electronic ignition

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im very keen, would you be using a reluctor pick off a magnet in the flywheel??

i want 4 if the price is right and 4 spare plugs! the twin will really benifit from this,

also on the efi thing, i can do this very easly and would be able to tie it into this ignation system, i can get comptuters made by microtech (one of the biggest selling systems in australia 80% market share) they can make me a single channel system that will run up to 4 injectors, fuel pump and injectors seem to be the only problem.

Dale
 
Eagle,

Pre-ignition can start at the edges of the piston and head if the squish clearance is not set properly. My point was I frequently have had engines running with no element in the plug, and by changing to a cone lock plug I could raise my compression 10 points! If the compression is high enough the motor will fire like a diesel, ie it doesn't need the plug. So I guess it does start in thin air..... ;D

Ian.
 
Ian,

I was going to say the same thing but you beat me to it. The compression of the air / fuel mix can cause the pre-ignition. Think of a contra-piston arangement in a diesel.

Tim.
 
im very keen, would you be using a reluctor pick off a magnet in the flywheel??

i want 4 if the price is right and 4 spare plugs! the twin will really benifit from this,

also on the efi thing, i can do this very easly and would be able to tie it into this ignation system, i can get comptuters made by microtech (one of the biggest selling systems in australia 80% market share) they can make me a single channel system that will run up to 4 injectors, fuel pump and injectors seem to be the only problem.

Dale
it will use something very similar,what is called a hall effect trigger.the magnet you talk about needs a reed relay and those devices would not keep up with the high speed according to the electronics engineer.the price I don`t know yet.......matbe around 150 to 200 us$ apiece and the plugs I am guessing around the same price a glow plug is.I still am going to do some heavy r&d with some people to see if it really is going to give some performance gains before I release it to the public.I am really just seeing what people think about such a system since everybody is sucha skeptic!
 
Look at it this way, Eagle--if it works and goes like gangbusters, even the skeptics will want them!

Give it a shot.......!

BTW-- a minimum compression ratio of 17:1 is required to ignite diesel, and 22:1 to get efficient flash (burn)...anybody know what the minimum is for our fuels?
 
EAGLE

I DON'T WANT YOU TO THINK I DON'T WANT YOU TO TRY IT.. JUST MEARLY ASKING ABOUT THE FUEL INJECTION..

I THINK THE IDEA IS GOOD.. BUT I ALSO FEEL THERE IS MORE BENIFITS TO THE FUEL INJECTION IF IT WAS TO BE FIGURED OUT....

GOOD LUCK AND KEEP US POSTED
 
I tried to talk to andy today and he seemed very interested in the device so he is supposed to call the first of next week so maybe if he thinks its a go ahead project then its on............and I did give the fuel injection a chance and thought about it and maybe I just might have figured that out too so I just might be on the verge of changing the whole industry!
 
Thats not true efi,

all that is doing is changing the needle settings according to exhaust temp and engine temp, not a bad idea really

Dale
 
twin_k90 has got the right idea by using an o2 sensor coupled with a egt guage would give a fairly accurate idea of mixture but the problem is developing an o2 sensor the is able to use on nitro,which is not all that hard.I say build my device coupled to a computerized efi,that would solve alot of tuning hassles.I figure make the injector and my plug theory all in one unit that screws into a standard glow plug spot."how bout it"
 
i have a sensor for my car that will work with them, it is a bosch LSM11 costs over $300au for a new one!!
 
Sorry to rain on the ol parade......

I think you should be forgetting the spark ignition part of it unless you plan on converting to petrol. One of the parameters that specifies the engines we run is "glow ignition". As soon as you introduce a spark you now have an illegal motor.

Injection on the other hand... you get it to work and you will be wearing diamonds....

EMS Racing speed?? Just say N2O...
 
well fellas you just might be getting your fuel injection unit.just talked with my electronics engineer and he says he can build a prototype that can be used universally with our fuels of course will cost a small fortune to make but takes money to make money!
 
EAGLE

EAT MY SHORTS HAD A POINT THAT I FORGOT ALL ABOUT..

AND AM CURIOUS HOW YOU CAN GE AROUND IT.. IN THE RULES THE MOTOR MUST BE A GLOW IGNITION.. IF THIS DEVISE THAT YOU WANT TO BUILD IS A SPARK OF SOME SORT... THEN WE CAN'T RUN IT.. AM I ON THE SAME PAGES AS YOU???

IF IT IS IN FACT GLOW... COOL LETS DO IT..

ONE ? I HAVE THOUGHT.. HOW DO YOU RETARD THE TIMING.. IT'S NOT LIKE A HEI DISTRIBUTOR ON A CAR??

