I wonder if Mr. Picco runs modified engine

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Kez

Well-Known Member
Joined
Feb 27, 2003
Messages
1,230
Disclaimer: By no means am I challanging any engine guru with this post. Merely bringing up a few mods I often see for discussion.

I seldom buy used engine but with poor parts availability of K&B and early Picco, I have no choice but to get a few to keep my aging fleet going. It is in these pre-owned engines and what I see at the ponds that prompt me to start this post.

It appears to me that a lot of boaters would either modify or pay to have their engine modified. I can't help but wonder whether many of the mods are effective or counter productive. I will list a few for discussion.

1. Enlarging the mounting hole: Just about every used engine I bought had the mounting lugs drilled out to 8-32, or 10-32 on larger engines. Why would anyone feel that anything less than a size 10 bolt can not harness the engine? It would not cost the engine manufacturer anything to drill to that size hole if they think it was necessary. In my opinion, drilling out the lug to 10-32 would actually weaken the lugs as there will not be much material left.

2. Changing the timing: I have bought a K&B with pretty extreme timing cut into the exhaust and transfer ports. My thinking: if milling out a couple of thou off the ports will greatly increased the power of the engine, K&B would have it? I trust that any manufacturer would have put a reasonable R&D effort to come up with the best timing.

3. Turboing the crank: Will it really buy anything? The crank couterweight is design to balance the recipricating mass of the piston and rod. Most .21 (front intake) engines I own do not have enough counterweight. Cutting away material from the crank will only make it worse and possibly result in more vibration. I do believe in "packing" the crankcase to help fuel draw but I do not think turboing the crank will help in this department.

I believe in blue-printing the engine. By blue printing I mean to take it apart, clean the parts of all debris, check for fits, deck clearance etc and re-assemble it. The only one mod I have found necessary was to balance the rotor of some OS, Picco and K&Bs. Some of those were so out of balance that the rotor pins wore out quickly.

After running some of the "modified" engines I acquired, I have not observed any performance gain over my stockers. I always wonder if Mr. Picco himself run his engine stock. Anyone knows? If he modified them, why would he not implement the mods in his production engines?

Kez
 
After running some of the "modified" engines I acquired, I have not observed any performance gain over my stockers. I always wonder if Mr. Picco himself run his engine stock. Anyone knows? If he modified them, why would he not implement the mods in his production engines?

Kez

If anyone would know it would be Mr. Jack O'Donnell ;)

Don :)
 
Production engines will always be a compromise that falls short of optimum ...

Blue printing the perfect fit and finish takes time .... * You want to pay how much for an engine ?

Conservative timing specs control ultimate HP and RPM limits .... * Factory sure does not want failures !

The power band of the production engine must fall some place pretty generic satisfying those who will prop large and torque the engine, yet be able to make decent rpm for those in speedier higher rpm applications .... * can't satisfy everyone

**If doing mods really did not increase the power, we would have no tuners finding great success doing them ... * Nuff said :D

If you can't see or find the difference between a stock or modified engine .... You are lacking the ability of tuning and set up.

JMO <_<
 
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Disclaimer: By no means am I challanging any engine guru with this post. Merely bringing up a few mods I often see for discussion.
I seldom buy used engine but with poor parts availability of K&B and early Picco, I have no choice but to get a few to keep my aging fleet going. It is in these pre-owned engines and what I see at the ponds that prompt me to start this post.

It appears to me that a lot of boaters would either modify or pay to have their engine modified. I can't help but wonder whether many of the mods are effective or counter productive. I will list a few for discussion.

1. Enlarging the mounting hole: Just about every used engine I bought had the mounting lugs drilled out to 8-32, or 10-32 on larger engines. Why would anyone feel that anything less than a size 10 bolt can not harness the engine? It would not cost the engine manufacturer anything to drill to that size hole if they think it was necessary. In my opinion, drilling out the lug to 10-32 would actually weaken the lugs as there will not be much material left.

2. Changing the timing: I have bought a K&B with pretty extreme timing cut into the exhaust and transfer ports. My thinking: if milling out a couple of thou off the ports will greatly increased the power of the engine, K&B would have it? I trust that any manufacturer would have put a reasonable R&D effort to come up with the best timing.

3. Turboing the crank: Will it really buy anything? The crank couterweight is design to balance the recipricating mass of the piston and rod. Most .21 (front intake) engines I own do not have enough counterweight. Cutting away material from the crank will only make it worse and possibly result in more vibration. I do believe in "packing" the crankcase to help fuel draw but I do not think turboing the crank will help in this department.

I believe in blue-printing the engine. By blue printing I mean to take it apart, clean the parts of all debris, check for fits, deck clearance etc and re-assemble it. The only one mod I have found necessary was to balance the rotor of some OS, Picco and K&Bs. Some of those were so out of balance that the rotor pins wore out quickly.

