Electronic lapscoring idea's.

[TimD]

Lapscoring - what is your club using, and what steps can a club take to automate the process? Transponder systems like cars would be the obvious choice but the need to run a wire loop causes a new set of issues and so on. I know some places in Europe have run with a suspended transponder loop - how effective is this system (particularly with the larger rigger classes etc. and rooster tails / prop wash.

What about a system that does not rely on a loop? Anything out there that could be adapted?

I don't have any particular thing in mind but I'd thought I'd start up a thread and see if we can come up with some ideas B)

 

[Scott Schneider]

:lol: As with all things related to RC boats, the KISS principle comes to mind. ( KISS is Keep it Simple Stupid) Not to be a joke, Sorry. 6 boats in a heat require 6 pairs of eyes with each person watching ONE boat and counting laps with penalities being considered.

You add fancy lap counters and the transponders in every boat that competes you add major cost to an allready over priced format.

Electronic lap timing equipment is GREAT, But counters, I think not. Scott

 

[TimD]

You add fancy lap counters and the transponders in every boat that competes you add major cost to an allready over priced format.
Electronic lap timing equipment is GREAT, But counters, I think not. Scott

Cost of transponders or similar is something that would have to be considered. Definately. Good point Scott B)

I can't see any reason why electronic timing equipment and lapscoring can't be combined. It gets rid of the human error part of the equation. 9 times out of 10 disputed race scoring / results come back to human error (usually the person watching the particular boat) The other thing that happens with the button system we use is that the button fails or more common is the person forgets to press the button or uses the wrong button.

The systems used for triathlon look like a possibility - non powered transponders and waterproof. Still relies on a loop tho' Doh!

 

[GTR]

Hi Guy's

While I would agree that updating the way things are done would be good the price of a transponder system is prohibitive. AMB are the ones used by the cars and a bunch of others but I think at last count they were something like $3,000 for a set of 24. On some of the little riggers I can't see people being happy to carry an extra 2Oz. Good thought though.

GT

 

[Ron Olson]

Ric Carpenter was working on an electronic scoring system a few years back. I saw it once in the back of his van but never saw it in use. It had the loop inside of some PVC tubing that was suspended under the water. Ric can explain the setup a lot better than I could.

 

[rctinman]

Hey Folks..

I.M.P.B.A. owned an AMB system for years. Was used at a few of the Nats, and at the Hydromasters. This system works great for cars, but not worth a hoot for boats. A pain to set up, and you still needed someone to watch so the computer counted every lap. A lot of uncounted starts and laps.

The I.M.P.B.A. sold the system.

Steve Ball

 

[RaceCraftBearings]

As Steve Ball states we have used the AMB in the IMPBA. I personally used it at several Internats and it just doesnt quite do the trick as well as it does with the cars. I have also used it when I ran cars in the 80's where it worked very well.

Radio Control Event Manager (RaCE Manager) is an area where I am looking at developing an electronic counting system if I can get enough interested parties.

I have posted this program for sale on this forum (see For Sale folder and look for the post: Heat Racing and High Points Tracking Software - Windows Compatible Software) I am hoping to get some replies or at least some inquiries about the program. The software is being used across the US and Abroad at present time so hopefully it will eventually catch on as the premeire Event Managment program. The system that I hope to incorperate for lap counting will not add any cost or any object to the contestants boats if at all possible. Mind you that the price of coding and testing this type of system will take some cash and would most likely be an add on to the Race Manager so that I can keep the cost down for those who wish not to electronically count laps. I will require some good solid numbers of people wanting to purchase the program and the lap counting system before I can justify the extra cost to develop it.

Happy Holidays.........Ron Byrd

 

[TimD]

The loop is, as I suspected appears to be the main drawback to the AMB system. It is also a very expensive system. It is not the only option I want to consider tho'.

The purpose of this post is to explore possible alternatives....

A submerged loop would be susceptible to retrieve boat propellors and I imagine it would be less effective than a loop in the air.

Other alternatives to the loop system have to be out there - what do other sports etc. use?

Some tracking systems use a compination of "collector stations" and calculate location by the time required for the signal to locate each collector and then plot the location mathematically. this happens in the millionth of a second type of timeframe but I think it would be too clumsy for 6 boats at speed.