HELP ME OUT ON THAT ONE..

DO YOU SET SPARK FOR A EARLIER OR LATER FIRE, AND THAT INTERN MOVES YOUR TIMING??????

CHRIS
 
you got it bud it works just like that the hall effect trigger is set at top dead center which would be o degrees timing and you set the timing either advance or retard and the computer calculates the timing and fires the plug at whatever you have the timing set at.and maybe I could use a glow plug instead of a spark and do the same thing........huh well if it does use a spark then maybe you could change to a high octane race gas and do away with a squish band and adopt to a compression dome similar to what gets used on 2 cycle dirt bikes and quads and still get more power.wwith the use of gas you could run higher comp, ratios advance the timing and still get more power and still be race legal!how about that?
 
Wow, this sure has been a talking point

Now, please don't take what I'm about to say the wrong way, I myself don't fully understand engine dynamics however I have been around many forms of race engines and would like to have a say.

I believe strongly that EFI would make a huge difference to our sport but from my experience all the research that has to take place before the practical side of things must be done.

There are many different reactions and fields that need to be looked into.

NASCAR is big business (HUGE) cost is not an issue with these guys, parity is. EFI is much more precise with tuning, the rules of NASCAR don't allow it, EFI brings with it many problems that are hard to control by the governing body. I won't go on but if they were allowed to run it they would.

The rule with our sport is glow ignition if you had the rules changed to include spark to run with glow then it would be OK, but the rule has to be sorted first.

On this point you can't run a glow plug like a spark-plug. A spark is instant, a glow plug is a heating element, it has to heat up which takes time, it is just a piece of wire that is heated, no tips or probes and all the other parts that go into a spark plug are there.

Also has anyone ever noticed the smaller something is the more it costs, eg. bearings, belts.........

This brings me to my next point, I know OS have an EFI plane engine that spins @ 17500 rpm but not a car or boat @ 30000+ rpm. I think if they could they would do it.

Back to the cost size thing.

A good EFI system for a race car costs thousands, granted you have more cylinders but this is not much of a problem.

If they cost thousands how much would it cost to make it miniature and light. I don't mean to be critical but these are the things that come to mind when I think about this topic. One more thing is even if you did it with spark engines which will work for sure, the fuel that glow engines use is what makes high compression possible. A squish chamber is on all high performance 2 strokes glow or not to some degree even if it is not visible, this is what helps to prevent the "thin air detonation" problem. Squish is just that, it squishes the fuel air mix into the centre so that the flame that burns the mix does not have to travel as far thus you get a better burn. To get high compression you need high octane fuel. High compression however is not always the best way as it becomes inefficient at higher than optimum levels so even if you got higher compression it might not be better for power. For proof of this look at current F1 engines, if you're past 14:1 you're not in the game because you can't pass enough fuel air charge to make efficient power because you can't open the valves far enough because the piston will hit so you have to either sink the valves into the head or scollup the pistons for the valve clearance, but this will reduce the compression, get my drift.

Getting the charge in and out is what makes power not just compression alone. Excessive compression makes a lot of heat.

The benefits of electronic ignition or EFI for boats is huge because of the temp and speed changes the engine goes through in 1 lap, but to get it small and light enough to overcome the weight problem that will rob power and corner speed makes me wonder whether it will out perform the current glow engines and still cost less than the family car to buy.

I almost made a very costly mistake by not fully understanding what I was doing with a business venture I took on years ago. I wouldn't want anyone to get caught out like I did. EFI will work on any engine but to make it perform well is the question that probably can't be answered unless thousands of dollars are spent and if someone is game to do it I wish them good luck and if they succeed I would congratulate them and probably buy the product. BUT WHAT IS THE COST $$$$$$$$.........
 
good call my man that helps alot but the issue of cost..........well to draw up plans,design and manufacture a prototype ignition would be approx.$3000 but that is upfront and according to the engineer cost to the public is only about $150 to 200 so in my eyes that is not bad.Do you agree Mark that to control the spark like they do with our bigger cousins,advancing timing does help for a fact regardless what fuel you run.so to design a better head button to use with our fuels coupled with this ignition system would increase performance over the standard methods and if enough people bought the product then they would change the rules.majority rules right!to build a efi is even more costly than that so in my opinion the ignition would be a good starting point and if it does work then I could thenproduce the ignition and efi in one unit and still remain small,and the small size I think the efi still is possible.just look at todays technology it can be done but like you said it does take money but a time comes for change of the better and now is a good of a time as any!chris
 
This is an interesting discussion. My NAMBA rule book only mentions ignition systems in the gasoline section. Otherwise there are NO restrictions on anything but displacement.

Lohring Miller
 
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