After running some of the "modified" engines I acquired, I have not observed any performance gain over my stockers. I always wonder if Mr. Picco himself run his engine stock. Anyone knows? If he modified them, why would he not implement the mods in his production engines?

Kez
Kez; I know for a fact, that Mr. Picco is running the same engines he is selling to the public. J.ODonnell
 
Disclaimer: By no means am I challanging any engine guru with this post. Merely bringing up a few mods I often see for discussion.
I seldom buy used engine but with poor parts availability of K&B and early Picco, I have no choice but to get a few to keep my aging fleet going. It is in these pre-owned engines and what I see at the ponds that prompt me to start this post.

It appears to me that a lot of boaters would either modify or pay to have their engine modified. I can't help but wonder whether many of the mods are effective or counter productive. I will list a few for discussion.

1. Enlarging the mounting hole: Just about every used engine I bought had the mounting lugs drilled out to 8-32, or 10-32 on larger engines. Why would anyone feel that anything less than a size 10 bolt can not harness the engine? It would not cost the engine manufacturer anything to drill to that size hole if they think it was necessary. In my opinion, drilling out the lug to 10-32 would actually weaken the lugs as there will not be much material left.

2. Changing the timing: I have bought a K&B with pretty extreme timing cut into the exhaust and transfer ports. My thinking: if milling out a couple of thou off the ports will greatly increased the power of the engine, K&B would have it? I trust that any manufacturer would have put a reasonable R&D effort to come up with the best timing.

3. Turboing the crank: Will it really buy anything? The crank couterweight is design to balance the recipricating mass of the piston and rod. Most .21 (front intake) engines I own do not have enough counterweight. Cutting away material from the crank will only make it worse and possibly result in more vibration. I do believe in "packing" the crankcase to help fuel draw but I do not think turboing the crank will help in this department.

I believe in blue-printing the engine. By blue printing I mean to take it apart, clean the parts of all debris, check for fits, deck clearance etc and re-assemble it. The only one mod I have found necessary was to balance the rotor of some OS, Picco and K&Bs. Some of those were so out of balance that the rotor pins wore out quickly.

After running some of the "modified" engines I acquired, I have not observed any performance gain over my stockers. I always wonder if Mr. Picco himself run his engine stock. Anyone knows? If he modified them, why would he not implement the mods in his production engines?

Kez
When you change the timing numbers you carry the engine into another RPM level.( you have just removed the intented Govoner for the engine). It is very very important Now that you govoner the engine by the prop load if you have raised the Exhaust timing & the intake timing & if you miss on the prop load & over Rev the engine? You have a Mad customer that believes he has a warranty problem. All engine have there favorite pipe & length, the boat load determines what will be the best base line prop. Many other types of 2 strokes govoner the engine by intake restrictor plates. many 4 strokes limit valve spring tension, this will float the valves if the rpm is exceeded & the engine stops making more RPM.

Even the best Mods are good for Only 5-7 mph. Only needed if you are in heat racing. I have found diff pipes that will give 3-5 mph.
 
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Thanks all for your replies. I agreed with most but my question still is:

If there is a "killer mod" that boost the power of a stock engine, why wouldn't the manufacturer incorporate it? I agreed with manufacturer do not want failure, but I am sure they know power sells and that boaters would accept part replacement as a fact of life in this hobby. I am sure if there is a proven mod, they would have incorporated it.

I am sure the timing change effectiveness is debatable. And I will admit I do not have enough knowledge to discuss this at a meaningful level. Other mods I have seen, however, are really questionable. And most of the modify jobs I have seen are nothing short of a hack job.

I wonder how many of the mods are feel-good mods.

If a stock Picco is good enough for Mr. Picco, it is good enough for me.

Kez
 
Just for grins, look at a 21 marine NovaRossi piston and sleeve from a engine 10 years ago and one of a current model. You WILL see major porting differences between the two and is because of improvements in the designs for flow. NR currently makes 5, 7 & 9 port engines so it is not exactly apples to apples but a 7 port engine will give you the indication that I am talking about.

The mfg's will not put in the high mods as they have a tendency to shorten the life of the engine and they do not want that reputation. So they stay conservative. There are some engines are excellent right out of the box and others that need help.

I see some improvements from the new Picco 45 blues and the former blackheads. Mostly in the rod and in the flow and porting.
 
Thanks all for your replies. I agreed with most but my question still is:
If there is a "killer mod" that boost the power of a stock engine, why wouldn't the manufacturer incorporate it? I agreed with manufacturer do not want failure, but I am sure they know power sells and that boaters would accept part replacement as a fact of life in this hobby. I am sure if there is a proven mod, they would have incorporated it.

I am sure the timing change effectiveness is debatable. And I will admit I do not have enough knowledge to discuss this at a meaningful level. Other mods I have seen, however, are really questionable. And most of the modify jobs I have seen are nothing short of a hack job.