Looking closely at what a transponder is - it is a device that is basically a receiver, and when it receives a signal to turn on it transmits it's own "signature" which is received by the timing equipment, then turns itself off. The AMB transponders have a self contained battery in them. Essentially we could do away with this by using our RX packs (they draw less current than a servo) and therefore reduce the weight. Everyone would have the same wieght penalty anyway - no big deal!

Range also appears to be a limitation to the AMB style transponder. I suspect this could be due to them running on only 1.3VDC. With 6 volts from our RX packs we have more voltage there at our disposal. Perhaps this could allow for a loop to be placed higher above the water. The transponders used in marathons / running are small enough to fit inside a running shoe with a foot in it and do not use a battery at all!

As you can see by Ron's post - the software side of it is within grasp. We just need to work out a method of collecting that data and the software does the rest. I know as a contest director that this sort of management would solve a lot of drama - plus you could look at your lap times etc on a print out for feedback on setup etc that would be more consistent than anyone could do with a stopwatch!

Enough of my ranting! More feedback please

 

[CySlyde]

I have been working on a system for some rc car members.. right now tho it requires one person who is good at typing or a 10 key. I am working on a button system, but it is proving to be quite a headache. i may just adapt a configurable game pad to do it but it would still require someone with some skill at game pads to keep it acurate, and it would be a little more limited on the number of rcs running. the reason i am working on this is because the miniz's and micro rcs they race are too small for most types of transponders. we were using a laser and flag method, however the rooster tails would prolly make this type of system inaccurate.. plus it would have to account for waves. if anybody is intersted, i may be persuaded to give out a few trial copies of the next release due out end of janurary. the program will run on any windows system, and is quite compact, but you will still need some system to keep track scores after races. btw the next one should include individual lap times, not just total time

-=Cy

Edit i forgot to mention it would still require somebody to spot and access penalties

 

[mark poole]

The first race that my team attends in dist. 13 next year......I am going to bring something so simple and practical for counting laps you all will forget about this electronic stuff. Heck, maybe I should patent it before I bring it. Yes it will meet the criteria for Keep it Simple Stupid.

 

[DaveMarles]

We use the AMB lapscoring system at big races in Europe and we just bought the system for our own races in UK. There are 2 types of transponders. The self powered ones which are the clip on type or the tiny ones which I use that are powered from the receiver battery.

The loop wires need to be 38 cm above the water at each end with a 15 kg weight on them to keep the wires 34 to 36 cm above the water in the centre. This is fine for all our boats and that includes the 35cc boats they run here which are huge.

Everything runs from a laptop computer linked to the AMB box and requires one person to run the system itself.

We are encouraging racers to buy their own mini transponders but we do hire out or lend transponders too.

Dave

 

[Stein Tumert]

The Norwegian Model Power Boat Association (NMPBA) has used the AMB system with the wire loop above the water for several years with fairly good results for heatracing (outriggers and offshore models). We have up to now used the transponders with built in battery. We are currently evaluating the "Sparc 2" software from AMB for complete event management.

Best regards,

Stein Tumert

NMPBA ( www.nmsbf.org )

More info about AMB at

www.amb-us.com

http://www.amb-it.com/amb.asp

 

[Wild Bill]

Hi Tim.

You know we have discussed this issue for years at our AMPBA AGM's.

This year I will be presenting, at our AGM, a prototype of the system we have been developing for 4 years.

Runs on UHF, NO loop antenna, can identify broken starts, times each competitor (lap times and race time), counts each competitors laps, has a scan facility to register each competitor at a race meeting, does have an 'on-board' device running on boats battery power, unit would be purchased by competitor and each competitor would have their own frequency for life and would identify all their boats.

The fully integrated unit is just about to be fitted to a number of boats to undergo extensive testing before release. Looking at mid to end next year to finalise. It is hoped we will be running our next nats with the system.

Still need to examine the costs aspects but the (for want of a better word) transponder unit in the boat will be affordable to all. Not big bucks.

What flight are you on? I'm on Qantas 739 on Saturday at 8:10. Might see you at airport.

Bill Annabel

President - Australian Model Power Boating Association

 

[TimD]

Just got off the phone to Bill!

All I can say about the system under development is WOW! if it works as planned it will be awesome for boat racing, and most likely cars also.

The transponders are going to be small enough to fit in a 21 rigger and will be cheap.....

Setup will also be simple if the club is already using a computer. Can't wait to see it!

