the edge. But I;'m looking for race boat.

When I P/M'ed Mike this is exactly what I did not want to happen. He chose to make it public. Now I regret I even asking the question. My intentions were to help Mike make a better product and give him feedback. Now I have people that say I can't set-up a boat. The three inches was a bad estimate on my behalf. Look at the pictures and draw your own conclusions.

I'm out. No more discussion input from me.

Don, Leave this post until tomorrow night. Then please remove this post Saturday morning. I started the post and now I am chosing to end it.

Bert Dygert

 

[Don Ferrette]

Bert, I don't see anyone saying you can't set up a boat and we know better than that. Just PLEASE give the recommended set up a try as they are designed to run with a zero attack angle in the tunnel, the 1" to 1 1/8" strut depth puts you there. These are different animals and the conventional mindset that seems to be the "norm" needs to be let go. I have personally seen these boats run and know that when set up as recommended they are fast and stable. I quit running sport 40 years ago but have been so impressed with these boats that I'm going to build one for heat racing next season, that's why I asked you about that kick azz cowl you did. Take a deep breath, relax then make a couple changes and give it a try.

 

[Mike Luszcz]

I posted your problem on public forum to guide others in setting it up properly. Then I have Doug Shepard calling me saying the sponsons need cut down, I explain to him everything and why, he accepts that and says OK, we will do that..then two days later Joe gets on here and says the same thing..and doesn't even own one of these boats! I don't get that.

You know what, I had this big long post I was about to click enter with, and I decided I would just delete it, and move on. You do what you have to do, and I will do what I have to do. I'm sick of it all, all the sport hydroplanes are now not for sale anymore, and the scales might be soon to follow. I have had to defend my reputation way to many people at this point, and I still get a big lack of respect from people I thought were here to help, and every day another one of them proves me wrong. Its not just people I don't know anymore either, its people that I thought were on my side. After 5 years, I still get the same BS about not heat racing...You guys are right, I sit in my garage, build boats, then put them on the shelf and stare at them. The months of R&D testing in all kinds of weather accounts for nothing. I look for poor conditions to test in. Looks like the only way to properly test is having 5 other boats around me, detracting me from focusing on MY boat design, and how its running sounds like the proper way to tell if a boat will heat race...that is the biggest load of garbage I have ever heard. Until I get a little respect, I'm done with this crap. I am not to bold at this point to say I deserve some respect. If people don't like it, tough. Tell Doug I am refunding his money as soon as I click Post.

 

[P THOMAS]

Gee Mike cool off, I know how much thought you have put into your boats and have done many changes to make them better. Not many people would do that and just put out the boats as on the plan and let everyone figure it out.

No matter how much time you spend at the races if your boats work they work and the customers will come back for more.

The real salesmen are your boats on the water wining heat races. Dont let anyone get you down cause they think they know it all.

Your going to have changes done to your kits cause everyone likes to experiment.

 

[Rick Larocque]

I don't get what the problem is here. Nobody said you don't know how to set up a boat. I think they are saying that this hull is different and it sets up different. When the hull designer and a few people that have successfully set the hull up to run very well are telling you exactly how and why to set it up maybe you should swallow the ego a tad and possibly give it a try. Then if it still does not work THEN start listening to the GURUS and EXPERTS that don't even own one and try what they are telling you. I know when I buy a new hull and the designer- builder is good enough to tell me the set up secrets I usually listen. Just a thought and an opinion. Mike, just keep doing what you are good at and don't let them get you down. You make a great product and are a bonus to the hobby.

Rick

 

[Bert Dygert]

Mike,

Your reaction is exactly what I was trying to avoid. You have done a great deal to promote Scale and sport hulls. To lose that would be a huge shame for RC boating. Keep doing what you are doing Mike. The sport boat is very good hull. Can't speak for the scale I have not built one yet. But the way your sport hull goes together is what this sport means to prosper( never said I could spell).

As far as my boat set-up. Fuel tanks(twin 8 ounces) swapped around and moved three inch forward to forward bulkhead. Left sponsom tip 1 ounce of lead(17 ounce canlever effect). Strut at 1.25 inches with additional slot to 1.35 (if needed). Removed 5.3 ounces of lead from the radio box. Have a new Virginia Craftsmen Sport 40 turn fin(little more hook).Testing Sunday afternoon weather permitting.

Bert

 

[anthony_marquart]

thanks what we I wanted to hear..

 

[Dasboatman]

Hey Mike,

I was rather enjoying reading Bert's comments about how his Nitro 40 GP400 was performing. I believe his is the first nitro version to hit the water. You have made hulls available to many that would previously only had Phil's SS45 readily available for a nitro Sport 40, and not many are willing to cut all those frames from Roger's plans for Scale boats. It appears to me that the only really pertinent comments in this thread are coming from Bert - he actually has a hulls, with nitro power. The rest of the comments are pure conjecture. The hull will be different at 8 pounds then it is at 11 and some change may end up being needed. So be it.

You're not the only hull provider that has been questioned or challenged on this "Talk Show". I have read threads attacking people like Rod Geraghty and why he did as he and David Hall did in designing the JAE hulls. Rod has earned the respect of many within the boating community over many years. Rod doesn't need to defend his hull designs but he has tried to with some of these Keyboard boaters. As far as I can see, the JAE outrigger has spurred an interest in nitro boats that was needed, and there are many more nitro boats on the water.

Ask Phil how many other Sport 40 prototypes he has built over the last few years. That old ~ 1978 vintage SS45, now with a bottom revision, is still the one he sells. I have an old Friend that designed, built and raced outriggers. monos , and Sport 60s for many years - Don Pinckert. He has had all kinds of people question his designs over the years as have Andy Brown, Tim Rees, and all other designers.

Providing any product to a market is a tough business. You have offered a poduct that is under development trying to fit into two diferent area - Electric and Nitro. Few of the comments in this thread are coming from anyone offering an equivalent product up for consideration.

Keep up the good work Mike. You'll never be able to please all the people all the time. If they don't like your product, let them develop their own. We both know that is not likely to happen.

CHEERS !!! Bob

 

[brad nichols]

There will always be someone out there that think they have a better idea and so be it. You offer a starting point for a setup that works. People that have had lots of experience may differ from that and let them. The real problem is when someone tells people that the boat doesn't run right after they have done a bunch of mods, without the proper starting point!! People are always going to experiment!! You build a great product that will get people into the hobby, that otherwise would not attempt such a build, be it scale or sport hydro. Your kits go together easy and as long as they are built straight and square, with recomended setup should run great right away!! I say thanks for the Great contribution you make to this hobby!!!!

 

[P THOMAS]

Ask Phil how many other Sport 40 prototypes he has built over the last few years. That old ~ 1978 vintage SS45, now with a bottom revision, is still the one he sells

CHEERS !!! Bob

Come on Bob Its not that old, HA. Started bulding those about 1990 and revised the hull about 92 for newer cowlings. It is a good boat that has developed thru the years and the setup has adapted to better props and motors. There have been some boats that didnt last long or never saw the light of day too trying to make a better s40.