I wonder how many of the mods are feel-good mods.

If a stock Picco is good enough for Mr. Picco, it is good enough for me.

Kez



fact is,, majority of the targeted boating community would not accept part failure....like grim said recently,, "he would be hung for letting things like this fly",, there would be more complaints about the failures, then compliments about the added power....people would see it more as a manufacturing defect.. then it costs them dough....they do plenty of r&d for sure,,but it is to get the best performance with the longevity,,, not best performance and ahh well if it snaps a rod in 3 quarts thats the nature of the beast...

i consider modified to be anything other than stock configuration... now if you ask a ton of people what is one of the first things they do to a engine,,, you will typically here ,,"removed the head shim",,or "set the head clearence " well,,, you just modified the engine... its a proven fact setting head clearence or removing shims increases power... if it didnt,,, you wouldnt see people doing it... i can agree that some things,,( turbo crank),, is questionable and mostly just looks hacked... timing will increase rpm and hp,, as in any 2 srtoke engine,,,significantly???,, somtimes if mated to the right pipe, and length...

moral is,,, if it didnt make a difference why would guy's like,, rod gereghty,,james clegg,,, frank orlic,,glenn quarles,,steve wood,,chris wood,, etc. bother with it..

btw,,, glenn quarles specifically requested novarossi to raise the timing in the new .12's and they did just that,,, now all his .12's are already modified from novarossi them selves... rod had done lots of research on that part of those engines and came up with what you see martin truex's boat running...

alden
 
I agree with most on this topic, but I can tell you that head shape/volume/squish width have a ton to do with how well an engine performs. If you are looking to get as much as you can from an engine, there are significant gains to be made via optimizing everything.

I concentrate on fit, head button configuration, pipe, prop and setup.
 
i think alot of engine set up has to do with what boat via hydro, mono, tunnel ect.

for the most part what works in a hydro will not work in others and vis versa.

so when my father works on motors one of the questons asked is what are you putting this in.

i think that in itself is a big part of what is done to motors. but i could be wrong

chris
 
I do not consider blue printing as a kind of mod. Blue printing include setting clearance, P/S fit, bearing fit deck height etc. Nor do I consider installing aftermarket parts (conrod, carb etc) as mod.

The kind of mod I refer to involved physically modifying the stock parts. Taking a Dremel to the ports, drill out the mounting lugs to accept larger bolts, and cutting Turbo in the crank.

I hate it when I bought a used engine with the mounting lug drilled to size 10 !! Or someone cut a grove in the crank. or filling out the port to increase timing etc. Personally, I believe some of the mods are merely feel-good mod and in reality do little to increase performance.

While I agree manufacturers who gear their products towards the sport boaters do not want failure, manufacturers of high end engines like Picco, MAC, Picco, NR etc should realize they are targeting a different market. If one make of engine produced significantly more power over the others, I am sure they have no problem selling them even though the life expentency may not be as long as a sport engine.

Now I wonder if Andy Brown runs his MAC stock ;-)

kez
 
Kez

here is one for you...

Novarossi have driver engine's for the sponsored driver's,

when they receive them they are pinned, that means they can not open engine to inspect.

because they are modded to the next level....

trust me they go harder,

regards Aaron
 
You should see some of the small tricks in V-6 Mercury race motors that yield HUGE gains in top end and mid range power . Clearancing the rod slot area for more directed flow toward transfer and rear boost ports is the biggest area for improvement much like what has to be done on big block CMB 90's and the like . Todays motors are modified when compared to older ones ...it's all development . Look at a stock Mac 84 .......until Andy included all the trick stuff they have into a STOCK motor you had to pay big bucks for a motor that had all the features a Mac has ..and now CMB HMMMMMM. Can of worms officially OPEN !!!!!!
 
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You should see some of the small tricks in V-6 Mercury race motors that yield HUGE gains in top end and mid range power . Clearancing the rod slot area for more directed flow toward transfer and rear boost ports is the biggest area for improvement much like what has to be done on big block CMB 90's and the like . Todays motors are modified when compared to older ones ...it's all development . Look at a stock Mac 84 .......until Andy included all the trick stuff they have into a STOCK motor you had to pay big bucks for a motor that had all the features a Mac has ..and now CMB HMMMMMM. Can of worms officially OPEN !!!!!!

I will share this pic of a Simpson modded liner on a gold head 90 CMB -

I'm sure Foley will attest to the benefits of this mod- ;)

You will be hard pressed to find the craftsmanship and time spent on this liner.......

And NO its not just for looks- :rolleyes:

Just another way to skin a cat...

Simpson_liner_.JPG
 
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QVC jewelry :lol: :lol: Just breaking your shoes Andy. Ive seen Sims stuff run. B) B)

I WISH-

that I could find someone with the talent to make the one on the left match it :rolleyes:

He went about it with a little different approach IMHO.

Andy
 
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