Cy,

we might already be using a manual system that might interest you. It uses 1 button per boat - facilitates 6 per race and uses the RS232 port - program runs in DOS. Been using it for many years.

Tim.

 

[CySlyde]

yeah i'd be interested, i know i have seen them before, but was unable to find them.. i guess i keep trying to reinvent the prop so to say, th problem i have been having tho may be with my programming, when two buttons get pushed at once it doesn't record either button. but if you do it on th keys you can hit 8 at a time and it recognizes all of them. course it could also be my poor electronics knowledge... hehe

nayways if you got a link i would be very interested

-=Cy

 

[TimD]

Nah- it was custom made by one of our club members.

 

[CySlyde]

hmm might he know where i could find schematics or how to for it online? or would he be willing to share his schematics.. you can give him my email, it's th same name as here @earthlink.net

thanx

-=Cy

 

[mark poole]

I would like to know why you guys are so bent on doing this. Do you realize memberships are down? Do you realize that it is becoming harder and harder to find water to run on, for people to put on races and do everything that already has to be done under the rule book?? WHY do you want to overcomplicate this hobby?? Why do you want to make it more troublesome and more expensive for a club to set up and race?? Are there people cheating in your club and at the races?? Deal with THEM. If there are the required number of people on the judges stand and the spotters are made to count like they are supposed to.......you don't need this system. OH..you want to know how fast your boat is going? Get yourself a radar gun or go to a record trial event. Can I get some answers??

 

[CySlyde]

well as far as i go, i don't race... yet...

I made the program for a group of friends with small rc cars, so thy could keep track of racers. to tell you the truth i don't care if it gets used or not, just something else for me to occupy my time with until the water gets soft again. also i have run my program on a pentium lap top running windows 95, I can find those for a couple hunderd $. also maybe part of the reason memberships are down is because of the resistance to adapt, and change to the newer technologies. just a thought

 

[TimD]

I would like to know why you guys are so bent on doing this. Do you realize memberships are down? Do you realize that it is becoming harder and harder to find water to run on, for people to put on races and do everything that already has to be done under the rule book?? WHY do you want to overcomplicate this hobby?? Why do you want to make it more troublesome and more expensive for a club to set up and race?? Are there people cheating in your club and at the races?? Deal with THEM. If there are the required number of people on the judges stand and the spotters are made to count like they are supposed to.......you don't need this system. OH..you want to know how fast your boat is going? Get yourself a radar gun or go to a record trial event. Can I get some answers??

Mark,`

I cannot speak for other clubs but I have been heavily involved with the running of regular club race days and also major events here in Australia for the last few years including a Nationals.

Our club and several others use a computerised system that requires the pitman to press a button each time the boat crosses the line. Each race is over-seen by a CD.

The problems we have encounted over the last few years of using this system are basically disputed results or failure of the pitman to press the button or the pitman isusing the wrong lane button and this "skewing" the results for the score or the CD. Surely the CD can not be expected to know what every boat for each driver looks like and can therefore see if someone is pressing the incorrect button. Another thing that would be resolved with electronic timing is jumped start disputes. Ultimately this is not such a big deal IF people wouldn't give the CD s#!t for calling someone as jumped etc.

The other big reason I can see for wanting a system like this is that it makes it easier for all club members to take turns at running a race meeting. The last 18 months for me racing was loosing it's appeal because I'd end up having to run a meeting and hardly get to run my own boats. The excuse was "I don't know how to do it" even though it was not difficult to do. Plus getting people dispute your calls gets you down..... I almost sold off all my gear because of this..... And as you said - numbers are declining - I was almost 1 of them.

Having been involved in car racing and have used transponder systems / software I can see the definate advantages to doing things smarter / easier. Most clubs have computuers already for race managent programs such as the one Ron Sells and others... They could be utilised in a better way.

You are right in that the numbers are dropping - I can say from personal experience that newbies are turned off boat racing by turning up to a race day and having to witness the rantings of individuals about CD's calls etc.

I do not see using an electronic system as overcomplicating this hobby. Quite the contrary. May I suggest you go and watch the way a car race is scored and see how many disputes there are - Systems used over 10 years ago in cars are still more advanced than the way we do things here.

If you feel you have the answers for these issues - I'd be only too glad to hear what you have and will present it to my club. I am open minded about any suggestions to improve the way things are done.

Hope these answer your questions :unsure: